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Chord Dacs? Added Distortion or accurate???

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drummerman

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Jan 18, 2008
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Andrewjvt said:
davedotco said:
Good on you...*good*

One small tip that may be usefull, level matching can be very awkward so I suggest measuring the level at the easily accessable speaker terminals. Some sort of steady test tone and a digital multimeter is all that is required.

Good luck
My trusty old fluke i brought in 1996 is still going strong
Cant beat a Fluke. Thats the meter :)
 

Gray

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2015
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6,070
An old 73 and 77 are my models. They must've sold a few.

Will be interested if you can report on your DAC comparisons Andrewjvt. I agree that level matching is essential for the tests.

Of course there's no substitute for listening yourself but I'd like to know if you find the Chord difference(s) to be more than just the normal subtle ones I've found with DACs.
 

Andrewjvt

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Jun 18, 2014
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Gray said:
An old 73 and 77 are my models. They must've sold a few.

Will be interested if you can report on your DAC comparisons Andrewjvt. I agree that level matching is essential for the tests.

Of course there's no substitute for listening yourself but I'd like to know if you find the Chord difference(s) to be more than just the normal subtle ones I've found with DACs.
I cant see it working without strict level matching.

Im going to do this asap but not in the position for a while but i need this for myself more than anything as i really find it hard to hear a difference in dacs etc
 

Andrewjvt

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Jun 18, 2014
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Gazzip said:
Native_bon said:
Andrewjvt said:
From chord about Fpga and what i picked up from it is:

If this technology is being used on say the 2qute and dave. Apart from balanced connections what is inside to make the dave so expensive in comparison?

Next thing was all the marketing words: Unique, accuracy, Pure, finest, Custom, Excellent, ultra fine, original, multi award winning, micro detail and more complex (ive actually copied my friends sms in responce to the video i sent)

Are they not just sending a tizz to make us think they are more get up and go? Like amplifiers hitting peak power/volume just above 9 oclock to trick the listener into believing the amp is more powerful than it really is.
It may well be the case. One thing I have noticed, is that the output of chord dacs are quite high. This is the case with 2qute compared to the Oppo & M dac.
This entire thread (and many others on this forum) reflects a wider, world issue that we currently face. There seems to be distrust everywhere. Nobody knows what to believe anymore. In hifi there are so many BS merchants and snakeoil tradesmen trying to sell baseless stuff that everything gets tarred with the same brush. This is going to have to be balanced quickly because at the moment the depressing truth is that we as a hobby (and wider as a society) are heading somewhere very, very dark...

 
I do see your point. I know it should not make a difference but if you have lots of spare cash to burn and spend a lot on things that are not needed no real harm done.

But when you need to save for 6 months just to buy one inportant item, its really annoying when someone is bs-ing a person into buying stuff that wont change a thing. Hifi magazines are a big blame. Always every year new products come out so much better than last year etc.
How many people on this verry forum were ditching the q acoustics 2020i for 3020?

I also get that this is a hobby and taking all the excitement out of it by doubting and not believing.
I personally dont believe in this day and age that Dacs make that much difference as some are saying.

Does this make sense to you.
The world is full of chancers in any field.
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
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Andrewjvt said:
Gray said:
An old 73 and 77 are my models. They must've sold a few.

Will be interested if you can report on your DAC comparisons Andrewjvt. I agree that level matching is essential for the tests.

Of course there's no substitute for listening yourself but I'd like to know if you find the Chord difference(s) to be more than just the normal subtle ones I've found with DACs.
I cant see it working without strict level matching.

Im going to do this asap but not in the position for a while but i need this for myself more than anything as i really find it hard to hear a difference in dacs etc
You need to remember that the Mojo is a headphone DAC and that the Hugo TT and Dave DACs are £3200 and £8500 respectively. No disrespect but you simply cannot do this listening test on your system because you probably won't get to hear how good/different (or indeed conclusively similar) the DACs are. You need to go to a Chord dealer and do this on their reference system before reporting the results back to the forum, otherwise they are a tad meaningless.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
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Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gray said:
An old 73 and 77 are my models. They must've sold a few.

Will be interested if you can report on your DAC comparisons Andrewjvt. I agree that level matching is essential for the tests.

Of course there's no substitute for listening yourself but I'd like to know if you find the Chord difference(s) to be more than just the normal subtle ones I've found with DACs.
I cant see it working without strict level matching.

