Can this be true...

[stereoman]

Guys, an interesting article :

https://jakekuyser.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/do-hi-fi-amplifiers-sound-alike/

I'm not saying that now all 20.000 $ amps sound like a 500 $ ones - but I wouldn't be so surprised if it really turned out that in principle all amps sound "alike" and maybe sometimes it's worthy to put extra money into better loudspeakers ?

 

[Infiniteloop]

In theory they should all sound the same if the components are of a decent enough quality and the output frequency response is flat. However, in the real world it's not so simple. To my ears it's how an amplifier drives speakers that counts.

 

[stereoman]

To my ears it's how an amplifier drives speakers that counts.

Definitive.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_1653360097]

Look, if things did not sound different to us, then we would all be satisfied, but we all have different systems, and for a reason, because it sounded better than the other one, when we upgrade, if it did not sound better, we would send it back?

The real question is for £20,000 does it sound 40 times better?, money does not always mean you will like the sound, but for that kind of money it should sound better, to someone.

 

[Frank Harvey]

A mix of blatantly obvious statements, extremely general advice, and tosh:
[*]1/ Hi-fi amplifiers do sound the same to human listeners......[*]2/ Power output is important to avoid distortion at loud volume......[*]3/ When buying an amp and speakers, you don’t need to match the sound of the amp to the sound of the speakers.[*]4/ You can enjoy hi-fi music without spending a fortune......[*]5/ You need 100 watts per channel RMS @ 0.03%THD into average hi-fi speakers to fill a modest living room with loud music without clipping distortion......[*]6/ AV Amps do sound good with music in stereo direct mode. As good as a stereo hi-fi amp......[*]7/ Speakers make much more difference to the sound. Spend more on your speakers than your amp......[*]8/ Digital amps (Class D) sound just as good as Class A analog amps and they use much less power from the wall socket......[*]9/ You don’t need to spend £1000+ on an amplifier to enjoy high fidelity music......[*]10/ You only need to look at impedance specification when matching speakers to amplifiers. IE If your speakers are 2 ohm, can your amp drive a 2 ohm load?.....[*]11/ Choose your amp based on inputs, specification, features, looks, warranty and build quality. Ignore talk of tonality, musicality, pacing, richness, or vividness etc...[/list]
1/ His first blanket statement is too definitive.

2/ Obvious statement.

3/ Well seeing as amplifiers do sound different, just as speakers do, tonal matching is needed, either to produce a balanced tone or something that pleases personal preference. Plus, I've heard some speakers sound like garbage with some amplifiers - and that wasn't a power issue.

4/ Obvious statement

5/ A bit of a vague statement, depends on the "average speaker". But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on this one, although not sure how you can be so specific regarding the distortion figure without a defined example.

6/ AV amps *can* sound good in Direct Mode (and even out of it). It *can* be as good as *some* stereo amps. There's a lot of variables here though, and also introduces the usual "all DACs sound the same" argument.

7/ Speakers can "make much more" instantly noticeable difference in quick AB demos to the sound to the average ear. To then go on and make a blanket statement about spending more on the speakers than amp is bad advice, in my opinion. It's exactly this sort of advice that finds users on AVF with high quality, demanding speakers costing £5k which they 'bought on a deal' being driven by £600 AV receivers.

8/ Obvious statement.

9/ Obvious statement.

10/ Taking impedance into account can be important, but impedance isn't necessarily the be all and end all in some cases.

11/ Choosing your amp on those aspects is important, some more than others. But again, some amp/speaker combinations just sound bland/dull/uninspiring/lacking etc etc. And going by his statement, don't use adjectives to describe the sound you're after, because they don't exist. Now describe the sound you're looking for!

 

[Native_bon]

If amps are neutral then all amps should sound the same.(All things being equal) The Question is, are all amps neutral?. As per AV amps you will struggle to distinguish from a 2 channel amp in a blind test in price range 2k and above.

There may be some truth to the article, but some of it is far fetched.

 

[drummerman]

I had copied and pasted his bullet points, but they've gone awry. Apologies. In the last, when I've tried to correct this, it makes no difference. But I'll try.

That's ok.

I lost interest in the thread as soon as I realised what the subject was ;-)

No offense to the OP.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I had copied and pasted his bullet points, but they've gone awry. Apologies. In the past, when I've tried to correct this, it makes no difference. But I'll try.

 

[Frank Harvey]

That's ok.

I lost interest in the thread as soon as I realised what the subject was ;-)

No offense to the OP.

I suppose in direct answer to the OP's first 'question', yes, it could be true - if you want to believe it.

