currently got my centre speaker which the B&W htm62 (i think) set too small on my amp. Vocals seem to lack a bit of volume. Was wondering if this should be set to large?
Centre speakers....How big is Big?c
- Thread starter Soopafly49
- Start date
I have a Yamaha amp & found some info in it a couple of days ago regarding large & small speaker settings.I was looking for answers.
It says that the speaker settings should be.
Small,below 6 1/2" .
Large, above 6 1/2"
Not saying this is a must do,just what the manual says.I've constantly played around with my settings,because sometimes the dialogue is not good,almost always on some film soundtracks including bluray.Normal TV broadcast sound is fine so i'm putting it down to poor film soundtrack,but it still has me playing around with the speakers.
It says that the speaker settings should be.
Small,below 6 1/2" .
Large, above 6 1/2"
Not saying this is a must do,just what the manual says.I've constantly played around with my settings,because sometimes the dialogue is not good,almost always on some film soundtracks including bluray.Normal TV broadcast sound is fine so i'm putting it down to poor film soundtrack,but it still has me playing around with the speakers.
It is my understanding that "big" has less to do with physical size, than the frequency response of the speaker.
Here is what Arcam says:
"As a rule of thumb, if a speaker cannot reproduce a flat frequency response down to about 40 Hz (and very few can), it is better to consider them as Small for set up purposes of home cinema".
The above advice assumes that there is a sub to handle the low frequencies.
Here is what Arcam says:
"As a rule of thumb, if a speaker cannot reproduce a flat frequency response down to about 40 Hz (and very few can), it is better to consider them as Small for set up purposes of home cinema".
The above advice assumes that there is a sub to handle the low frequencies.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
My rule is that if it's smaller than the front pair, regardless of what the manufacturer claims it to do, it should be set to small (assuming of course, the front pair are being set to large).
I tend to set all speakers to small anyway, regardless of their size - I'd set the Blades to small as well - but obviously I'd set e fairly low crossover point.
In your case Soopafly, we don't know which AV receiver you have, or how you currently have it set up. What crossover point are you using for it? Have you run an auto setup? If so, have you changed any settings since doing that? I usually tend to find adding 1dB to the centre brings it out nicely. Many auto setups tend to set it a tad low, in my opinion. This may be great for L/C/R blending, but some dialogue can be lost in action scenes.
I tend to set all speakers to small anyway, regardless of their size - I'd set the Blades to small as well - but obviously I'd set e fairly low crossover point.
In your case Soopafly, we don't know which AV receiver you have, or how you currently have it set up. What crossover point are you using for it? Have you run an auto setup? If so, have you changed any settings since doing that? I usually tend to find adding 1dB to the centre brings it out nicely. Many auto setups tend to set it a tad low, in my opinion. This may be great for L/C/R blending, but some dialogue can be lost in action scenes.
atanakata
Well-known member
I am experiencing the same with my center ( Mezzo 5 ) and receiver (AVR-1909) . While it blends quite well with the fronts , in some films the dialogue is just too quite to my liking. The Auto Set-up of Denon has set the Fronts`s Level to + 2,5 db , the rears to - 2 db , while the Center is set to Small + 1 db. Being not British-born , I need to hear the speech quite clearly, so I usually have to manually set the Center to + 7 or 8 dB to be able to hear nicely the dialogues. I am quite annoyed of having to do it all the time , and don`t know if it is right to keep the Center to such high level.
The last few days I`ve been thinking about Bi-Wiring ... Do you think this could make some improvement in the speech`s volume and clarity ... If so, this could be the case for " Soopafly49 " too....
Thanks for the help...
The last few days I`ve been thinking about Bi-Wiring ... Do you think this could make some improvement in the speech`s volume and clarity ... If so, this could be the case for " Soopafly49 " too....
Thanks for the help...