Im going to do this asap but not in the position for a while but i need this for myself more than anything as i really find it hard to hear a difference in dacs etc
You need to remember that the Mojo is a headphone DAC and that the Hugo TT and Dave DACs are £3200 and £8500 respectively. No disrespect but you simply cannot do this listening test on your system because you probably won't get to hear how good/different (or indeed conclusively similar) the DACs are. You need to go to a Chord dealer and do this on their reference system before reporting the results back to the forum, otherwise they are a tad meaningless.
Why?
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
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Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gray said:
An old 73 and 77 are my models. They must've sold a few.

Will be interested if you can report on your DAC comparisons Andrewjvt. I agree that level matching is essential for the tests.

Of course there's no substitute for listening yourself but I'd like to know if you find the Chord difference(s) to be more than just the normal subtle ones I've found with DACs.
I cant see it working without strict level matching.

Im going to do this asap but not in the position for a while but i need this for myself more than anything as i really find it hard to hear a difference in dacs etc
You need to remember that the Mojo is a headphone DAC and that the Hugo TT and Dave DACs are £3200 and £8500 respectively. No disrespect but you simply cannot do this listening test on your system because you probably won't get to hear how good/different (or indeed conclusively similar) the DACs are. You need to go to a Chord dealer and do this on their reference system before reporting the results back to the forum, otherwise they are a tad meaningless.
Why?
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing/full range enough to assess their impact.
 

DocG

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May 1, 2012
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Gazzip said:
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing enough to assess their impact.
Then again, if a Hegel - ATC combo can't show the differences, it says enough for the majority on this forum...
 

Gazzip

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Jan 15, 2011
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DocG said:
Gazzip said:
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing enough to assess their impact.
Then again, if a Hegel - ATC combo can't show the differences, it says enough for the majority on this forum...
I completely agree having thought about it further.
 

Andrewjvt

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Jun 18, 2014
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Gazzip said:
DocG said:
Gazzip said:
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing enough to assess their impact.
Then again, if a Hegel - ATC combo can't show the differences, it says enough for the majority on this forum...
I completely agree having thought about it further.
A couple of points to consider: it was never my intention to compare the whole chord range between themselves.

I wanted to compare 2qute v other make dac. Or something similar possibly hugo.

Myself and a friend of mine will be conducting the test together with ear phones and speakers/active and passive

pass labs hpa1with Sennheiser hd800s.
Active avi dm10s
Hegel h360 and atc

Gazzip. The h360 has very close performance to their own reference power amp and is also very very revealing.

I bet if i brought my amp to yours you would be amazed.
What makes you think the hegel is not revealing enough or what is under the hood of your amp.that is lacking in mine? Look at nord amps £1500 but other manufactuerers are using same amp and charging a fortune.

I know i only have 11s but Atc in my opinion are the ultimate reference for something like this. And i cant say now but i may have something a tiny bit larger than 11s by then.

Edit: sorry at work but the avi dm10 imo have the least distortion of any speaker ive heard and have earphone like clarity. They will put most 10 frand systems to shame on the revealing clarity front.

So i think we got enough tools to do the job. Dont you agree?
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
740
301
5,270
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
DocG said:
Gazzip said:
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing enough to assess their impact.
Then again, if a Hegel - ATC combo can't show the differences, it says enough for the majority on this forum...
I completely agree having thought about it further.
A couple of points to consider: it was never my intention to compare the whole chord range between themselves.

I wanted to compare 2qute v other make dac. Or something similar possibly hugo.

Myself and a friend of mine will be conducting the test together with ear phones and speakers/active and passive

pass labs hpa1with Sennheiser hd800s.
Active avi dm10s
Hegel h360 and atc

Gazzip. The h360 has very close performance to their own reference power amp and is also very very revealing.

I bet if i brought my amp to yours you would be amazed.
What makes you think the hegel is not revealing enough or what is under the hood of your amp.that is lacking in mine? Look at nord amps £1500 but other manufactuerers are using same amp and charging a fortune.

I know i only have 11s but Atc in my opinion are the ultimate reference for something like this. And i cant say now but i may have something a tiny bit larger than 11s by then.

Edit: sorry at work but the avi dm10 imo have the least distortion of any speaker ive heard and have earphone like clarity. They will put most 10 frand systems to shame on the revealing clarity front.

So i think we got enough tools to do the job. Dont you agree?
Looking forward to read your findings. Sound like a lot of fun.
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
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I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
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insider9 said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
DocG said:
Gazzip said:
because the differences between the DACs will be small and your system is not revealing enough to assess their impact.
Then again, if a Hegel - ATC combo can't show the differences, it says enough for the majority on this forum...
I completely agree having thought about it further.
A couple of points to consider: it was never my intention to compare the whole chord range between themselves.

I wanted to compare 2qute v other make dac. Or something similar possibly hugo.