 

[Gaz37]

That we're fooling ourselves.

I accept that entirely, marketing, expectation and peer pressure are powerful subliminal things.

I had a Marantz CD63, I now have KI version & I'm sure that the latter sounds hugely better, but does it really?
I connected both to the same amp through different inputs and played the same pieces of music through both, I'm sure the KI is far better sounding but I am prepared to accept that is because I want it to sound better, I've been told it sounds better and it cost x3 the price.
Could I tell the difference in a blind test?
I think I could but I thought I preferred Coke to Pepsi until I did a blind taste and found the opposite to be true.

I firmly believe that the more you spend the more you want it to sound better and that you can convince yourself that it does exactly that.

 

[Gaz37]

That's ok.

I lost interest in the thread as soon as I realised what the subject was ;-)

No offense to the OP.

I suppose in direct answer to the OP's first 'question', yes, it could be true - if you want to believe it.

If you accept this to be true you have to also accept that things can also sound better or different if you want to believe it.

 

[avole]

unless they measure the same. That includes power rating not just into 8ohm or 4ohm but also speaker requirements. Two 80w amps will not necessarily sound the same driving a speaker that dips into 2 ohm unless they are built to do so. Be aware that the one that isn't built for 2 ohm is likely to distort so may not sound that good, but that doesn't mean it won't sound the same as the other when driving easier loads.

Other factors are THD, frequency response etc, but, all things being equal, a 200W Krell will sound the same as a 200W Yamaha, irrespective of price. Whether it will last as long is a moot point. Anyway, in the end it's always the speaker that defines how an amp will sound.

 

[drummerman]

The key word usually used in those by naysayers beloved ABX statements is 'all else being equal'.

Now we know that is almost certainly never the case in real life circumstances and even if it was it would be for for a very small window looking into an amplifiers broad performance evaluation which is seldom constant.

So even if someone manages to make a McIntosh sound 'the same' at 5watts as a small Denon ... it is unlikely to continue at all volumes and in to different speakers which all place their own demands on amplification.

Not just that, distortion behaviour, damping, output impedance, even volume control used etc etc vary so wildly between amplifiers of even the same topologies as to make the statement 'all sound the same' somewhat unlikely imho.

If all amplifiers were equal ie. the same ... I'd agree

 

[avole]

Think you've missed the point, DM. Surely you must agree that, if two amplifiers measure exactly the same, they're going to sound the same, even allowing for faith-based beliefs

 

[drummerman]

Think you've missed the point, DM. Surely you must agree that, if two amplifiers measure exactly the same, they're going to sound the same, even allowing for faith-based beliefs

When do two amplifiers measure exactly the same?

 

[avole]

When do two amplifiers measure exactly the same?

More often than you think. Remember, the aim of any amp is a FFR.

 

[drummerman]

When do two amplifiers measure exactly the same?

More often than you think. Remember, the aim of any amp is a FFR.

No they don't.

If they measure similar it may be at industry standard test frequencies/levels not over a broad range of operating conditions.

I have never looked out for it but I would say it is very unlikely I find two amplifiers that measure the same in all the time I have read PM's lab test on amps.

Having said that, I gladly admit fault if you can find them.

 

[pyrrhon]

Audio as we hear it does not exist outside our consciousness in a form thats anywhere comparable to our representation (or does it?). Its all subjective unless you get to air vibrations that seems to be the only objective measurable thing. Everything in our consciousness is subjective and highly biased by many psychho emotional factors. So yes we hear differences but objectively there is minimal and often none. I keep my old stuff and its funny to switch back to an older equipement to realise that the difference is not there anymore when you switch again. The wow factor is gone. Sometimes the wow factor get inverted.

I have been a "it all sound different" advocate but when I started to go back anf forth between 3 good systems over years it became obvious that my expectations had a huge effect.

 

[pyrrhon]

A huge misconception is that listening is something passive. Its actually a 100% active creative thing. Its uncounscious yes but the brain does it actively. The result, a sound perception, is not entering into us from the outside its created in our mind. There is also a lot of patchwork like harmonic extrapolation: the brain assumes the rest of the spectrum when it does not get all stimuli so we actually can hear things the ear did not get right or completely. Ok im getting a bit far but still after years of thinking bout that it actually works with science and subjectivity. Audio is such a world! The physics is far more advanced then the psychology of it but the later should catch up when our misconceptions clears out.

 

[stereoman]

That we're fooling ourselves.

I accept that entirely, marketing, expectation and peer pressure are powerful subliminal things.

