Coloured or neutral?

[matthewpiano]

Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer?

Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections?

Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

 

[chebby]

Sorry to go off-topic but didn't you have Quad 11l speakers yesterday?

And has that Technics SL1210 just appeared today? (Or is that my imagination playing tricks?)

 

[Anonymous]

Matthew ... I think it goes a bit further than that ... which confuses the whole issue

I think it also depends on the recording quality of the cd that you are listening to ....i.e when listening to a system, it may sound 'bright', but play another cd recording of the the very same cd and it sounds warmer/better? ...

I have found that some of my older cd's from the 90's sound a little softer/less volume but are well recorded compared to re-releases of the same cd which have much more volume but sound different?

 

[Anonymous]

actually i thought detailed or revealing covered the warts and imperfections

ive always thought coloured usually means incorrect balance somewhere in the frequencies as in too warm too pronounced bass overemphasis of midrange etc whereas neutral means not emphasising anything within the frequency response

so id definitely not want a coloured response since its a flaw

however my definitions could be totally wrong

 

[matthewpiano]

chebby:
Sorry to go off-topic but didn't you have Quad 11l speakers yesterday?

And has that Technics SL1210 just appeared today? (Or is that my imagination playing tricks?)

The SL1210 has been here for some time, but with my recent swapping and changing it has been left off for a while. I actually need to get an external phono stage for it as my Graham Slee Gramp Amp 1 has died. I'm going to get a NAD P-P2 next month so that I can start spinning my vinyl again. I've only got a Goldring Elan on it at present but its quite a fun little cartridge.

I've had the Quads ages but I've been in the market for something different and just waiting for the right speakers at the right price. The Qs were a bargain and they are superb, with the added bonus that they look lovely too. I think they are my most considered buy of all over the whole of the last couple of years and, to be honest, they are already turning out to be the best.

Only thing is, they sound better with a NAD amp. In fact, everything sounds better through a NAD amp. My initial enthusiasm for the 650A has waned quite dramatically because I'm finding it a bit headache inducing with pretty much any speaker I put on the end of it. Its superb in some ways but the top end is actually quite poor tonally and, on reflection, I think that is where your Naim would really take the laurels. Overall I'm not actually convinced that the 650A is as good as the old 640A V2. What I am convinced about is that after having 540A, 640A V2, 2x 740A and now a 650A I need to stop myself from buying Cambridge Audio again.

I know I've got the right speakers now. I just need to organise the switch back to NAD amplification. I remember when I'd sold my C325BEE. Just before I packaged it up I listened to a few CDs on it and thought it sounded wonderful. Buy that time it was too late to go back on the sale. :-(

This is what prompted this thread. I've accepted that what I like is quite a coloured sound that flatters recordings - that I'm actually not a great candidate for the high end sound, and that I'd be better if I stopped trying to chase it.

 

[drummerman]

matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer?

Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections?

Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

If neutral means to make different cd's sound different, then that's me. What I don't like is some frequency/sound 'abnormality' that imposes itself on each and every track I listen to, whichever component may be the culprit.

I can and do enjoy my music, whatever my system costs. Hope you will/do too.

 

[matthewpiano]

drummerman:
matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer?

Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections?

Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

If neutral means to make different cd's sound different, then that's me. What I don't like is some frequency/sound 'abnormality' that imposes itself on each and every track I listen to, whichever component may be the culprit.

I can and do enjoy my music, whatever my system costs. Hope you will/do too.

Maybe in that sense NAD is actually more neutral than CA because the CA does impose a metallic/thin/bright treble on everything.

Maybe I have got my understanding of 'neutral' and 'coloured' mixed up!!

 

[Anonymous]

Matthew, I still think that you would be better off with an amp with tone controls ... I know that you are not looking at buying older gear, but look at something more modern

reason I say this, is because when you had the A-400, your initial response was that it was very good ... then you later stated that it was good with some types of music, but did not perform well with other types

just out of interest, I read somewhere that one of the hardest types of music to reproduce correctly on a hifi system is music that has a dominance of piano ... not sure if this is true, but perhaps you can clarify?

 

[Anonymous]

matthew your not wrong and what you like is a neutral sound which you defined very well a few threads ago

unfortunately detailed fast pacy invigorating etc is what sells these days and thats hardly neutral but it is a trait of ca

there are few budget components which are neutral and nad is closer than some though perhaps a touch warm

q acoustics of which im a fan are another example of neutral gear wh ch doesnt fit the current norm so in fact you havent bought coloured at all just truthful

 

[matthewpiano]

dim_span:
Matthew, I still think that you would be better off with an amp with tone controls ... I know that you are not looking at buying older gear, but look at something more modern

reason I say this, is because when you had the A-400, your initial response was that it was very good ... then you later stated that it was good with some types of music, but did not perform well with other types

just out of interest, I read somewhere that one of the hardest types of music to reproduce correctly on a hifi system is music that has a dominance of piano ... not sure if this is true, but perhaps you can clarify?

