Bright harsh sound with my ProAc D18

[rayleemw]

Hi all,

I have a pair of ProAc D18 speakers for the past 2 years, while I absolutely love the music from it the overall tone seems to be a little bright. Some pieces of music can even be described as too harsh and unenjoyable to listen to.

I have always wondered if there is a weak link in my system and or my components just don't match.

The Proac d18 is paired with an emotiva xpa-2 amp, source is from my computer (cd quality flac files) to Oppo 105 aUSB DAC. I also have an Onkyo PR-SC5509 as a 'pre-amp' and to connect my other stuff.

I have wondered if my emotiva amp is the weak link and or the harsh sounding source. Or is it my Oppo player with the ESS Sabre DAC? Where I live is almost impossible to audition with the same equipment. I have auditioned the Caspian M2 using their own Roksan speakers and their CD player and it a totally different sound - actually my ProAc setup sounded far better.

My budget now allows me to upgrade a component in my system and I hope to make the sound more balanced and get ride of the brightness. However I will always use my computer as source as I found it to be the easiest way.

Thanks for your advise.

 

[matt49]

Quite often the impression of brightness or harshness can be the result of acoustic problems in the room. It would be helpful to know what your room is like. What size is it? Where are the speakers and listening position in relation to the walls? What maaterials do you have in the room (floor, windows, soft furnishings)?

I would certainly look into this first, as acoustic treatments (assuming you and your significant others can live with them) are almost always cheaper than changes of equipment.

Matt

 

[Frank Harvey]

Have you tried using the variable output from your Oppo to plug directly into you Emotiva to rule out the Onkyo? Also, have you tried sending the signal from the Oppo digitally into the Onkyo to rule out the Sabre DAC? Are the ProAcs set up so that the tweeters are on the inside of the front face, and not on the outside (nearer to the outside walls)?

 

[rayleemw]

Thanks alot for the sugguestions.

The listening room size is small and my speakers are close to the walls, and they are concrete walls also. Typical furnishing here and hard tiles too. I'm renting and treatment is not possible. I guess that would be a big contributing factor?

I've tried to skip the Onkyo and the sound stays the same. However using the Onkyo as a DAC to bypass the Oppo it sounded alot worse. The quality of the Oppo DAC is alot better, very easy to tell with that.

If say I can upgrade a single piece of equipment what can I match to make the overall system 'warmer'?

Cheers

 

[davedotco]

Thanks alot for the sugguestions.

The listening room size is small and my speakers are close to the walls, and they are concrete walls also. Typical furnishing here and hard tiles too. I'm renting and treatment is not possible. I guess that would be a big contributing factor?

I've tried to skip the Onkyo and the sound stays the same. However using the Onkyo as a DAC to bypass the Oppo it sounded alot worse. The quality of the Oppo DAC is alot better, very easy to tell with that.

If say I can upgrade a single piece of equipment what can I match to make the overall system 'warmer'?

Cheers

Without hearing your system it is difficult to know if the problem is equipment based or simply the sound of (bright) modern recordings in an unsympathetic room.

My experience of pro-style amps such as the Emotiva is that they tend to be 'agressively neutral', by that I mean a bit more forward and explicit compared to many 'hi-fi' amplifiers. If you have the chance to borrow another amplifier, almost anything decent will do, try it and see what effect it has on that particular aspect of the sound.

The other simple thing that you could try is to position your speakers so that you are listening more off axis, this might mean increasing the toe in, or if they already are, decreasing it somewhat, worth a try.

The other option would be a separate dac that is voiced to sound a bit 'warmer', a Rega for example, I don't really know the Oppo product so have no real idea how it is voiced.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I get the impression from general views on the net that Emotiva isn't the smoothest products out there, so they may possibly be adding to the problem, which means it could be a number of little things adding up to something much bigger.

Of course, the difference between harsh and bright is pretty big - can you elaborate more, or give some examples of albums you're experiencing these problems with?

I have had a few customers in the last who have come to me with this issue (not with systems bought from me, I may add), who were looking to smooth the system out, but found that while they could achieve that, the whole system sounded rather dull, and lost what they liked about the system in the first place. If there are only occasional issues with harshness, I'd try and weather that storm in order to retain how the system sounds in general.

 

[floyd droid]

The other simple thing that you could try is to position your speakers so that you are listening more off axis, this might mean increasing the toe in, or if they already are, decreasing it somewhat, worth a try.

This ,

before you do anything rash.

