AVI DM5 and DM10

[fr0g]

Some of my comments about the AVI speakers are measurable.

It's utter nonsense for you to disagree with them.

And are you seriously saying that it's utter nonsense to say that some people like their midrange to be amplified with solid state, whilst others prefer it to be done with valves? Or are you saying that the AVI speakers now come with the option of valve amplification for the midrange?

Why are you even commenting on this thread? It's clearly not aimed at you. The OP is interested in a certain type of speaker; he specifically asks about the Avi speakers. It's blindingly obvious he is not interested in having his living room filled with ancient ugly monstrosities.

I'm sure yours sound lovely, but I'd rather have a Denon mini system than live with them to be honest. Horses for courses of course, but this really isn't the thread for it.

Your criticism is also way off the mark and shows signs of desperation.

And yes, maybe some people want their midrange powered by valves. Some people prefer their houses to be lit with candles too, what is your point??

-

The ADM9 is an excellent speaker; I wouldn't have bought 2 pairs had it not been. They play loud without strain, are superbly detailed and as mentioned, in the later encarnations have pretty good bass for a standmount 6" woofer.

The sub is useful depending on music tastes.

 

[steve_1979]

As you can see from my forum signature I own a pair of AVI DM5's and an AVI subwoofer and I am very pleased with them both. The sound is exactly how I like it and if you Google 'AVI DM5 review' you should be able to fine my in depth review of these speakers.

One thing that hasn't yet been mentioned is that the DM10 go much louder and have a bit more bass than the DM5 so if you like to play at really high volume levels then the DM10's are the model to go for. In fact the DM10's are better all round and if you have the money then just go straight to the DM10 and forget about the DM5.

There's also a good chance that you won't need a subwoofer with the DM10's so my advice is to try without one first then add a sub later if necessary. Many people have had good results using subwoofers from other manufactures but AVI's own sub is generally considered the best match for them (they were specifically designed to compliment the ADM9 speakers) and it is a very good quality subwoofer.

 

[Theo]

One problem I see is the AVI sub is not currently available to buy. So if I get DM10s in June and find that I need a sub, there will most likely be a waiting list another 3 or 6 months for the sub.

 

[fr0g]

One problem I see is the AVI sub is not currently available to buy. So if I get DM10s in June and find that I need a sub, there will most likely be a waiting list another 3 or 6 months for the sub.

While the Avi is certainly quite possibly the best option, others are available that take little if anything away.

As mentioned I have 2 ADM9 systems, one with Avi sub, one with BK XXLS400. The BK sub loses very little to the Avi in most areas and is better in others. And is around half the price

If you wanted a sub to be going on with, the Gemini mk2 II at silly cheap money would be an excellent "stop-gap". They are also generally available on Ebay from BKs Ebay shop (brand new) at a crazy £214.

You may even find that it's more than enough and if not, you would not lose much once resold.

I don't for one second buy the Avi stance that other subs do not integrate. They do, very nicely thank you. I have had 3 subs with the ADMs and all work just fine. Yes, the Avi sub is probably the best when it comes to perfect integration and tightness, but it isn't something I noticed to be a problem with the other 2 subs either!

In fact I am surprised Avi never put their sub on the market as a sub for any speakers. There is no difference in the controls on the back that are typically found on other more general subs.

 

[lindsayt]

Fr0g, please tell me how my comments about the AVI range of active speakers is way off the mark.

Everything I said is 100% true. And, as I've already said, quite a few of my comments can be backed up with measurements. This means that with quite a few of my comments, there's no subjectivity about it. We can't both be right. Either I am right or you are right.

I'll start with the one that easiest to proove and one touched on by Steve.

If you want your music, including your bass replayed with any sort of fidelity - in terms of not filtering out bass drums and bass guitars then the ADM10's need some sort of sub-woofer help. This is because they have a steeply falling frequency response below 100 hz. Something I can provide evidence for, if anyone wishes. That is exactly what I would expect from such a small, ported, 2 way speaker.

Now, some people like their bass to be filtered out in this way. I don't. And it would seem the original poster doesn't either.

But please, let's at least be clear and accurate about this. ADM 5's, 9's and 10's all filter out the bass below 100hz.

I am not talking utter nonsense. I am not way off the mark and I am not being desperate. I am merely calling a spade a spade. Whilst Fr0g and Steve are calling a spade a JCB - when it clearly isn't a JCB. It's just a spade.

And the analogy about candles is ridiculous in a non sequitor way. I don't know anyone who prefers to have their homes lit by candles instead of electric bulbs (outside of religious communities in the States). I know plenty of hi-fi enthusiasts who prefer their midrange amplified by valves.

Steve, have you ever wondered what sort of psycho-acoustic effect speakers have when they filter out the bass below 100hz?

 

[fr0g]

Fr0g, please tell me how my comments about the AVI range of active speakers is way off the mark.

