Be careful what you wish for

[insider9]

Some of you may remember I've started a thread about amp servicing not so long ago. Primare A30.1 is such a great amp that I'd be hard pushed for something I like more. I was at a stage that only one more upgrade (source/streamer) would mean I was there. Or so I thought...

Not long after posting I came across a rather reasonably priced I22. Wasn't really looking for an amp as a streamer was my next planned upgrade. I was yet to hear Class D Primare, so I thought it would be rather nice to give it a go. For the last week I've been trying to decide which of the two amps will stay with me. There are reviews out there so I don't intend this in any other way as a comparison of the two.

Both units share similar characteristics. Both can create a very involving wide and deep soundstage and precise images. Both are musical yet detailed. Now this is where it gets tricky. I feel that I22 offers more in terms of sheer detail the soundstage is even better organised and the detail easier to pick out. It's probably a tad more rhytmic, also. On the other hand A30.1 timbre and overall tonality wins. The instruments sound more real. Somehow A30.1 transfers more emotion than the I22 particularly felt in vocals and solos. Being warmer and sweeter sounding make it also a better pairing for my speakers. I22 can sometimes feel hard in the treble. The bass authority of A30.1 is also felt where it just sound fuller. I feel like A30.1 is more suited to jazz/classical where I22 is overall a great performer. Now from a practical point of view I22 is a much newer unit and needs a mere 16W of electricity with A30.1 drawing as much as 600W!

I'm totally at a loss here. I love the insight I get from I22. It's more, for the lack of the better word for it, hifi. Yet the tonality isn't exactly to my taste and I turn down the treble on preamp by 1db to make it more to my taste. A30.1 though makes me feel like performers are in the room and the instruments sound like in real life. After listening to I22 now the A30.1 feels less organised and a tad slower. But I22 has not brought any tears to my eyes yet where it wasn't so uncommon with A30.1. My head tells me I22, but my heart screams A30.1. I even listed A30.1 on eBay and after a guy from Finland contacted me and amassed many watchers over night pulled the ad in fear I was going to regret it.

What have I done?! Anyone been where I am? I feel like there is no way back. I can't unhear the things I've heard. I want the best of both worlds. Is there such an amp? Please help.

 

[CnoEvil]

Personally, I wouldn't have any difficulty in deciding what to do.

I will always favour organic musicality over a highly detailed "HiFi" sound. The former will give you hours of listening pleasure; the latter will seem incredible for half an hour, but then you find yourself turning down the volume. The latter sounds great with beautifully recorded music, but renders everything else in a more grating way.

So....I'm not telling you what to do......but GO WITH YOUR HEART!! It's about the music, not about the HiFi.

 

[insider9]

Haha, thanks Cno. For "lack of" advice it's quite specific Yes, organic is the word I'd use when describing A30.1.

I'm now just wondering whether there a alternatives that will give me best of both. A completely different amp? Would a valve pre do the trick? Retaining all the goodness of Class D amplification while providing more of that organic feel.

 

[MajorFubar]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype warning for the professionally offendeds] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart.

 

[insider9]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart [/sexist stereotype]

Haha Major, I've gone with the first one as I love to cook myself :biggrin:

EDIT

And your description of her cooking skills is spot on. Have you two met?

 

[Electro]

Haha, thanks Cno. For "lack of" advice it's quite specific Yes, organic is the word I'd use when describing A30.1.

I'm now just wondering whether there a alternatives that will give me best of both. A completely different amp? Would a valve pre do the trick? Retaining all the goodness of Class D amplification while providing more of that organic feel.

Many years ago I owned a Primare A 301 and also the CD302 Cd player.

The A301 was a great amp lovely to look at and solid build with a powerful detailed sound .

It always sounded a bit slow and plodding for want of a better description, it was as if it was musclebound and unable to move quickly.

A change to an Electrocompaniet amp gave me everything I was looking for and a whole lot more, it could do the solid powerful thing but was so fast and delcate at the same time , it was a revelation .

I kept the CD302 until the nasty cdm 12.4 laser mechanism died even after a new one was fitted but it was sublime when working.

Try an Electrocompaniet amp you will never look back . *smile*

 

[insider9]

Haha, thanks Cno. For "lack of" advice it's quite specific Yes, organic is the word I'd use when describing A30.1.

I'm now just wondering whether there a alternatives that will give me best of both. A completely different amp? Would a valve pre do the trick? Retaining all the goodness of Class D amplification while providing more of that organic feel.

Many years ago I owned a Primare A 301 and also the CD302 Cd player.

The A301 was a great amp lovely to look at and solid build with a powerful detailed sound .

It always sounded a bit slow and plodding for want of a better description, it was as if it was musclebound and unable to move quickly.

A change to an Electrocompaniet amp gave me everything I was looking for and a whole lot more, it could do the solid powerful thing but was so fast and delcate at the same time , it was a revelation .

I kept the CD302 until the nasty cdm 12.4 laser mechanism died even after a new one was fitted but it was sublime when working.