 

[davedotco]

The other simple thing that you could try is to position your speakers so that you are listening more off axis, this might mean increasing the toe in, or if they already are, decreasing it somewhat, worth a try.

This ,

before you do anything rash.

You could also try the famed 'toilet paper' mod........ :twisted:

Just increase the number of sheets until you get the balance right......!

Out of interest, check out Andrew Everards review of the Focal CM50 in the 'Active Speakers Thread'. Take particular notice of the controls on the rear of the cabinet.

As a regular user of active speakers I find such adjustment invaluable, at both ends of the spectrum.

 

[Rethep]

How about some nice carpet on the floor, in front of your speakers ?

 

[wilro15]

Carpet on floor helps. I made some custom acoustic panels for the wall which helped too.

I have just bought some new speaker cable (thick copper Van Damme - used to be thin QED silver) to try that out.

Also planning on a pair of GIK broadband panels too.

The whole brightness/warmness thing is kind of annoying. I recently swapped a Leema amp for MF dac/pre-amp/power-amp because I thought the Leema was too dull. The MF sounded great (and still does) but know I find myself getting earache after 20 minutes or so. Its not even loud.

Now I think about it, it does seem very bright so I may end up box swapping again.

 

[ErikM]

As a long time Proac user here's a few tips.. First off Proac's are VERY revealing of everthing.. Also I hate to tell you this but Proac's LOVE TUBES.. As an experiment I'd try and borrow any good tube integrated amp.. hook up the Proac's to it, run the Oppo straight in.. I think, no I know you'll be very surprised!

Also a few other little things to try.. Are the speakers Bi-Wired? that'll help.. if not are you using the supplied jumpers? If you are get rid of them and try and use or make short jumpers made of either the speaker cable you're using or buy some pre-made ones like the Kimber or the Cardas or anything decent.

Placement... Proac's need room around them.. Try and have at least 20inches from the back wall and at very least 24inches to the side walls. Use a tape measure to get it exact! Next toe in the speakers to the listening position so that you see just a sliver of the inside edge.. Make sure the tweeters are to the inside of the cabinet.. Listen and see how the timbre is.. too bright, then little by little toe them out see if that helps..

But truthfully a good tube amp ( or Class A solid state) is going to work wonders..

Oh and you didn't mention how you are using your computer to play files? Is it a Mac or PC? is it hooked up to the Oppo via USB or SPDIF.. and have you tried comparing CD's played on the Oppo vs the computer as a source?

 

[CnoEvil]

As a long time Proac user here's a few tips.. First off Proac's are VERY revealing of everthing.. Also I hate to tell you this but Proac's LOVE TUBES.. As an experiment I'd try and borrow any good tube integrated amp.. hook up the Proac's to it, run the Oppo straight in.. I think, no I know you'll be very surprised!

Also a few other little things to try.. Are the speakers Bi-Wired? that'll help.. if not are you using the supplied jumpers? If you are get rid of them and try and use or make short jumpers made of either the speaker cable you're using or buy some pre-made ones like the Kimber or the Cardas or anything decent.

Placement... Proac's need room around them.. Try and have at least 20inches from the back wall and at very least 24inches to the side walls. Use a tape measure to get it exact! Next toe in the speakers to the listening position so that you see just a sliver of the inside edge.. Make sure the tweeters are to the inside of the cabinet.. Listen and see how the timbre is.. too bright, then little by little toe them out see if that helps..

But truthfully a good tube amp ( or Class A solid state) is going to work wonders..

Oh and you didn't mention how you are using your computer to play files? Is it a Mac or PC? is it hooked up to the Oppo via USB or SPDIF.. and have you tried comparing CD's played on the Oppo vs the computer as a source?

Very good advice, and saves me from saying something fairly similar.

 

[pete321]

I had a similar problem with Proac Studio 140's in a previous system. The Sabre DAC does produce a clinical sound, I'd recommend an audition of a Rega DAC. I only sold mine as I wanted DSD decoding. Also, no silver cables.

 

[rayleemw]

Thank you all for the sugguestions, it really opened up a few things I want to try:

"I had a similar problem with Proac Studio 140's in a previous system. The Sabre DAC does produce a clinical sound, I'd recommend an audition of a Rega DAC. I only sold mine as I wanted DSD decoding. Also, no silver cables."

You are exactly right! - I'm using Chord's silverscreen carnival cables. I'll try to get some good quality cables without any silver component. I have long suspected the DAC is the problem and willing to give the Rega DAC a try. I have used Oppo 95 for just over a year (essentially the same DAC as my current 105) and it was slightly less bright. Sad to see it go as it didn't have the async USB feed from the computer - which is the way I always use to listen to music, its just easiest for me.

