Calling all radio heads - how to optimise my sound?

[Charlie Jefferson]

I've just re-integrated my ancient Videologic DAB player into my main set-up. It's been languishing in the garage for years and even survived the skip and three separate eBay listings, but it's back, perhaps for good.

My main listening in the car and kitchen is Radio 3, 4 and an occasional slice of 6 Music, so this will probably be the case with the hi-fi set up too.

I've hooked it up, via digital coaxial, to my DAC and it sounds great, particularly Radio 3. My question is, what would I need to do to vastly improve my radio hi-fi listening? If future upgrades come a-calling, what would anyone recommend?

(can somebody remove my mistaken and incomplete posting above, please?)

 

[nopiano]

The market for DAB tuners seems pretty scant these days (as opposed to table radios and car radios), and I'm tempted to say get a top of the range FM tuner while you can. The only DAB tuner I recall that was ever really rated as an audiophile product was the now defunct TAG McLaren audio one (can't recall the model number), although some Sony and Denon models fleetingly appeared.

However, as it is, you are surely getting pretty much the best from the data provided. In my experience, HD internet radio is nowhere near FM standard yet, although it can be perfectly listenable.

This would be my pipedream: http://www.magnumdynalab.com/tubeoverview.htm

 

[MajorFubar]

I'm glad nopiano posted before me. When you said you'd got an old DAB radio and you want to know what you can do to improve the sound, first thing I was going to say was "bin it and buy a really good FM tuner and a rooftop aerial", but I was worried that would look smart-a$$ and flippant. Then I saw nopoiano had posted basicaly the same thing and I felt better lol

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

I'm glad nopiano posted before me. When you said you'd got an old DAB radio and you want to know what you can do to improve the sound, first thing I was going to say was "bin it and buy a really good FM tuner and a rooftop aerial", but I was worried that would look smart-a$$ and flippant. Then I saw nopoiano had posted basicaly the same thing and I felt better lol

Well yes, thanks for that. I sold my Denon FM tuner years ago and only bought the DAB out of curiosity really. I've not been too bothered about radio listening in the evening (I listen in the car and the kitchen for a couple of hours a day normally), but an emerging preference for music on R3 has piqued my interest in sound quality. Would a cheap-o FM player really whack my DAB/DAC into touch?

I'd forgotten I had my DAB aerial removed during a house re-build but there must be some remnant up there because I chanced it and put the gnarled aerial cable into the back of the Videologic and strangely it worked.

 

[MajorFubar]

Not sure mate, a lot will depend on how good reception is in your area. As you will know already, being analogue FM is susceptible to hiss and noise if you're in a bad area or if you have a bad aerial.

As for which tuner, there are good bargains to be had on the used market with FM tuners. I bought an early Cyrus tuner in 2010 for about £40 and listening to high quality stations I was amazed by the sound.

 

[chebby]

I notice you have a Mac and a DAC and an ATV.

You love Radio 3.

Radio 3 (via the internet) is 320Kbps and stonking good quality.

There must be some combination of Mac/DAC/ATV/AirPlay and your system that will give you 320k AAC. It will trash DAB for quality (and give the best FM signal into a decent tuner a stiff run for it's money).

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

I notice you have a Mac and a DAC and an ATV.

You love Radio 3.

Radio 3 (via the internet) is 320Kbps and stonking good quality.

There must be some combination of Mac/DAC/ATV/AirPlay and your system that will give you 320k AAC. It will trash DAB for quality (and give the best FM signal into a decent tuner a stiff run for it's money).

Mac to DAC via ATV will surpass DAB/DAC then?

Will try it this afternoon and find out. Maybe, as you point out, the answer to my original question was right under my nose.

Thanks Chebby.

 

[chebby]

Mac to DAC yes.

ATV + AirPlay if you prefer to control things from an iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch without the Mac. (Your AEX should facilitate that too.)

 

[nopiano]

I agree with MF about the reception challenges. I recently had my FM aerial moved onto the roof from the (safer and less visible) loft. The very nice aerial people don't even carry FM aerials now, aside from folded dipoles. He had nothing to align mine save for the meters on my two tuners - the Hitachi listed plus a Sony ES I got for a tenner off EBay. So you do need a strong signal!

I defer to Chebby re the alternative. The irony is that a bargain used FM tuner needs a decent aerial unless you live near a transmitter, and that can mean the total cost is too hgh.

 

[Phileas]

I was under the impression that R3 FM used a lot of dynamic compression compared to the Internet/DAB streams. This would put digital R3 firmly above FM in sound quality.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Mac to DAC yes.

ATV + AirPlay if you prefer to control things from an iPad, iPhone or iPod Touch without the Mac. (Your AEX should facilitate that too.)

Well, I've spent the afternoon playing Radio 3 and comparing an iPad-stream to the Videologic DAB sound. Both are fed into my DAC, the former optically and the latter via digital co-axial.

I was surprised to find the DAB sound was significantly superior. Despite, I'm asssuming, lower bit-rates between the two. The DAB into DAC sound was simply fuller and had a distinctly greater dynamic range. Is this the DAB aerial providing a "better" feed than the wi-fi enabled iPad stream.

I've not streamed directly from Mac to DAC yet, but will give it a go.

My father-in-law (an accomplished classical pianist and hi-fi enthusiast) was also in no doubt, the DAB won out.

What's going on??

 

[Phileas]

What's going on??