Everything I said is 100% true. And, as I've already said, quite a few of my comments can be backed up with measurements. This means that with quite a few of my comments, there's no subjectivity about it. We can't both be right. Either I am right or you are right.

I'll start with the one that easiest to proove and one touched on by Steve.

If you want your music, including your bass replayed with any sort of fidelity - in terms of not filtering out bass drums and bass guitars then the ADM10's need some sort of sub-woofer help. This is because they have a steeply falling frequency response below 100 hz. Something I can provide evidence for, if anyone wishes. That is exactly what I would expect from such a small, ported, 2 way speaker.

Now, some people like their bass to be filtered out in this way. I don't. And it would seem the original poster doesn't either.

But please, let's at least be clear and accurate about this. ADM 5's, 9's and 10's all filter out the bass below 100hz.

I am not talking utter nonsense. I am not way off the mark and I am not being desperate. I am merely calling a spade a spade. Whilst Fr0g and Steve are calling a spade a JCB - when it clearly isn't a JCB. It's just a spade.

And the analogy about candles is ridiculous in a non sequitor way. I don't know anyone who prefers to have their homes lit by candles instead of electric bulbs (outside of religious communities in the States). I know plenty of hi-fi enthusiasts who prefer their midrange amplified by valves.

Steve, have you ever wondered what sort of psycho-acoustic effect speakers have when they filter out the bass below 100hz?

 

[John Duncan]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cz2-ukrd2VQ

 

[Theo]

Hi fr0g and lindsayt,

Thank you very much for your feedback. I have read through every point and I understand where you are coming from. In a way it is my fault that I haven't described exactly what I want. With AVI probably the only option is to try at home and sell if it is not as expected.

The past 10 years or so I have been through several mid/top of the range setups from linn, b&w and pmc and now I want to try something a bit different hence why I'm looking at AVI. I dont expect the DM10s to be perfect and I am also quite certain I will need a sub as I am used to the scale and feeling of lower notes from my PB1is. Even solo piano tracks contain foot pedal thumps which can be heard and felt. But times change, with little feet running about I need to take a break from very expensive speakers and electronics that can loose value in a single accident and I can no longer provide the breathing space that floorstanders require. Let's see, I am hoping that DM10s will deliver.

 

[fr0g]

Hi fr0g and lindsayt,

Thank you very much for your feedback. I have read through every point and I understand where you are coming from. In a way it is my fault that I haven't described exactly what I want. With AVI probably the only option is to try at home and sell if it is not as expected.

Pretty sure Avi will not like me saying this, but as they are an online purchase, you will have up to 14 days to try them anyway. If after say a week, you decide they are not right, then you can send them back and only pay delivery costs. Still a few bob, but better than Ebay.



And yes, after PB1is you will want a sub. Although I think you may be surprised just how low they do actually go. The 9RS I have hit pretty deep for standmounts but without the boom that a badly controlled passive speaker gives, but of course the sub gives you the feeling too. As I say, if there is a problem with the Avi sub, a BK will be a very decent replacement, or "stop-gap" if you decide to go the full Avi at a later date.

And apologies for getting frisky with LindsayT, but it's patently obvious you do not want speakers the size of a small car.

 

[steve_1979]

Steve, have you ever wondered what sort of psycho-acoustic effect speakers have when they filter out the bass below 100hz?

Go on then I'll bite.

Enlighten us. What psycho-acoustic effect do speakers have when they filter out the bass below 100Hz?

(apologies to Theo for the thread drift but you seem to have have had your questions answered satisfactorily now and I have a feeling that lindsayt's reply might be a funny one )

 

[fr0g]

Pretty sure Avi will not like me saying this, but as they are an online purchase, you will have up to 14 days to try them anyway. If after say a week, you decide they are not right, then you can send them back and only pay delivery costs. Still a few bob, but better than Ebay.



And yes, after PB1is you will want a sub. Although I think you may be surprised just how low they do actually go. The 9RS I have hit pretty deep for standmounts but without the boom that a badly controlled passive speaker gives, but of course the sub gives you the feeling too. As I say, if there is a problem with the Avi sub, a BK will be a very decent replacement, or "stop-gap" if you decide to go the full Avi at a later date.

+1 on both points.

There's one guy one the AVI forum using ADM's with a cheap £70 Yamaha subwoofer and is very pleased with the result dispite also having owned an AVI sub in the past. Obviously the AVI one is better but that's not to say there aren't other cheaper options that will work almost as well.

To be quite frank I wouldn't use that as an endorsment. I have tried cheap cheap subs and they are awful. I imagine that Yamaha is no different.

 

[steve_1979]

Pretty sure Avi will not like me saying this, but as they are an online purchase, you will have up to 14 days to try them anyway. If after say a week, you decide they are not right, then you can send them back and only pay delivery costs. Still a few bob, but better than Ebay.