I have the NAD M51 also, brightness is about the same with it. Unfortunately even with great reviews and trying to fool myself for 4 months, it is just not as good as the Oppo. Its just not as coherent, I don't truely know how to describe it, not that it sounded bad just lacks a little magic compared to the Oppo. I've been trying to sell it with no luck. Its too expensive and new decent DACs are cheap, a lesson for me.

"First off Proac's are VERY revealing of everthing.. Also I hate to tell you this but Proac's LOVE TUBES."

I am really tempted with tube amps, the question in my mind is will they be powerful enough to drive my ProAc D18? The ones with higher power is a little over my budget. I'm unfamiliar with tube territory, any sugguestions would be appreciated!

"re the speakers Bi-Wired? that'll help.. if not are you using the supplied jumpers? "

They are not bi-wired, and I am using the supplied jumpers. I think I'll take your sugguestion and replace them with a new (non-silver) jumpers same materials as my new cables.

I have tried positioning my D18s, toe in etc. They are about 12 inches from back wall and only about 5 from side walls. Small home, can't do much about it, have to live with it for now haha. I will try again with your method on finding the right placement, thanks for the help.

I play my CD quality FLAC files via PC using foobar 2000, Oppo aUSB ASIO drivers. I have double blinded myself and a friend to test the computer as source, CD as source (Oppo CD, same DAC), and also using a USB stick directly to the player as source. The result is - both of us cannot tell which is which, so I'm very comfortable that the CAS to Oppo does not degrade the audio quality.

Thanks all again for such great help, jumpers, cables, Rega DAC, and possibly a tube/class A amp will be my next step.

Cheers

 

[john hogan.]

Emotiva amps can sound forward with the wrong speakers I found tannoy to forward in the mid range Voices sounded 'shouty ' but ;not bright or harsh now using monitor audio RX 8 with xpa 100 mono blocks to me it sounds excellent.your room sounds bright as is the oppo didn't like it Im also using onkyo preamp CD player is marantz . hope this helps as this is my first post

 

[CnoEvil]

Proac D18s are reasonably "Tube Friendly", with a minimum amp power requirement of 20 W.

You could look at Icon Audio (possibly the Stereo 40)......just avoid piddly powered SET amps.

On the SS Class A front, there is the Sugden A21 SE / IA-4, or the Musical Fidelity AMS 35i.

 

[WishTree]

Hi all,

I have a pair of ProAc D18 speakers for the past 2 years, while I absolutely love the music from it the overall tone seems to be a little bright. Some pieces of music can even be described as too harsh and unenjoyable to listen to.

I used to have Proac Response D2 and on hindsight, I did not find them to be very SS friendly (unless Class A) in treble region. The harsness is not upfront but once I got comfortable with the speakers for longer duration I started noticing it after switing from Pathos Inpol 2 to Classe CAP-2100. Emotiva might be a factor as well.

Proac does midrange superbly well but it is still a hefty price to pay, IMO, if the amplifier needs to be specifically matched to run these speakers to tone down the harshness.

I am a bit more senstive to the treble harshness (may be you, as well) and some room tuning tricks can help to bring it down to more forgetful levels.

I have the Oppo BDP-105D and with Anthony Gallo Strada as well as current Beolab 9, I can confirm that Oppo is no culprit ever! Based on my ownership experience these two speakers along with KEF Reference are the only speakers that I experienced which did not have any harshness that I could perceive!

PS: I do not agree with the Rega DAC advice (which again, is my very personal opinion / experience) as I had the Rega DAC at one point of time and I would say that the performance of Oppo is way ahead of Rega DAC. If you can borrow one easily, then it could be worth a try as it is always good to check out what works out best in one system.

 

[ErikM]

A couple of amp suggestions:

PrimaLuna, Great Value, Great Sound

Pathos, Classic MKIII Hybrid, tube front end, solid state output

ARC, VSI 60 , or they have a newer one with a bit more power called the VSI 75

Ayon Audio, Orion MKIII would work a treat.. ( I have the Spirit MKIII driving Proac D30R)

Also I wouldn't diss the ESS Sabre Chip.. the SQ of a Dac is a LOT more than the Dac chip, it's really more about the analog output satge , power supplies.. pretty much everything around the actual Dac chip..