Yes, there is some truth in that because of the massive frequency range of a piano and all the resonances and overtones it produces alongside the fundamental notes. However, I can't use that as an excuse because its orchestral stuff I'm having problems with mostly.

The 650A has tone controls but they are useless.

The beauty of the Q speakers is that they are 90dB sensitivity so I don't need a massively powerful amplifier to drive them. NAD is a natural partner for them - its just whether I go to the C315BEE (which Ken Kessler raves about) or the C326BEE. I might even save some money and pick up a used C325BEE.

 

[matthewpiano]

one off:
matthew your not wrong and what you like is a neutral sound which you defined very well a few threads ago

unfortunately detailed fast pacy invigorating etc is what sells these days and thats hardly neutral but it is a trait of ca

there are few budget components which are neutral and nad is closer than some though perhaps a touch warm

q acoustics of which im a fan are another example of neutral gear wh ch doesnt fit the current norm so in fact you havent bought coloured at all just truthful

Thanks one off. Makes me feel like I've still got a smigdeon of sanity left!!

 

[Anonymous]

good luck Matthew ... wish you well and hope that you acquire a good system that you are well pleased with! ... keep us posted

 

[matthewpiano]

dim_span:good luck Matthew ... wish you well and hope that you acquire a good system that you are well pleased with! ... keep us posted

Cheers mate, and will do.

 

[chebby]

matthewpiano:[ My initial enthusiasm for the 650A has waned quite dramatically because I'm finding it a bit headache inducing with pretty much any speaker I put on the end of it. Its superb in some ways but the top end is actually quite poor tonally and, on reflection, I think that is where your Naim would really take the laurels. Overall I'm not actually convinced that the 650A is as good as the old 640A V2. What I am convinced about is that after having 540A, 640A V2, 2x 740A and now a 650A I need to stop myself from buying Cambridge Audio again.

I know I've got the right speakers now. I just need to organise the switch back to NAD amplification.

By the time you move back to a NAD amp that will be 5 amp changes (or six?) plus the Arcam Alpha (or Delta) I seem to remember you having, and an A400. (Or was that someone else?) Ok I am losing count. Seven or eight maybe.

I have had seven or eight amps since 1979 (I think) including this Naim.

Anyway, I hope the move back to NAD works well for you. I have very fond memories of my first amp (the original NAD 3020 in 1979) and remember being impressed by a 325BEE I heard a couple of years ago.

I cannot sensibly answer whether I like a coloured or neutral sound because too many factors conspire - in any system - to add or subtract from the original recording, including the room. So I guess I end up with systems I just like the sound of.

The most 'successful' system I owned lasted me 11 years from 1996 - 2007 (Rega Planar 3, Goldring 1042, Rega Luna amp, KEF Q35.2 speakers, Yamaha cassette deck and Sony tuner.)

I think in the last week I have made the final changes to a system that is essentially going to be 'it' for the next few years. I may swap all the Naim boxes for a Naimuniti but - essentially - that will be the same 'sound' and a 'side-grade' from my current system (for the sake of convenience and reducing box-count) rather than an upgrade or chasing a different sound.

 

[idc]

matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer? Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections?.......

one off:

actually i thought detailed or revealing covered the warts and imperfections

ive always thought coloured usually means incorrect balance somewhere in the frequencies as in too warm too pronounced bass overemphasis of midrange etc whereas neutral means not emphasising anything within the frequency response........

To go back to the start, I am with one off here, the initial quote is about detail and clarity rather than coloured or neutral.

My preference has always been for clarity and detail, even if it does exposed warts and all. But, I draw the line at being able to hear background hiss from master tapes as if I was listening to a cassette player without Dolby on. I heard a high end Moon and electrostatic speaker system that suffered terribly from hiss. The demonstrater spoke as if it was good thing. I disagree.

As for coloured or neutral, I used to be coloured with emphasis on the bass. That was until I spoke to Anthony Michaelson from Musical Fidelity and his take on neutrality. I now want to hear the music with no emphasis on the extremes and where all the instruments work together rather than compete against each other. It makes for a less dynamic sound initially, but it is more musical in the long term.

 

[matthewpiano]

Chebby

I'm losing count myself!!

