B&W 800d amps - Cyrus monos or what?...

[Mid-range spread]

Happy New Year all! Another year, another dilemma...

The situation is this. I bought a couple of years ago a Cyrus StreamXP and two Cyrus Mono X200 with a view of getting some Spendor's. However, soon after I found and bought a pair of B&W 800d's at a really good price (I couldn't resist the temptation). I guess you've already gathered the problem....

I liked the detailed sound (albeit a bit rich at the top end) but know they don't quite get deep enough for these speakers. I then bought a second-hand Bryston 4BSST thinking that'll do the trick. How wrong I was. They sound no where near as detailed and interestingly don't drive the bass as well as the x200s. I'm now running the Bryston on the HF and x200's on the LF, so now have a sonic imbalance and still lack the oomph it needs.

Dilemma then is what to do next?! Is it worth getting another pair of x200 or x300, or just sell the lot and start again? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

(For your info we have a large open plan living area, about 9m x 15m in a timber frame home).

Many thanks in anticipation.

 

[Anderson]

Have you thought about going the pro audio route? Say something like a Crown XLS 1500 which puts out something in the region of 200w 8ohms, 300w @ 4ohms & 500w @ 2ohms. I gather your in the states so you'd be looking at about $3-400 which isn't much you could surprise yourself.

http://www.crownaudio.com/xls-drivecore.html

 

[Electro]

This is an easy one *smile*

The electrocompaniet Nemo monoblocks, they were originally designed to drive B&W Nautilus speakers .

600 wpc - 8 ohms , 1200wpc - 4 ohms and stable into all loads down to 0.5 of an ohm and 150 amps of current delivery .

They will drive and control the 800d's with vast amounts to spare and bass will not be a problem , they make bryston 4B's sound small .

A review.

http://www.stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/300electro/

This is a picture of the inside of only one of them !

 

[Anderson]

I hope you're joking.

If its a power game, buy 2 of the crowns and run them bridged, this will give you double the power that the memo amps above would provide and with the money left over you could buy yourself a car.

 

[Vladimir]

I hope you're joking.

If its a power game, buy 2 of the crowns and run them bridged, this will give you double the power that the memo amps above would provide and with the money left over you could buy yourself a car.

And you can put a wind turbine so the Crown fans power it and run the generated power back to the Crown amps. Infinite energy.

 

[Electro]

I hope you're joking.

If its a power game, buy 2 of the crowns and run them bridged, this will give you double the power that the memo amps above would provide and with the money left over you could buy yourself a car.

No it is not just about power , as you say it is possible to get many more watts for far less money .

If you had ever hears a pair of the Nemo's driving a pair of full range speakers like the B&W the cost would be the last thing on your mind , you would probably be thinking , if I sell the car ------- *smile*

 

[Anderson]

You might just be right electro, very good!

 

[Anderson]

Electros and Harmans coming from the school of Mati Ottala are high voltage and high current slew rate designs that are suitable for fast response that musical signal requires.

Crown is a Harman brand but I doubt the priority for the XLS amp designer was such a thing. It is mainly power, stability and durability as priorities for any pro amp workhorse.

If you are a HT geek, a stack of Crowns is the best way to go. If you are a music lover and an audiophile who bothers how things are made and why, then a pair of Nemo's are certanly the path.

I'll give you build quality, they certainly look nice. I'm also sure the Nemos use 'audiophile grade' components in their construction. But there will be no functional and/or audible differences provided the amps are working to spec and designed to be transparent. Your edging dangerously close to audio foo there Vlad.

 

[Vladimir]

Electros and Harmans coming from the school of Matti Otala are high voltage and high current slew rate designs that are suitable for fast response that musical signal requires.

Crown is a Harman brand but I doubt the priority for the XLS amp designer was such a thing. It is mainly power, stability and durability as priorities for any pro amp workhorse.

If you are a HT geek, a stack of Crowns is the best way to go. If you are a music lover and an audiophile who bothers how things are made and why, then a pair of Nemo's are certanly the path.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The situation is this. I bought a couple of years ago a Cyrus StreamXP and two Cyrus Mono X200 with a view of getting some Spendor's. However, soon after I found and bought a pair of B&W 800d's at a really good price (I couldn't resist the temptation). I guess you've already gathered the problem....

I liked the detailed sound (albeit a bit rich at the top end) but know they don't quite get deep enough for these speakers. I then bought a second-hand Bryston 4BSST thinking that'll do the trick. How wrong I was. They sound no where near as detailed and interestingly don't drive the bass as well as the x200s. I'm now running the Bryston on the HF and x200's on the LF, so now have a sonic imbalance and still lack the oomph it needs.

Dilemma then is what to do next?! Is it worth getting another pair of x200 or x300, or just sell the lot and start again? Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated!