Oh and room acoustics.. You could just buy some fabric.. Cordroy works well and hang it on the walls next to the speakers. to help dampen the room. If your're worried about damaging the walls since you rent use these: http://www.command.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/NACommand/Command/Products/Catalog/?N=5584772+5924736+3294529207&rt=r3

And lastly are you using any kind of Mains power conditioning? Mains quality can make a huge difference in the overall good or bad SQ of a system.

 

[WishTree]

If say I can upgrade a single piece of equipment what can I match to make the overall system 'warmer'?

A bit warmer and no compromise on resolution with Oppo BDP-105 + Emotiva could be B&W 804D speakers.

Also, I stand corrected from my previous post as I find that 804D are harshness free along with Vivid Audio V1.5, Rethm Saadhana amongst the speakers that I have heard.

 

[lpv]

since your source is a pc, did you try tune your system using equalizer? it's free, it's digital, it's not a crime.

 

[ErikM]

Just an FYI, Proac's are voiced with tube gear.. It's kind of why they sound so good with them... Also Proac's aren't alone in the high performance speaker market of needing to have the correct partnering amp to get the most out of them..

That said there are other speakers that are less particular about the amp that drives them, but they also tend ( not always ) to be less resolving too.

And lastly there's a reason that Proac is switching their higher end models over to ribbon tweeters...

 

[Happy_Listner]

Ray,

If I can be honest and direct with you here. You want to know what the problem is? It is your emotiva xpa-2 amp, source (cd quality flac files) to Oppo 105 aUSB DAC, Onkyo PR-SC5509 as a 'pre-amp' and to connect my other stuff.

Everything but the Proacs!

Sorry, but it's true. I own Proacs and they are very insightful and revealing speakers. Proacs are the type of speakers that matches up well with Tubes and Vinyl or smoother sounding solid state and digital gear.

Not with inexpensive powerful solid state amps or surround sound receivers used as a "pre-amp". Some computer files can also sound really bad. Also, not familiar with the Oppo but I am not sure if the USB is passing along all the digital info. Some only go so high.

Frankly your Proacs are in another league form your other gear and they are telling you so. If I were you I would keep the Proacs and sell everything else then start over. Get a quality lower powered integrated amp such as the new Hegel H80 with a built in DAC and USB. You can stream High Rez files then directly from it. I heard it and it sounds smooth. Or get a Tube integrated amp and a Marantz 8005 CD player. It has digital inputs and USB.

Check out some record players too. Once you get used to good sounding analogue it's really hard to go back to digital. All of this will take some of edge and brightness out of the Proacs.

But If you like you gear then sell the Proacs and buy some less expensive or less revealing speakers.

Hope this helps and I hope you don't mind my honesty,

Cheers

:cheers:

 

[CnoEvil]

To carry on from what Erik and Happy Listener have said, here are a couple of old threads by a member who had a similar problem: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/newbie-help-please-0
and http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/driving-proac-d38s

 

[plastic penguin]

Hi all,

I have a pair of ProAc D18 speakers for the past 2 years, while I absolutely love the music from it the overall tone seems to be a little bright. Some pieces of music can even be described as too harsh and unenjoyable to listen to.

I have always wondered if there is a weak link in my system and or my components just don't match.

The Proac d18 is paired with an emotiva xpa-2 amp, source is from my computer (cd quality flac files) to Oppo 105 aUSB DAC. I also have an Onkyo PR-SC5509 as a 'pre-amp' and to connect my other stuff.

I have wondered if my emotiva amp is the weak link and or the harsh sounding source. Or is it my Oppo player with the ESS Sabre DAC? Where I live is almost impossible to audition with the same equipment. I have auditioned the Caspian M2 using their own Roksan speakers and their CD player and it a totally different sound - actually my ProAc setup sounded far better.

My budget now allows me to upgrade a component in my system and I hope to make the sound more balanced and get ride of the brightness. However I will always use my computer as source as I found it to be the easiest way.

Thanks for your advise.

I reckon it's your amp. I've no experience of it but it is priced at around $900, which equates to about £550. I would confidently say your amp is struggling to control £2200 pair of speakers.

As the others have said, look at a better amp or exchange the D18s for something a little more suited to a £500 amp.

 

[chebby]

I would confidently say your amp is struggling to control £2200 pair of speakers.

With 300 wpc @ 8 Ohms and 500 wpc @ 4 Ohms, I wouldn't think control was a problem or that any 'struggling' was going on.

Is there any possibility of trying out a Benchmark DAC / Pre instead of the Onkyo AV pre-amp? (Try the Benchmark connected to your power amp with balanced XLR.)