Coloured or neutral?

[matthewpiano]

manicm:
matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer? Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections? Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

Matthew old chap, what in Heaven's name are you doing with a Nad C521BEE??? I had the C521, and was one of the worst things I ever bought.

Don't be a tightwad and trade up please

What did you find was the problem with it?

 

[Anonymous]

JamesPianoman:dim_span:

my best speakers that I have owned have always been transmission line design

What's that then? Are my CM1s (when they arrive) going to be that? What do other speakers use?

Ta,

from the internet (a brief description):

Transmission line is a form of bass loading that uses a long folded tube or tunnel, lined with sound absorbant foam, wool or hair, to absorb the bass frequencies coming back into the cabinet from the bass driver. When implemented well (difficult) it can be very effective with deep extension, high efficiency and good quality, though you end up with somewhat large boxes.

I doubt if your CM1's are transmission design but they are good speakers!

 

[manicm]

matthewpiano:manicm:

matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer? Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections? Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

Matthew old chap, what in Heaven's name are you doing with a Nad C521BEE??? I had the C521, and was one of the worst things I ever bought.

Don't be a tightwad and trade up please

What did you find was the problem with it?

Had a nasty sibilance (before 45 mins or so of warming up), and poor stereo seperation - too centre focused.

 

[chebby]

matthewpiano:Do you think the difference will be that noticeable then?

Yes. I am also not sure I like the way that NAD use lightbulbs to dissipate heat at higher volumes.

 

[matthewpiano]

You see I've always found it to be quite wide sounding with particularly good soundstaging.

I've got a CA 340C as well and the NAD is better. I've also tried both through the MF V-DAC but I've found that sets vocals a long way back in the soundstage and makes the sound less involving overall.

The CD player will get changed though because its getting a bit old and flakey these days (I've had it quite some time) - probably to a C545BEE.

 

[Anonymous]

my limited experience has shown me that when an amp of 80 watts or more is used, the system sounds much better by far when comparing to an amp of 40-60 watts @ 8 ohm ... (I am not talking about valves or class A) ...

but then again, I am talking about older systems so not sure how it compares to more modern gear

 

[JamesPianoman]

chebby:

matthewpiano:I gather that the n-Sats have been a success then?

Two days after I installed the N-Sats I had to re-install the Rega R3's - for the guy who bought them to listen to - and was shocked at how muffled the R3's sounded! (Up until then I had deliberately not done any a/b comparison.)

Hi Chebby, how would you describe the sound of the n-Sats overall? (With what kind of music?).

 

[the record spot]

I used to think I preferred wholly neutral (or as near to it as I could get within my budget). There was some dissatisfaction with the sound of my last amp (Marantz PM6010-KI) with the current CDP and speakers and so began the process of chopping and changing amps.

I'm at the stage now where the Sansui does a decent job - it's a very musical amp - and this is where I think I've realised that a little bit of character helps. Not to the extent that I lose the essence of the recording, or the honesty surrounding it, but that I don't have to turn off bad recordings as the hi-fi is too ruthless. I want the hifi to help me enjoy listen to music, not sit and marvel at the hardware, that's not why we buy the stuff I doubt!

So, clarity, detail but not at the expense of making the music seem like music.

 

[matthewpiano]

By the way Record Spot, I owe you some thanks. It was you mentioning them so frequently that made me look into the Q Acoustics speakers. A great purchase, so thank you.

As an aside Q seems to have put a lot of thought into these speakers. For once, the links between the terminals are good quality cable links rather than the usual brass rubbish, and the spikes in the base plinth are adjustable from above, making it very easy to ensure the speakers are totally level. Q also thoughtfully supply protective covers for the spikes to ensure they don't damage the floor surface. Excellent.

 

[JamesPianoman]

the record spot:So, clarity, detail but not at the expense of making the music seem like music.

Well said, that's exactly where I hope to get to!

 

[the record spot]

matthewpiano:By the way Record Spot, I owe you some thanks. It was you mentioning them so frequently that made me look into the Q Acoustics speakers. A great purchase, so thank you.

As an aside Q seems to have put a lot of thought into these speakers. For once, the links between the terminals are good quality cable links rather than the usual brass rubbish, and the spikes in the base plinth are adjustable from above, making it very easy to ensure the speakers are totally level. Q also thoughtfully supply protective covers for the spikes to ensure they don't damage the floor surface. Excellent.

Glad you like them Matt, but I can't claim too much ahead of the guy who runs Audio Merchants in Glasgow. He was the one who gave me the lowdown on the firm and really sang their praises. That and the huge thumbs up Hi Fi World gave the the 1050i last year (good review and product of the year to go with it) along with WHFS&V's 4 star for the same speakers suggested these were a decent bet. I think the 1030i probably falls into the same category (or not far off it, it's a bit smaller for one thing!) and has a good "enjoyment" factor.

I've a lot of time for QA and hope their latest range (the 2000 series) is just as successful. Mind you, you can snag the 1050i's for £200 or less now, which is a steal IMO. All you need is a room big enough to handle 'em!