I would either look at replacing the 4Bsst with the X300s (although I'd audition first to make sure they give you the extra you're looking for), or take a look at Classe's amplifiers, as they have a proven track record with B&W speakers.

 

[Vladimir]

Electros and Harmans coming from the school of Mati Ottala are high voltage and high current slew rate designs that are suitable for fast response that musical signal requires.

Crown is a Harman brand but I doubt the priority for the XLS amp designer was such a thing. It is mainly power, stability and durability as priorities for any pro amp workhorse.

If you are a HT geek, a stack of Crowns is the best way to go. If you are a music lover and an audiophile who bothers how things are made and why, then a pair of Nemo's are certanly the path.

I'll give you build quality, they certainly look nice. I'm also sure the Nemos use 'audiophile grade' components in their construction. But there will be no functional and/or audible differences provided the amps are working to spec and designed to be transparent. Your edging dangerously close to audio foo there Vlad.

The differences in circuit design due to different application of both units may or may not give audble differences. That is not important to the audiophile.

If you are an HT guy you only care if things explode well while you enjoy your movies. An audiophile has stimuli not just by sound, but also by sight, brand loyalty, ideas etc. No bias = no endorphins, it's how it works, period. Music has nothing to do with it, it is purely gear fetish. You can get emotional response from music on any device, including ipod and stock earbuds. A teenager listening to One Direction is no less gushed with seratonin and oxytocins than an adult with Quad ESLs listening to Stravinsky on a $5000 Kuzma TT.

Let's address the elephant in the listening room. No audio foo = no fun. It has to have a sticker and a story how an electronics engineering genious from Finland made it amazing. Subjectivist do it, objectivists do it. You need the stickers, the story behind it, the ideology. It can be AVI pro actives that make you ticklish and joyful or it can be a pair of Linn Isobariks and a stack of Naim olives. Two different sides of the same coin. People with gear fetish, no different than boat or car afficionados, stamp collectors, thoroughbred horses nuts etc.

The OP has a pair of B&W 800Ds. He bought Daleks twins with diamond sparkle in their metalic eye. Too late to get all rational all of a sudden and buy pro amps. He already picked a side. Time to exterminate!

 

[drummerman]

I'd support the afromentioned Classe amplification. Proven in studios.

Whether this will give the OP the 'oomph' he so desires ... no idea. Perhaps the B&W are not voiced to give 'oomph' but very clear and delineated bass (with suitable amplification) which to some may sound dry and somewhat under nourished. Dunno.

There is always the possibility of a sub or two. Many studios do just that.

 

[CnoEvil]

Classe would be my recommendation as well.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'd support the afromentioned Classe amplification. Proven in studios.

Whether this will give the OP the 'oomph' he so desires ... no idea. Perhaps the B&W are not voiced to give 'oomph' but very clear and delineated bass (with suitable amplification) which to some may sound dry and somewhat under nourished. Dunno.

I can't say myself as I haven't heard the combination, but they seem to be used in conjunction with each other here there and everywhere (I know B&W distribute Classe, but if they didn't sound good together, you wouldn't see this combination so frequently).

 

[Vladimir]

Like a Ford typically coming out of a factory with Goodyear tires. If Ford supplies it with those tires, surely there is nothing better for that car. *wink*

 

[Frank Harvey]

Forever the pessimist.

 

[Anderson]

Electros and Harmans coming from the school of Mati Ottala are high voltage and high current slew rate designs that are suitable for fast response that musical signal requires.?

Crown is a Harman brand but I doubt the priority for the XLS amp designer was such a thing. It is mainly power, stability and durability as priorities for any pro amp workhorse.?

If you are a HT geek, a stack of Crowns is the best way to go. If you are a music lover and an audiophile who bothers how things are made and why, then a pair of Nemo's are certanly the path.

I'll give you build quality, they certainly look nice. I'm also sure the Nemos use 'audiophile grade' components in their construction. But there will be no functional and/or audible differences provided the amps are working to spec and designed to be transparent. Your edging dangerously close to audio foo there Vlad.

The differences in circuit design due to different application of both units may or may not give audble differences. That is not important to the audiophile.?

If you are an HT guy you only care if things explode well while you enjoy your movies. An audiophile has stimuli not just by sound, but also by sight, brand loyalty, ideas etc. No bias = no endorphins, it's how it works, period. Music has nothing to do with it, it is purely gear fetish. You can get emotional response from music on any device, including ipod and stock earbuds. A teenager listening to One Direction is no less gushed with seratonin and oxytocins than an adult with Quad ESLs listening to Stravinsky on a $5000 Kuzma TT.