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Don't forget that the overall 5.1 balance will vary from movie to movie. Over time, you'll get a feel for the best level for your centre speaker, although the occasional adjustment might still be needed.
Hi David,
I have a Yamaha RX-V3067, if i do the auto set up and then change my Centre from big to small will it nock the settings out of sync , Also , should i set all my speakers to small ?
Thanks for your help.
I have a Yamaha RX-V3067, if i do the auto set up and then change my Centre from big to small will it nock the settings out of sync , Also , should i set all my speakers to small ?
Thanks for your help.
atanakata
Well-known member
Yes I agree , and I got use to it actually ( to do adjustments of the Center`s level ) , but isn`t it a bit harmful for the speaker itself that it`s level is set to + 8 db at times ? How about bi-wiring the center ? Would that give it that extra power ? It will be interesting to hear your thoughts on that . Thanks a lot
Hi David
I have a Yamaha DSP-AX863SE,front L/R areLinn Komponent110,centre is the 106,basically the same speakers,output is the same.I don't have a sub/w so the bass goes through the front 2.If i set the the amp, bass to front 2 i can't change the fronts to small,i can if i set the bass to output to the fronts & a s/w,which i suspect is not the thing to do.
I can change the centre to small but not the fronts if set to output the bass.Cross over is at 90 when auto set up is run.I invariably end up changing the centre volume because of film soundtracks not breing clear.
The bluray is connected to the amp by hdmi as is the vision box & a hard disk recorder,then connected to the tv by hdmi from the amp.Any suggestions on improving sound from the centre appreciated,basic tv sound from any source is generally not a problem,sound from the tv tuners is from optical, tv to amp.
I have a Yamaha DSP-AX863SE,front L/R areLinn Komponent110,centre is the 106,basically the same speakers,output is the same.I don't have a sub/w so the bass goes through the front 2.If i set the the amp, bass to front 2 i can't change the fronts to small,i can if i set the bass to output to the fronts & a s/w,which i suspect is not the thing to do.
I can change the centre to small but not the fronts if set to output the bass.Cross over is at 90 when auto set up is run.I invariably end up changing the centre volume because of film soundtracks not breing clear.
The bluray is connected to the amp by hdmi as is the vision box & a hard disk recorder,then connected to the tv by hdmi from the amp.Any suggestions on improving sound from the centre appreciated,basic tv sound from any source is generally not a problem,sound from the tv tuners is from optical, tv to amp.
currently using the denon 2310. Fronts are 684 and set to large while rears are 686's and set as small not sure about the crossover pioint but havent change that since i bought the system will check when i get home.FrankHarveyHiFi said:
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
chris hollands said:
Sorry Chris, I didn't realise you'd replied. That's the main drawback of this site - you can't keep track of individual threads.
If you change a centre to small when the receiver has set it to large, it'll send the redundant frequencies to the front left and right speaker, if they're set to large or if they're set to a lower crossover point. Depending on settings,these speakers may already be producing these frequencies, and will already be EQ'd for them. It's not really something I've worried about in the past, and have never really run into issues with.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Atanas Rangelov said:
Pit doesn't really matter what the settings are for each speaker as long as its well balanced. Yes, if all your speakers are at -8 and your centre is at +9, then there could be problems. As long as it sounds well balanced, and there's no glaring anomalies when checked with a dB meter, everything should be fine. If you don't have a dB meter, if you go into the test tone and pass round all the speakers one after the other, of the centre sounds a lot louder than the other speakers, it might be worth starting from scratch. If it sounds similar, or only marginally louder, no problems.
I wouldn't worry too much about bi-wiring as bi-wiring gives subtle differences at best in most circumstances, and it won't affect power output. Only a more powerful amplifier will give your centre more power.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Cliff1 said:
Hi Cliff
As your receiver is set to not include a sub, you won't be able to set the front left and right to small - there has to be some speakers to reproduce the lower bass. You will be able to set the centre to small as the receiver will pass those lower frequencies onto the front left and right, hence they have to be set to large. Setting the bass output to both sub and fronts isn't wise as the bass wold then be shared between them, and you're likely to miss out on some lower frequencies.