Myself and a friend of mine will be conducting the test together with ear phones and speakers/active and passive

pass labs hpa1with Sennheiser hd800s.
Active avi dm10s
Hegel h360 and atc

Gazzip. The h360 has very close performance to their own reference power amp and is also very very revealing.

I bet if i brought my amp to yours you would be amazed.
What makes you think the hegel is not revealing enough or what is under the hood of your amp.that is lacking in mine? Look at nord amps £1500 but other manufactuerers are using same amp and charging a fortune.

I know i only have 11s but Atc in my opinion are the ultimate reference for something like this. And i cant say now but i may have something a tiny bit larger than 11s by then.

Edit: sorry at work but the avi dm10 imo have the least distortion of any speaker ive heard and have earphone like clarity. They will put most 10 frand systems to shame on the revealing clarity front.

So i think we got enough tools to do the job. Dont you agree?
Looking forward to read your findings. Sound like a lot of fun.
It will be but dont hold your breath on this one as ive a lot of other hifi business to do first. But i will do it after that, i promise
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
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Gazzip said:
I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
I agree on certain point regards the full range definately no argument.

As for revealing nature of them, i think the 11s are very revealing. Sometimea i hear noises in sings and i rewind and its something that the recording artist has either missed or thought no one would notice.

One song i even heard someone drop something. Another, the breathing through his nose was distracting and all sorts of noises so in that respect i think they could work. But anyway i was thinking of using different atcs anyway.
But yes 11s are not the perfect full range speaker.

Im only trying to find out if chord use tricks or are the dacs they produce more exciting?
 

Gazzip

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Jan 15, 2011
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Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
I agree on certain point regards the full range definately no argument.

As for revealing nature of them, i think the 11s are very revealing. Sometimea i hear noises in sings and i rewind and its something that the recording artist has either missed or thought no one would notice.

One song i even heard someone drop something. Another, the breathing through his nose was distracting and all sorts of noises so in that respect i think they could work. But anyway i was thinking of using different atcs anyway. But yes 11s are not the perfect full range speaker.
Please don't get me wrong. I think the SCM11 are a truly excellent loudspeaker with a fine pedigree to boot. It's just that a great deal of dynamic clout starts at the bottom end so you will need some of that.

What are you getting from up the ATC range? Spill the beans you tease.
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
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Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
I agree on certain point regards the full range definately no argument.

As for revealing nature of them, i think the 11s are very revealing. Sometimea i hear noises in sings and i rewind and its something that the recording artist has either missed or thought no one would notice.

One song i even heard someone drop something. Another, the breathing through his nose was distracting and all sorts of noises so in that respect i think they could work. But anyway i was thinking of using different atcs anyway. But yes 11s are not the perfect full range speaker.
Please don't get me wrong. I think the SCM11 are a truly excellent loudspeaker with a fine pedigree to boot. It's just that a great deal of dynamic clout starts at the bottom end so you will need some of that. 

What are you getting from up the ATC range? Spill the beans you tease.
Not yet lol
undecided
Next comming weeks should tell.
Max 2 months.
Ps im saving up
Heres a clue or maybe not but the scm11s were only meant to be rear speakers in a 5.1.
 

Gazzip

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Jan 15, 2011
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Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
I agree on certain point regards the full range definately no argument.

As for revealing nature of them, i think the 11s are very revealing. Sometimea i hear noises in sings and i rewind and its something that the recording artist has either missed or thought no one would notice.

One song i even heard someone drop something. Another, the breathing through his nose was distracting and all sorts of noises so in that respect i think they could work. But anyway i was thinking of using different atcs anyway. But yes 11s are not the perfect full range speaker.
Please don't get me wrong. I think the SCM11 are a truly excellent loudspeaker with a fine pedigree to boot. It's just that a great deal of dynamic clout starts at the bottom end so you will need some of that.

What are you getting from up the ATC range? Spill the beans you tease.
Not yet lol undecided Next comming weeks should tell. Max 2 months. Ps im saving up Heres a clue or maybe not but the scm11s were only meant to be rear speakers in a 5.1.
Hmmmmm... Well it has to be the 19's or the 40's. The question is "a" or not "a". Given some of your recent posts I think you will be going active for your fronts. Although you can get secondhand 50a's for the price of new 40a's. I'm going to plum for SCM50 actives. Am I right?
 

Andrewjvt

New member
Jun 18, 2014
99
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Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
Andrewjvt said:
Gazzip said:
I think that amplifiers do nothing more than drive loudspeakers so yes the Hegel is probably up to the job. The ATC's SCM11's are in my opinion going to hinder your experiment because they do not possess a full range bottom end. They are a weak link that are unable to produce lower order wind, strings and even drums, so are not a worthy reference product for testing a source.
I agree on certain point regards the full range definately no argument.