See my post above. DAB tuners usually have something called DRC (dynamic range control). This acts like a loudness button by reducing the dynamic range - I'm sure R3 DAB is broadcasted without the compression found on FM. I'm not sure about Internet radio, I assumed it was the same as DAB but may be I was wrong?

Are you using the BBC iPlayer?

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

What's going on??

See my post above. DAB tuners usually have something called DRC (dynamic range control). This acts like a loudness button by reducing the dynamic range - I'm sure R3 DAB is broadcasted without the compression found on FM. I'm not sure about Internet radio, I assumed it was the same as DAB but may be I was wrong?

Are you using the BBC iPlayer?

I always turn off DRC where possible. Radio 3 on the DAB facilitates this.

No, I wasn't using iPlayer. I was streaming from Radio 3's website from my iPad.

 

[Baldrick1]

The market for DAB tuners seems pretty scant these days (as opposed to table radios and car radios), and I'm tempted to say get a top of the range FM tuner while you can...

I may sound biased but I can recommend the Rotel RT-11 FM/DAB (DAB+ ready) tuner, the little brother of the RT-12 Tuner/Streamer that they also do.

Have only had it a while but am very happy with the features, reception & sound of the unit...worth a listen/demo if one is in the hunt for this sort of kit.

 

[Phileas]

I always turn off DRC where possible. Radio 3 on the DAB facilitates this.

No, I wasn't using iPlayer. I was streaming from Radio 3's website from my iPad.

The "lack" of dynamic compression on R3 DAB was one of the things that attracted me when I bought a DAB tuner.

There used to be several different BBC Internet streams of differents kinds and varying bitrates and what you received depended on how and where you accessed it. I don't know what the current situation is.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

More comparative testing reveals that all bar Radio 3 does indeed sound better streamed from iPlayer to AEX. That's Radio 2 & 6 Music anyway.

I still prefer R3 through the DAB. Which is a shame because I would have been happy to rid myself of another box, but R3 is overwhelmingly my evening listening preference if I'm in a radio mood.

So, why is it all bar Radio 3 sound better online&streamed than the DAB?

 

[Phileas]

I've just had a quick listen to R3 on the iPlayer via ATV. I have to say, it seems fine to me, e.g. I can't detect a lack of dynamic range. I did notice that the announcer's voice sounded muffled but music sounded fine.

I don't have a DAB tuner anymore to do a comparison.

 

[Baldrick1]

...So, why is it all bar Radio 3 sound better online&streamed than the DAB?

Could it have something to do with the type of music played. Have you done the same comparison but with Classic FM? :?

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

...So, why is it all bar Radio 3 sound better online&streamed than the DAB?

Could it have something to do with the type of music played. Have you done the same comparison but with Classic FM? :?

I have an aesthetic and clinical aversion to Classic FM, so no I haven't tried that comparison yet. But in the interests of open-minded enquiry, I will.

 

[MajorFubar]

Meh...of the two I prefer Classic FM. Purists ridicule it but it at least makes classical music accessible. Imo Radio 3 comes across as a pompous and elite 'members only' club and doesn't at all encourage me as an outsider to join. Radio 3 reminds me of the days McCartney used to talk about where the classical musicians in Abbey Road refused to eat at the same tables as the Beatles and EMI's other rock/pop acts.

 

[Charlie Jefferson]

Meh...of the two I prefer Classic FM. Purists ridicule it (as above) but it at least makes classical music accessible. Imo Radio 3 comes across as a pompous and elite 'members only' club and doesn't at all encourage me as an outsider to join. Radio 3 reminds me of the days McCartney used to talk about where the classical musicians in Abbey Road refused to eat at the same tables as the Beatles and EMI's other rock/pop acts.

Sorry Major but that just sounds like inverted snobbery. Yes, I know Classic FM is an excellent intro to "classical" music, I just find it too bland.

Personally I don't find Radio 3 elitist at all, it's enlightening and for someone like me, who has listened almost exclusively to "rock and pop" for forty years and only in the last ten years turned to other music, it's an informed source as I discover wonderful new sounds. The classical canon, not just the well-known bits, the less familiar orchestral, choral, operatic and solo instrumental music of the last few centuries are all given time and airplay.

My particular interest of late is music of the last 150 or so years, from orchestral to jazz to modernism and beyond. Radio 3 is the only place I can conveniently access all this. All housed under one roof with an erudite voice often on hand for added insights.

 

[MajorFubar]

Glad you like it
Wouldn't do if we all liked the same things would it?
It would still be interesting to know why the DAB feed is superior to online streaming. You would think they came from the same source.

 

[daveh75]

Its not the source that differs, but the encoding and bitrates applied on the various platforms.

Personly I've always found internet streams better than feeds from DAB/DTT/DSAT (which all use the ancient and horrendously inefficient mp2 at to low bitrates)

 

[MajorFubar]

So if DAB is using older inferior lossy transcoding, you'd think it should sound worse than streaming. Interesting. Worst of the lot where I live, and consistently by a big margin, are Freeview radio stations, Radio 3 included. They all sound far too processed.

 

[spinaltap]

I also own an AppleTV3, but find that the Squeezebox Touch is vastly superior when listening to Radio 3HD at 320kbps.

Even so, it's good to have a decent DAB tuner to hand.

Although no DAB+ broadcasts are currently being transmitted in the UK I am sure they will do so in due course. While DAB+ utilises a supposedly lower bit-rate, this offers the much higher quality AAC codec.

The Yamaha T-D500 to my knowledge is the only DAB+/DAB/FM tuner currently available.