If your auto set up hasn't set the centre to your liking, feel free to add to it. As I've said many times, I add about 1dB to the centre speaker as a matter of course. You can add as much as you like to suit your preference, but adding too much will overpower surround effects and the subwoofer. The overall balance is personal, but you don't want to start too far from the auto setup.
Im not familiar with your speakers, but there's nothing you'll be able to do to vasylt improve your centre with any of the interconnecting cables for your source components. You can try upping the crossover for the centre (maybe try 110Hz, or 130Hz), which will ease the load on your centre, and with it producing less bass, it may sound clearer - results will depend on how good the speaker is and how it's been designed.
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Soopafly49 said:
Technically, the centre should be set to small as its smaller than the front pair, but if you check the specs, they use the same drivers, so as far as volume and headroom are concerned, they're the same. The front left and right will reach deeper because of the extra cabinet volume, but that's not going to affect what the speaker can do as far as volume is concerned. Personally I'd set them both to small, at a crossover point of about 60 or 70Hz, and let the sub take some of the load. The 686's use the same size drivers, but only have a single bass driver, so they've not got the headroom that the 684's have. I'd set the to about 80 or 90Hz.
The higher the crossover point, the less excursion on the bass driver (travel), the further you can push them. Just don't take that recommendation to extremes, unless your receiver is up to it!
With Audyssey, it's worth doing a couple of auto setups, especially if you can save them to presets, as mainstream Audyssey can be a little inconsistent sometimes. If you can save them to memory, try doing three, then have a look at the differences between them! You can choose which you prefer, then tweak from there.
atanakata
Well-known member
Hiya, David. Thanks a lot for that piece of advice. I won`t bother bi-wiring then. No,the rest of the speakers are not set to -8 -9..They are set in between 0 + 2,5 db. Only the rear left is set to -3 db as it is very close to my sitting position .
It is very interesting that you are advising Sopafly49 to set the fronts to Small. The 684 are quite big speakers as are my Mezzo 6. What would be the difference if we change from Large to Small... What is the logic in that. Thanks a lot once again
It is very interesting that you are advising Sopafly49 to set the fronts to Small. The 684 are quite big speakers as are my Mezzo 6. What would be the difference if we change from Large to Small... What is the logic in that. Thanks a lot once again
Hi Soopafly49,
Just to say then I experienced the same as you, so I read a lots about that and experienced an unumbered configurations.
Maybe this could help you: Movies are registred at 85 dB...much more then normal listening.
That mean you will have the good scale at this volume. Like that, you're surrounded by a field of sound like movie producer would like to give us. If you try to tested it, you will see than everything come in place: clear voice, soundstage, punch and for sure, angry neirbourgs!
All said, I don't thing that resolved your trouble!
Now, two ways of thinking:
1. THX. All speakers setting at 80 Hz crossover and the sub manage everything under 80 Hz.
2. Audyssey. Each speakers get a setting corresponding to their characteristic via a sound test through listening points. That based on time delay, individual speaker capacity and volume registred at listening points.
You could have more details on audyssey.com (good reading)
I know then setting are different on each receiver and not all of them had audyssey. So, if you does'nt have audyssey on your receiver, I suggest to set all speakers to small ( THX configuration ) where small mean 80 Hz crossover. And finally, increase yourself the center channel at your listening taste. Find movies with sound action surrounding ex: A vehicule passing through left to right must have the volume intensity in the center then left and right. Do it at your principal listening volume and fine tune the sub volume. must be good.
In my case (opinion), I prefer audyssey setting. By taking care of the speakers characteristics and the time delay, you get the best of the two worlds ( why spend money to expensive speakers to cut it's at 80 Hz ? ). Low frequencys are distributed all arround and the sub get less ''overloaded''. That give you more precision and reduced the muuuuddddyy bass!!! Again, you gonna have to adjust the center channel to your listening volume and some fine tunning and go!