 

[matthewpiano]

The 1030i were £149. I did look at the 1050i but they are just too big for the room.

They are very much in the same vein as NAD (same distributor funnily enough) in that they are about musical enjoyment.

 

[the record spot]

That could be a really good mix with the upfront CA 650A you've got; plenty of punch from it, but kept in balance by the more analogue nature the Q's posess. £150? Very good price too.

 

[matthewpiano]

Yep. Superfi - excellent service from them again as well. Very happy customer.

I'm afraid the Cambridge isn't staying. After a lot of listening and research, NAD amplification is making a return .

 

[ear]

I agree with The Record Spot.the 650A would compliment the 1030i just fine.wont the 1030i be a bit bassy with the nad amp?only Q I've heard were the 1020i and i found they lacked a little definition on the top..if the 1030i are like that, and getting the bass level up a bit they might not be so attractive.I keep my floorstanders tangent millennium 200 bass controled by outputing the bass trough the sub.

 

[manicm]

matthewpiano:Chebby I'm losing count myself!! You are in a good position - I think the best you possibly could be. I sense that you are now able to simply enjoy the music, and that is what it is all about. I gather that the n-Sats have been a success then? I'm going all NAD. Probably to a C315BEE amp because I don't need a huge amount of power, and then a new NAD CD player to replace my ageing C521BEE. With the 1030i speakers and a NAD phono stage for the Technics I'll have a system that I hope I will settle with for at least 5 years.

I think your Technics deserves a bit better than a NAD phono stage.

 

[Anonymous]

dim_span:my limited experience has shown me that when an amp of 80 watts or more is used, the system sounds much better by far when comparing to an amp of 40-60 watts @ 8 ohm

Depends on the speakers, I would say.

Currently I'm toying with T-Amps, that has a max of 15 or 20W -- but will distort badly long before that. Still they perform nicely with the right speakers.

I've also owned ordinary amps with 20-30W that had no problems running 90dB 2-way speakers in an ordinary living room.

As for the original question:

I don't understand why so many of you seems to look at 'neutral' and 'detailed' as opposite values. Actually I suspect that 'detailled', to some people, is a description of some 'accentuating effect' caused by harmonic distortion. I've found that some producers of acoustic music recordings swear to tube equipment, probably to achieve that kind of effect.

'Neutral', in my opinion, is sound that has as little harmonic distortion as possible, as well as the flattest possible frequency response. That, and only that, let you hear the recording as it was meant to be.

'Colored' is of course mostly altered frequency response -- so if you like that, why not just buy an amp with tone controls?

When people are talking about 'warmth', I've got a strong suspicion harmonic distortion is the issue again; probably in combination with too much (mid) bass.

In short: If your equipment is 'coloured', it adds something to the original sound. If it masks the 'warts' of a bad recording, it will also, inevitably, mask the qualities of a good recording.

 

[Cypher]

I think people are to busy with terms like coloured, warmth, detailed, neutral etc.

I just bought a new Roksan Kandy LIII amp and I just LOVE the sound it makes. That's the most important thing for me.

 

[Anonymous]

Some people are content with whatever beliefs they held at the moment. Others want to find out and reflect about what they find and how they find it.

The big problems occur when people who wants to believe start to rationalize their beliefs, without the needed reflections about the finding-outs...

 

[chebby]

Fahnsen:
Some people are content with whatever beliefs they held at the moment. Others want to find out and reflect about what they find and how they find it.

The big problems occur when people who wants to believe start to rationalize their beliefs, without the needed reflections about the finding-outs...

Its home entertainment equipment, not religion or politics.

It is an amusing/interesting enough subject to chat about online, but it's not serious enough to call a 'belief' or to describe the differences in people's taste as ... "big problems". (Unless you are the manufacturer and people are not buying your gear.)

 

[Anonymous]

I'm looking for a sound that has clarity, transparency, detail with a big open airy soundstage and yet organic, fluid, and authoritative. Is this possible or just an elusive dream? Which equipment would give me this kind of sound?

 

[Anonymous]

sonus faber will but they dont come cheap coupled with amps of similar price so your talking about 80000 ringgit

 

[Anonymous]

80,000 ringgit for the whole system of cdp, amp and speakers? That's not too out of reach....

 

[Anonymous]

amp and speakers

 

[matthewpiano]

the record spot:That could be a really good mix with the upfront CA 650A you've got; plenty of punch from it, but kept in balance by the more analogue nature the Q's posess. £150? Very good price too.

Another thanks owed to you Record Spot, and also to manicm and ear. Your comments made me try my 340C CD player again in place of the NAD now that I have the speakers, and it sounds different again. With this amp and speaker combination the CA CD player sounds much better tonally than the NAD and takes me 70% there. Consequently rather than changing an excellent amplifier that has plenty of power I'm now going to buy the matching 650C CD player, which should give me something which combines the 340C's sense of vigour and tonal accuracy with more finesse and further clarity of soundstaging.