Let's address the elephant in the listening room. No audio foo = no fun. It has to have a sticker and a story how an electronics engineering genious from Finland made it amazing. Subjectivist do it, objectivists do it. You need the stickers, the story behind it, the ideology. It can be AVI pro actives that make you ticklish and joyful or it can be a pair of Linn Isobariks and a stack of Naim olives. Two different sides of the same coin. People with gear fetish, no different than boat or car afficionados, stamp collectors, thoroughbred horses nuts etc.

The OP has a pair of B&W 800Ds. He bought Daleks twins with diamond sparkle in their metalic eye. Too late to get all rational all of a sudden and buy pro amps. He already picked a side. Time to exterminate!

Vlad. You know, I do not disagree with what you've said.

 

[steve_1979]

(For your info we have a large open plan living area, about 9m x 15m in a timber frame home).

I think that this may be the cause of your bass issue.

It's a big space to fill with bass to start with and being a timber frame building much of the bass will escape. There's a reason why Americans tend to use big powerful bassy speakers and huge subwoofers. They need to due to their big wooden houses.

Maybe your solution could be found in the form of a big American subwoofer?

 

[Frank Harvey]

I think that this may be the cause of your bass issue.

It's a big space to fill with bass to start with and being a timber frame building much of the bass will escape. There's a reason why Americans tend to use big powerful bassy speakers and huge subwoofers. They need to due to their big wooden houses.

Maybe your solution could be found in the form of a big American subwoofer

Speakers like these don't have problems in larger rooms, provided the right amplification is used. Our store is timbre framed (500 years old), and I know the issue. Our top floor is around 5m x 9m, and opens out into the roof space above, and also over the two rooms flanking that room, which are 5m x 3.5m (roughly). Bass presence from speakers like KEF Reference 207/2s, Blades, and ProAc K6s have plenty of bass presence, but it needs the right amplification to bring that bass out of them, and also to control it. Placement, of course, helps too.

Subwoofer/s can offer a relatively cheap solution, but it will then be down to quality as to how well they will compliment music - this approach usually isn't cheap either.

 

[Vladimir]

If I lived in a 9mx15m room with American timber frame construction, there is only one speaker that I would buy.

JBL Synthesis 1400 Array

 

[Anderson]

@Vlad

What's your feelings on the new JBL Studio 2 range. I like them, they're too large though, especially the 290 which I really like. I look at them and then look at more audiophile speakers at twice the cost and realise I'm being a snob.

 

[Vladimir]

@Vlad

What's your feelings on the new JBL Studio 2 range. I like them, they're too large though, especially the 290 which I really like. I look at them and then look at more audiophile speakers at twice the cost and realise I'm being a snob.

Still haven't seen them in the dealer shop here. The studio 2 looks nice but I doubt they can touch the LS80.

 

[Anderson]

@Vlad

What's your feelings on the new JBL Studio 2 range. I like them, they're too large though, especially the 290 which I really like. I look at them and then look at more audiophile speakers at twice the cost and realise I'm being a snob.

Still haven't seen them in the dealer shop here. The studio 2 looks nice but I doubt they can touch the LS80.

Do you think like me that perhaps your being swayed by looks? Rational me says 290 has got nice drivers, is a 3 way and made by one of the most experienced audio manufactures in the world. The other part of me wouldn't mind paying extra for better lookms with no better performance.

 

[Vladimir]

Do you think like me that perhaps your being swayed by looks? Rational me says 290 has got nice drivers, is a 3 way and made by one of the most experienced audio manufactures in the world. The other part of me wouldn't mind paying extra for better lookms with no better performance.

The greedy part in me says not enough audio foo in those sensible 290s to get my audiophool juices going. I start getting horny with their Synthesis range. I am being swayed by SPL that makes my heart skip beats and by heritage.

Are you shopping for floorstanders?

 

[lindsayt]

If I had your room and system Mid-range spread, I'd be looking to sell the lot and start again.

Well actually I'd be looking to try or buy different speakers and compare them to the 800d's and sell whichever I liked less. Maybe do that a few times till I arrived at my destination speakers. Then do the same with the amplification and any analogue source. The trick being to try on a sale or return basis, or buy at a price you can sell it on without losing money.

The 800d's are fine speakers, but it is possible to find speakers with more bite, more oomph, more attack, combined with being less amplifier fussy.

The big trouble with the Electrocompaniet Nemos is that they were fifteen thousand dollars new in 2008. There aren't many around 2nd hand, and even then you'd be looking at about 7 thousand dollars. That's a huge amount of money for amplification, especially when it will depreciate over the next few years.

Speakers are a highly personal thing, as it's not just the sound, it's the looks. If you live in the states, check out the big old classic high end speakers from Altec, Bozak, EV, JBL, Klipsch, plus some of the 1970's to 1980's Japanese JBL homage speakers like Pioneer Exclusives.

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hi-fi/exclusive-3401