Good luck with your setting,
Give me feed back if that help you.
Just to say then I experienced the same as you, so I read a lots about that and experienced an unumbered configurations.
Maybe this could help you: Movies are registred at 85 dB...much more then normal listening.
That mean you will have the good scale at this volume. Like that, you're surrounded by a field of sound like movie producer would like to give us. If you try to tested it, you will see than everything come in place: clear voice, soundstage, punch and for sure, angry neirbourgs!
All said, I don't thing that resolved your trouble!
Now, two ways of thinking:
1. THX. All speakers setting at 80 Hz crossover and the sub manage everything under 80 Hz.
2. Audyssey. Each speakers get a setting corresponding to their characteristic via a sound test through listening points. That based on time delay, individual speaker capacity and volume registred at listening points.
You could have more details on audyssey.com (good reading)
I know then setting are different on each receiver and not all of them had audyssey. So, if you does'nt have audyssey on your receiver, I suggest to set all speakers to small ( THX configuration ) where small mean 80 Hz crossover. And finally, increase yourself the center channel at your listening taste. Find movies with sound action surrounding ex: A vehicule passing through left to right must have the volume intensity in the center then left and right. Do it at your principal listening volume and fine tune the sub volume. must be good.
In my case (opinion), I prefer audyssey setting. By taking care of the speakers characteristics and the time delay, you get the best of the two worlds ( why spend money to expensive speakers to cut it's at 80 Hz ? ). Low frequencys are distributed all arround and the sub get less ''overloaded''. That give you more precision and reduced the muuuuddddyy bass!!! Again, you gonna have to adjust the center channel to your listening volume and some fine tunning and go!
Good luck with your setting,
Give me feed back if that help you.
Thanks guys. does anyone know if saved settings, assuming I can save them, will be lost by turning of at the plug don't leave things on standby.not sure if this is a silly question but hey.LaGazole said:
Hi,
In concern of saved setting in the receiver, must be still saved maybe you shut the power. If you experiment a power dip or a power shortage, the setting supposed to stay saved on your receiver.
Back to my last post, I forgot to tell you then another avantage of audyssey is the configuration of the speakers could increase the stereo listening without changing all your setting since your speakers are already to their maximum capacities.
Please take a look on audyssey.com, useful!!!
In concern of saved setting in the receiver, must be still saved maybe you shut the power. If you experiment a power dip or a power shortage, the setting supposed to stay saved on your receiver.
Back to my last post, I forgot to tell you then another avantage of audyssey is the configuration of the speakers could increase the stereo listening without changing all your setting since your speakers are already to their maximum capacities.
Please take a look on audyssey.com, useful!!!
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
Atanas Rangelov said:
Let's not get too hung up on the meaning of the word 'small'. By setting a speaker to small, you're not implying to the processor that you've got tiny speakers, you're just limiting the bass that reaches them. You can set a large pair of floorstanders to small, but still allow bass down to about 40Hz to go to them - a small speaker won't reach 40Hz. Basically what we're doing is taking some of the load off the main speakers (the front three are doing most of the work) so that the frequency range they do cover is less 'stressed'. A speaker that is less stressed, and has less to do, can do what it does better.
In a system using a big pair of floorstanders, a centre which is half the physical size of the front speakers, and a small pair of bookshelf speakers, you have speakers with three different capabilities. An auto setup might set the fronts to large, the centre to 60Hz, and the rear to 80Hz. Very few floorstanders can meaningfully reach below 30Hz, but in this system, the sub bass in the signal is being sent not only to the sub, but the front speakers too. They're going to try and reproduce this, which they're not going to be able to do. This is placing unecessary stress on the front speakers, which is going to affect how well they can reproduce what they're designed to. Also, if you have a room mode around 60Hz, the clarity of the centre is going to be affected by this. Plus, because of these differing crossover points, you've got a system full of 're-directed' sounds. Anything below 80Hz at the rear will be directed to the front pair, and anything below 60Hz from the centre will be directed to the front pair to. If the crossover point of the front pair is 40Hz, you could have a bass sweep in the rear speakers start behind you, move to the front pair, then move to the sub. Obviously, this isn't good for imaging and will affect the soundfield.