I had a Marantz CD63, I now have KI version & I'm sure that the latter sounds hugely better, but does it really? I connected both to the same amp through different inputs and played the same pieces of music through both, I'm sure the KI is far better sounding but I am prepared to accept that is because I want it to sound better, I've been told it sounds better and it cost x3 the price. Could I tell the difference in a blind test? I think I could but I thought I preferred Coke to Pepsi until I did a blind taste and found the opposite to be true.

I firmly believe that the more you spend the more you want it to sound better and that you can convince yourself that it does exactly that.

Interesting. Once I did a test. I connected ( on purpose ) 3 different amps to the speakers I did not like ( an average ones ). I connected Accuphase ( a really good amp), Denon and Yamaha amp. None of these amps AT ALL improved the sound ! I.E. with this certain Loudspeakers nothing helped with amps change and some of these amps especially Accuphase should make these speakers signing. There was of course a subtle difference ( worse or better resolution etc. ) but never to the point of liking the sound of these amps with these speakers. But maybe it is because the difference would be noticable with good loudspeakers ( like Leema for example,but at that time I did not possess them so could not check out. )

 

[NSA_watch_my_toilet]

I'm from those peoples, that gained experience little by little. More and more. By trying, compairing, and try to understand the logic behind the things I tryed to understand. And the more I gained experience, the less I was focused about the "sound of amplifiers". As already written in this thread, for normal home use, for a good speaker that isn't asking for exhorbitantly low impendances nor highest peak of current ; a lot of amps, crafted honestly will work in the same way.

I'm, anyway, using a high end pre+power combi from accuphase. But not because I believe it will change the sound completely. But because I like japan, I like the peoples there, I like well made electronic and like sturdy things. I believe electronic can be a form of art. And in this case, it's electronic nearest to the word "art", as it can get.

 

[stereoman]

I'm, anyway, using a high end pre+power combi from accuphase. But not because I believe it will change the sound completely. But because I like japan, I like the peoples there, I like well made electronic and like sturdy things. I believe electronic can be a form of art. And in this case, it's electronic nearest to the word "art", as it can get.

Absolutely ! Anyway Accuphase is amazing in build and to look at. "Sound" of course might be as well I remember when I first played Accu I was amazed by the sheer treble resolution , but again , with wrong speakers it made no improvment at all over another less expensive amps. But there is a kind of extreme authority from Accuphase. Among its users there is an adage that "once Accuphase - forever Accuphase" , so there must be sth. in it.

 

[Romulus]

I say a big hooray with relief that HiFi can sound different. Our tastes are different and subjective, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder the sonic sound of HiFi is to the beholder of ones ears. HiFi brands understand this which helps to sell their products. So what if to some thinkers regard 'valve sound' and Vinyl sound' is a form of distortion. Some super hi end gazzillion pounds HiFi can be transparent with expressive treble to the point of producing annoying sibilance in the vocals, I never heard sibilance live shows so why should I suffer in private? If all amplifiers were exactly neutral and sounding the same (which they don't) what a boring hobby of listening to music would be (unless its to your taste..?). Viva la difference! Naim/Audio Research ATC/Sonus Faber etc.....

 

[drummerman]

I say a big hooray with relief that HiFi can sound different.  Our tastes are different and subjective, as beauty is in the eye of the beholder the sonic sound of HiFi is to the beholder of ones ears.  HiFi brands understand this which helps to sell their products.  So what if to some thinkers regard 'valve sound' and Vinyl sound' is a form of distortion. Some super hi end gazzillion pounds HiFi can be transparent with expressive treble to the point of producing annoying sibilance in the vocals, I never heard sibilance live shows so why should I suffer in private?  If all amplifiers were exactly neutral and sounding the same (which they don't) what a boring hobby of listening to music would be (unless its to your taste..?). Viva la difference!  Naim/Audio Research ATC/Sonus Faber etc.....

 

Indeed.

As an aside most good gigs I attend probably sound like Naim.

Make of that what you will.

 

[abacus]

2 amps that measure the same into a fixed load (Speaker) will sound the same, however change the load (Speaker) and they could measure and sound different, as one amp may drive the new load better than the other. (This is one of the reasons actives sound good, as the designer knows exactly how the amp and speaker react with each other)

More expensive amps tend to have a meatier power supply, so will more easily drive difficult speakers than a cheaper one, and will thus sound more effortless. (Also, contrary to the golden eared brigade, these differences can be measured more accurately than any living creature on the planet can do subjectively)

Personally, I just enjoy the music, (I like it to be as close to the original as possible (Warts & All) and use whatever gives me the most pleasure.

Hope this helps

Bill