As for revealing nature of them, i think the 11s are very revealing. Sometimea i hear noises in sings and i rewind and its something that the recording artist has either missed or thought no one would notice.

One song i even heard someone drop something. Another, the breathing through his nose was distracting and all sorts of noises so in that respect i think they could work. But anyway i was thinking of using different atcs anyway. But yes 11s are not the perfect full range speaker.
Please don't get me wrong. I think the SCM11 are a truly excellent loudspeaker with a fine pedigree to boot. It's just that a great deal of dynamic clout starts at the bottom end so you will need some of that. 

What are you getting from up the ATC range? Spill the beans you tease.
Not yet lol undecided Next comming weeks should tell. Max 2 months. Ps im saving up Heres a clue or maybe not but the scm11s were only meant to be rear speakers in a 5.1.
Hmmmmm... Well it has to be the 19's or the 40's. The question is "a" or not "a". Given some of your recent posts I think you will be going active for your fronts. Although you can get secondhand 50a's for the price of new 40a's. I'm going to plum for SCM50 actives. Am I right?
Id love a pair of active scm50s and
You may have been close a few weeks/months ago but now thats all ill say for now.

Once ive decided ill do a write up with the whole thing from start to finish over last 2 years. Its all carefully planned. Im not changing amps/speakers all the time random like a monkey jumping from tree to tree lol. But i must first decide.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Gazzip said:
You need to remember that the Mojo is a headphone DAC and that the Hugo TT and Dave DACs are £3200 and £8500 respectively. No disrespect but you simply cannot do this listening test on your system because you probably won't get to hear how good/different (or indeed conclusively similar) the DACs are. You need to go to a Chord dealer and do this on their reference system before reporting the results back to the forum, otherwise they are a tad meaningless.
My personal take on this is that IF the difference between a £3200 Chord DAC and a £50 DAC is so small that it can only be heard on a "reference" system and not on ATC 11's / AVI DM10's then it is not worth spending the money on.

The difference between my best and least good vinyl sources, would be easily audible on ATC 11's.

And the reference system at my nearest Chord dealer would be based on Shahinian Hawks or Linn Akubariks or PMC Fact 12's. I wouldn't rate any of them as being particularly better / more revealing than DM10's with a sub.
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
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FWIW i heard the dave dac it had a more detailed presentation of content i knew than I had ever heard before

I didnt know gazzip had a fpga dac and after hearing his system coming back to mine the presentation seems blurred and a bit muffled by comparison. More in mids and treble not so much bass

This is comparing apples to oranges to a degree but after watching the chord dac video linked what they describe seems to coincide with what I have heard.
 

Gazzip

New member
Jan 15, 2011
88
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lindsayt said:
Gazzip said:
You need to remember that the Mojo is a headphone DAC and that the Hugo TT and Dave DACs are £3200 and £8500 respectively. No disrespect but you simply cannot do this listening test on your system because you probably won't get to hear how good/different (or indeed conclusively similar) the DACs are. You need to go to a Chord dealer and do this on their reference system before reporting the results back to the forum, otherwise they are a tad meaningless.
My personal take on this is that IF the difference between a £3200 Chord DAC and a £50 DAC is so small that it can only be heard on a "reference" system and not on ATC 11's / AVI DM10's then it is not worth spending the money on.

The difference between my best and least good vinyl sources, would be easily audible on ATC 11's.

And the reference system at my nearest Chord dealer would be based on Shahinian Hawks or Linn Akubariks or PMC Fact 12's. I wouldn't rate any of them as being particularly better / more revealing than DM10's with a sub.
On point your point one I personally tend to agree, although "worth" in a world of diminishing returns is subjective and really comes down to wealth vs desire to get that extra 3%.

On your point two I have not heard the SCM11 with a sub and have not heard the AVI 10's at all so cannot comment. What I will say is that setting up and integrating subs to work seemlessly with monitors is difficult, and I don't think you ever get the same dynamic attack across the whole range with a sub and monitor combo as you would with an excellent pair of integrated 2-way or 3-way, full range speakers.
 

lindsayt

New member
Apr 8, 2011
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Gazzip, I agree about integrating subs.

Shahinian Hawks, Akubariks, Fact 12's. None of them are excellent speakers. I'd rate them as average / run of the mill / not bad sounding speakers. That's pretty much the same rating that I'd give AVI actives with a sub. Without a sub they'd drop to below average as I don't like bass drums and guitars to be filtered out / moved to the back of the mix.
 

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