If you set ALL of the speakers to 80Hz (some receivers will allow you to keep this THX crossover point during an auto setup), then they're all reproducing the same frequency range, giving you a more consistent soundfield. They'll blend better tonally, and you won't be asking one speaker to do more than any other one. They'll all sound clearer as the sub is doing more work (this does require a decent sub though - a £100 job won't cut it). Most people seem to have problem with bass modes between about 30-70Hz, so setting all speakers to 80Hz is avoiding the problem bass area for all speakers. Obviously this issue then moves to the sub, but at least you'll only have one speaker then to integrate rather than five. The THX way of doing things gives a far more predictable end result for a variety of rooms, whereas lower crossover points can bring up multiple issues which will vary from room to room.
I think I've covered what I need to there....
atanakata
Well-known member
Wow,David , that was a lecture ... Thank you for your time and thoughts. Just one more question. You know Denon`s , and probably the rest of the receivers, have an option in the Menu to chose from LFE and LFE+Main. I though that choosing the LFE only, means that the front speakers are not loaded with those unnecessary Low frequencies ... Isn`t that an option ? Or you think the THX-way is still better ? In that case should I switch Off the Audyssey from the Set-up of the receiver ? Thank you once again....
Frank Harvey
Well-known member
I've never really had much success setting up systems where the bass goes to the sub and main speakers, so it's something I rarely recommend. It's benefits can be a fuller sounding front pair of speakers, but always found it stifled the sub a little. Don't forget, the more bass being handled by your front pair, the more issues you're going to have. I still feel the best way is the THX way, but like hi-fi, it's personal preference. Some will prefer LFE+Main. Personally, I don't get on with it. Stick with Audyssey for movies, but experiment, as Audyssey can be a little inconsistent sometimes - this might partly be down to microphone placement, as sometimes moving it 1" can give quite different results.
Dont worry about setting everything to small ruining music - for 2-channel you can use Direct or Pure Direct/Pure Audio etc, which will bypass any processing, and on most amps give you full range stereo (sometimes user configurable in the setup menu).
Right, after 3 hours unpaid overtime, I'm off to relax! :cheers:
Dont worry about setting everything to small ruining music - for 2-channel you can use Direct or Pure Direct/Pure Audio etc, which will bypass any processing, and on most amps give you full range stereo (sometimes user configurable in the setup menu).
Right, after 3 hours unpaid overtime, I'm off to relax! :cheers:
atanakata
Well-known member
Cheers David :cheers: . Relax - very well deserved : ) I am going to try out your recommendations over the weekend , hopefully, and will give you a feedback later on. I am not worried about 2 - channel stereo as I have bought a Leema Pulse for that . You have " Elements " in Coventry , but not the Pulse, otherwise I would have contacted you. All the best for now
Lets say I set the speakers this way with fronts and centre at 80hz so the sub handles all the lower frequencys. I take it that would mean that the sub will be kicking harder as there is less bass coming fronts. will the sub be kicking as much as if I had the fronts on full band? so in theory Ive just got bass coming from the one sub rather than all three. Considering neibourghs and all
Lets say I set the speakers this way with fronts and centre at 80hz so the sub handles all the lower frequencys. I take it that would mean that the sub will be kicking harder as there is less bass coming fronts. will the sub be kicking as much as if I had the fronts on full band? so in theory Ive just got bass coming from the one sub rather than all three. Considering neibourghs and all
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