Try an Electrocompaniet amp you will never look back . *smile*

Interesting, thanks Electro. Yes A30.1 is slower than I22. That's one of the features that makes I22 more universal. With jazz you don't really notice A30.1 lacking anything. It shows up with rock and metal. I22 carries rhytm better.

Any Electrocompaniet you could recommend? Ideally second hand as martial harmony is also important to me.

 

[Samd]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype warning for the professionally offendeds] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart.

..my moose a spare hat rack for her birthday - she was OK with that - a skimmed Trilby can be a bit sharp on the forehead.

 

[Electro]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype warning for the professionally offendeds] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart.

..my moose a spare hat rack for her birthday - she was OK with that - a skimmed Trilby can be a bit sharp on the forehead.

It's the Moose for me every time ! *biggrin*

 

[chebby]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype warning for the professionally offendeds] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart.

..my moose a spare hat rack for her birthday - she was OK with that - a skimmed Trilby can be a bit sharp on the forehead.

It's the Moose for me every time ! *biggrin*

Is she called Elkie?

 

[Al ears]

Cno's advice is spot on. What you've learned is there isn't a jack of all trades, there is a master of one of the the other in your case. Only you can decide which one you want to live with long term.

[sexist stereotype warning for the professionally offendeds] It's like having to choose between a drop dead gorgeous girlfriend who can barely warm a tin of beans or an ugly fat moose who smells a bit but cooks you a Michelin-quality cullinary delight every day. Only you can choose which is going to steal your heart.

..my moose a spare hat rack for her birthday - she was OK with that - a skimmed Trilby can be a bit sharp on the forehead.

It's the Moose for me every time ! *biggrin*

Is she called Elkie?

Shurellly Ann Elk. (Ed.)

 

[drummerman]

I dislike amplifiers/systems that don't do Rythm and Attack properly. I dislike systems that sound too dry and/or Hifi.

I listen to Jazz, Classical and Death Metal/Rock so a system has to cover quite a range.

Abrahamsen used to get a few good recommendations if the suggested Electrocompaniet is too expensive but folks that also used Nord with their powerful Hypex modules seemed to prefer the latter. Also used by BelCanto and others. Good value.

 

[CnoEvil]

There are amps out there that will do that, to differing degrees.

Brands like Ayre, Classe, Plinius, Accuphase, Sugden Audio Research, Croft and Luxman....and of course, my own MF AMS35i. The downside is often power consumption.

Valves could be a good shout....as there are some out there that give a detailed and dramatic, but euphonic sound...Icon Audio, Puresound and VTL.

Devialet, which I haven't heard, is said to give something like you are looking for....but I have yet to hear a Class D amp that delivers the sound I'm after.

 

[insider9]

I dislike amplifiers/systems that don't do Rythm and Attack properly. I dislike systems that sound too dry and/or Hifi.

I listen to Jazz, Classical and Death Metal/Rock so a system has to cover quite a range.

Abrahamsen used to get a few good recommendations if the suggested Electrocompaniet is too expensive but folks that also used Nord with their powerful Hypex modules seemed to prefer the latter. Also used by BelCanto and others. Good value.

Thanks for pointers. Electrocompaniet does cost quiet a bit, true.

It's not that A30.1 doesn't do rhythm. I22 is just faster and must say with similarities I enjoy this quite a lot. Listened to more rock recently because of that.

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

 

[Electro]

Haha, thanks Cno. For "lack of" advice it's quite specific Yes, organic is the word I'd use when describing A30.1.

I'm now just wondering whether there a alternatives that will give me best of both. A completely different amp? Would a valve pre do the trick? Retaining all the goodness of Class D amplification while providing more of that organic feel.

Many years ago I owned a Primare A 301 and also the CD302 Cd player.

The A301 was a great amp lovely to look at and solid build with a powerful detailed sound .

It always sounded a bit slow and plodding for want of a better description, it was as if it was musclebound and unable to move quickly.

A change to an Electrocompaniet amp gave me everything I was looking for and a whole lot more, it could do the solid powerful thing but was so fast and delcate at the same time , it was a revelation .

I kept the CD302 until the nasty cdm 12.4 laser mechanism died even after a new one was fitted but it was sublime when working.

Try an Electrocompaniet amp you will never look back . *smile*

Interesting, thanks Electro. Yes A30.1 is slower than I22. That's one of the features that makes I22 more universal. With jazz you don't really notice A30.1 lacking anything. It shows up with rock and metal. I22 carries rhytm better.

Any Electrocompaniet you could recommend? Ideally second hand as martial harmony is also important to me.

The Eci 3 or Eci 5 integrated amps are very very good but if you can stretch to a pre /power amp then the older EC4.7 preamp with the AW 120 power amp is very special indeed.

They are sometimes hard to find second hand but it is well worth the wait .