You are in a good position - I think the best you possibly could be. I sense that you are now able to simply enjoy the music, and that is what it is all about. I gather that the n-Sats have been a success then?

I'm going all NAD. Probably to a C315BEE amp because I don't need a huge amount of power, and then a new NAD CD player to replace my ageing C521BEE. With the 1030i speakers and a NAD phono stage for the Technics I'll have a system that I hope I will settle with for at least 5 years.

 

[JamesPianoman]

Its a good question. From my (very) limited listening, I think I enjoy 'coloured' more. I'd think I'd always go for a warm, involving presentation rather than dry and super detailed.

I'm not even sure if I'm using the right terminology, but hope you get my drift.

 

[idc]

JamesPianoman:

Its a good question. From my (very) limited listening, I think I enjoy 'coloured' more. I'd think I'd always go for a warm, involving presentation rather than dry and super detailed.

I'm not even sure if I'm using the right terminology, but hope you get my drift.

I would say that you prefer warm to detailed. Coloured means you have a preference for say bass heavy or bass light.

 

[Anonymous]

I prefer clarity, with detail and must have good bass ...

the few auditions that I have had with new systems is that I found bass was very low, but perhaps my system has too much bass and I have got used to it? -

I prefer warm sounding systems (that is the way I would describe it) ... which can be found with many of the older systems

my best speakers that I have owned have always been transmission line design which always have had excellent bass (IMF and B&W)

 

[matthewpiano]

idc:JamesPianoman:

Its a good question. From my (very) limited listening, I think I enjoy 'coloured' more. I'd think I'd always go for a warm, involving presentation rather than dry and super detailed.

I'm not even sure if I'm using the right terminology, but hope you get my drift.

I would say that you prefer warm to detailed. Coloured means you have a preference for say bass heavy or bass light.

I think I lean towards the warm more than the detailed as well and, yes, I think those are probably better words.

 

[JamesPianoman]

dim_span:

my best speakers that I have owned have always been transmission line design

What's that then? Are my CM1s (when they arrive) going to be that? What do other speakers use?

Ta,

 

[idc]

dim_span:

I prefer clarity, with detail and must have good bass ...

I am with you there dim_span. Though, my idea of good bass has changed. It was heavy, dynamic and falling out the speaker. Now, it has to have clarity and detail as well. Part of that is becuase on headphones a big bass overwhelms the rest of the music too easily. Good speakers can separate the bass and have it as if there is a sub woofer elsewhere in the room. My experience with headphones is, that is not the case

With my present set up I have detail and clarity so that at times I can hear the bass guitar being plucked and the note change slightly in tone. I can also hear the kick drum very clearly so that at times I can hear it being struck with a different amount of force between different 'kicks'. It makes it feel like I am in the studio hearing the band playing.

 

[chebby]

matthewpiano:I gather that the n-Sats have been a success then?

Very much so. Thanks.

Two days after I installed the N-Sats I had to re-install the Rega R3's - for the guy who bought them to listen to - and was shocked at how muffled the R3's sounded! (Up until then I had deliberately not done any a/b comparison.)

matthewpiano:I'm going all NAD. Probably to a C315BEE amp because I don't need a huge amount of power...

I would still say go for a 325BEE (or 326BEE).

 

[manicm]

matthewpiano:Two words we hear quite frequently in talk about hi-fi, but which do you prefer? Do you want the hi-fi to flatter the recording or show all the warts and imperfections? Could you happily have fun with an entry level NAD system, or do you prefer something with more hi-end pretensions?

Matthew old chap, what in Heaven's name are you doing with a Nad C521BEE??? I had the C521, and was one of the worst things I ever bought.

Don't be a tightwad and trade up please

I also agree with Chebby, a bit of power is not a bad thing even in small rooms as generally low-volume listening will be much better. But then you're off onto a splendid start with the CA650A.

But for the love of God, lose the C521BEE.

 

[matthewpiano]

chebby:
matthewpiano:I gather that the n-Sats have been a success then?

Very much so. Thanks.

Two days after I installed the N-Sats I had to re-install the Rega R3's - for the guy who bought them to listen to - and was shocked at how muffled the R3's sounded! (Up until then I had deliberately not done any a/b comparison.)

matthewpiano:I'm going all NAD. Probably to a C315BEE amp because I don't need a huge amount of power...

I would still say go for a 325BEE (or 326BEE).

Do you think the difference will be that noticeable then?

Glad the N-Sats are proving to be a good buy. I know how much you loved the Regas so changing speakers was always going to be a challenge. Good that the little comparison confirmed your thoughts too!