A couple of reviews.

http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/amplifiers/electrocompaniet-eci-3-618281/review

http://www.dagogo.com/electrocompaniet-eci-5-mkii-amplifier-review

http://www.electrocompaniet.com/files/reviews/hifi_choice_copy_2.pdf

 

[insider9]

A lot to digest. Thanks again, Electro

 

[CnoEvil]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Class A, AB and Class D sound different imo, with AB sounding closer to A (depending on bias). For me, Class D sounds very clean, fast and neutral, if a bit analytical.....but leaves me a bit cold.

As long as you pick what you like, it doesn't matter a jot.

 

[drummerman]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Yes, BelCanto sounds 'rich and quite warm'. Go on youtube and you can hear some examples. There are others.

 

[CnoEvil]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Yes, BelCanto sounds 'rich and quite warm'. Go on youtube and you can hear some examples. There are others.

I think its fair to say it sounds "rich for a Class D", but its no Electrocompaniet imo.

 

[drummerman]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Yes, BelCanto sounds 'rich and quite warm'. Go on youtube and you can hear some examples. There are others.

I think its fair to say it sounds "rich for a Class D", but its no Electrocompaniet imo.

I have never heard Electrocompaniet Cno. You are better placed to comment on that.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Some of you may remember I've started a thread about amp servicing not so long ago. Primare A30.1 is such a great amp that I'd be hard pushed for something I like more. I was at a stage that only one more upgrade (source/streamer) would mean I was there. Or so I thought...

Not long after posting I came across a rather reasonably priced I22. Wasn't really looking for an amp as a streamer was my next planned upgrade. I was yet to hear Class D Primare, so I thought it would be rather nice to give it a go. For the last week I've been trying to decide which of the two amps will stay with me. There are reviews out there so I don't intend this in any other way as a comparison of the two.

Both units share similar characteristics. Both can create a very involving wide and deep soundstage and precise images. Both are musical yet detailed. Now this is where it gets tricky. I feel that I22 offers more in terms of sheer detail the soundstage is even better organised and the detail easier to pick out. It's probably a tad more rhytmic, also. On the other hand A30.1 timbre and overall tonality wins. The instruments sound more real. Somehow A30.1 transfers more emotion than the I22 particularly felt in vocals and solos. Being warmer and sweeter sounding make it also a better pairing for my speakers. I22 can sometimes feel hard in the treble. The bass authority of A30.1 is also felt where it just sound fuller. I feel like A30.1 is more suited to jazz/classical where I22 is overall a great performer. Now from a practical point of view I22 is a much newer unit and needs a mere 16W of electricity with A30.1 drawing as much as 600W!

I'm totally at a loss here. I love the insight I get from I22. It's more, for the lack of the better word for it, hifi. Yet the tonality isn't exactly to my taste and I turn down the treble on preamp by 1db to make it more to my taste. A30.1 though makes me feel like performers are in the room and the instruments sound like in real life. After listening to I22 now the A30.1 feels less organised and a tad slower. But I22 has not brought any tears to my eyes yet where it wasn't so uncommon with A30.1. My head tells me I22, but my heart screams A30.1. I even listed A30.1 on eBay and after a guy from Finland contacted me and amassed many watchers over night pulled the ad in fear I was going to regret it.

What have I done?! Anyone been where I am? I feel like there is no way back. I can't unhear the things I've heard. I want the best of both worlds. Is there such an amp? Please help.

This is precisely why I run two systems. Each beguiling. Each very different.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Class A, AB and Class D sound different imo, with AB sounding closer to A (depending on bias). For me, Class D sounds very clean, fast and neutral, if a bit analytical.....but leaves me a bit cold.

As long as you pick what you like, it doesn't matter a jot.

Agreed. The only class D Amp (Okay its a class A/D hybrid) that gets it almost totally right for me is a Devialet. The warmth and musicality of class A married to the muscle and neutrality of class D. I'd love to hear what you think when you get to hear one Cno.

 

[insider9]

Infiniteloop, I remember you saying that. The reasoning seems sound to me.

I must say that there's something about Unison Research that makes me want to have one of their amps. Might be the fact they're Italian.

 

[insider9]

Can a class D amp sound as rich as A or AB? Does it matter at all?

Class A, AB and Class D sound different imo, with AB sounding closer to A (depending on bias). For me, Class D sounds very clean, fast and neutral, if a bit analytical.....but leaves me a bit cold. 

As long as you pick what you like, it doesn't matter a jot.

Agreed. The only class D Amp (Okay its a class A/D hybrid) that gets it almost totally right for me is a Devialet. The warmth and musicality of class A married to the muscle and neutrality of class D. I'd love to hear what you think when you get to hear one Cno.

Would love one but won't stretch that far. What about a hybrid like Pathos? I know we're just throwing names around but gotta start somewhere. And quite a few names on a shortlist already.

 

[CnoEvil]

Infiniteloop, I remember you saying that. The reasoning seems sound to me.

I must say that there's something about Unison Research that makes me want to have one of their amps. Might be the fact they're Italian.

Excellent. I would also add Jadis to that, as well.