And yes, after PB1is you will want a sub. Although I think you may be surprised just how low they do actually go. The 9RS I have hit pretty deep for standmounts but without the boom that a badly controlled passive speaker gives, but of course the sub gives you the feeling too. As I say, if there is a problem with the Avi sub, a BK will be a very decent replacement, or "stop-gap" if you decide to go the full Avi at a later date.

+1 on both points.

There's one guy on the AVI forum using ADM's with a cheap £70 Yamaha subwoofer and is very pleased with the result dispite also having owned an AVI sub in the past. Obviously the AVI one is better but that's not to say there aren't other cheaper options that will work well too.

 

[steve_1979]

Pretty sure Avi will not like me saying this, but as they are an online purchase, you will have up to 14 days to try them anyway. If after say a week, you decide they are not right, then you can send them back and only pay delivery costs. Still a few bob, but better than Ebay.



And yes, after PB1is you will want a sub. Although I think you may be surprised just how low they do actually go. The 9RS I have hit pretty deep for standmounts but without the boom that a badly controlled passive speaker gives, but of course the sub gives you the feeling too. As I say, if there is a problem with the Avi sub, a BK will be a very decent replacement, or "stop-gap" if you decide to go the full Avi at a later date.

+1 on both points.

There's one guy one the AVI forum using ADM's with a cheap £70 Yamaha subwoofer and is very pleased with the result dispite also having owned an AVI sub in the past. Obviously the AVI one is better but that's not to say there aren't other cheaper options that will work almost as well.

To be quite frank I wouldn't use that as an endorsment. I have tried cheap cheap subs and they are awful. I imagine that Yamaha is no different.

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

 

[fr0g]

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

Exactly, although I think the OP's problem was that the Avi sub is currently unavailable apparently.

 

[bigboss]

SVS subwoofers are another brilliant option.

 

[steve_1979]

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

Exactly, although I think the OP's problem was that the Avi sub is currently unavailable apparently.

Apparently they're now making some more subs soon.

 

[fr0g]

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

Exactly, although I think the OP's problem was that the Avi sub is currently unavailable apparently.

Apparently they're now making some more subs soon.

You would hope so. Putting out the next big thing, the 10s and not having the sub available to go with it seem rather silly. Especially given Ash's insistence that no other sub sounds right with them (although in my experience I do think this is sales pitch rather than having any basis in truth.)

 

[Theo]

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

Exactly, although I think the OP's problem was that the Avi sub is currently unavailable apparently.

Apparently they're now making some more subs soon.

You would hope so. Putting out the next big thing, the 10s and not having the sub available to go with it seem rather silly. Especially given Ash's insistence that no other sub sounds right with them (although in my experience I do think this is sales pitch rather than having any basis in truth.)

steve_1979 and fr0g, thanks for the information and subwoofer recommendations.

I also agree with your view that AVI should have had the their sub in production or order books open even if there is a delay in delivering. I would hate to take delivery of the DM10 then wait and hope they do the subs. From AVIs' perspective however, and with the limited resources they have, I can appreciate the difficulties. I think many AVI DM10 owners are happy with its low end even without a sub and in the AVI forum the recommendation is to first try out DM10 without sub. However, my personal preference is to try both at once - not that I want to dismiss expert recommendation but I'd like to see the full potential from day 1.

The other unknown I have is about sharing one subwoofer between the two channels. I am a huge fan of the THTST percussion album which has a great amount of low end detail and you can clearly imagine where the different instruments are located. I am not sure what will happen when the low-end is shared between the two channels. I could maybe configure the sub to roll-off at just about hearing threshold say 30hz so the sub will be limited to the music content that is felt rather than heard. But would that mean that between 30 and 100Hz, there will be a dip in the response. I presume there will also be room nodes affecting this region but if we exclude that, how do we tune the sub for maximum performance. I guess it will be compromise at the end of the day.

 

[fr0g]

Personally I wouldn't touch cheap subwoofers for music either but it was just used as an example that the ADM's can work well with some other non AVI sub's too. But if you can afford the not insignificant £800 for the matching AVI one it's bloody good quality and if you already own ADM's it's a no brainer really.

If you can't afford the AVI one then a 10" or 12" BK one for around half the price would be a reasonable second choice.

Exactly, although I think the OP's problem was that the Avi sub is currently unavailable apparently.

Apparently they're now making some more subs soon.

You would hope so. Putting out the next big thing, the 10s and not having the sub available to go with it seem rather silly. Especially given Ash's insistence that no other sub sounds right with them (although in my experience I do think this is sales pitch rather than having any basis in truth.)

steve_1979 and fr0g, thanks for the information and subwoofer recommendations.

I also agree with your view that AVI should have had the their sub in production or order books open even if there is a delay in delivering. I would hate to take delivery of the DM10 then wait and hope they do the subs. From AVIs' perspective however, and with the limited resources they have, I can appreciate the difficulties. I think many AVI DM10 owners are happy with its low end even without a sub and in the AVI forum the recommendation is to first try out DM10 without sub. However, my personal preference is to try both at once - not that I want to dismiss expert recommendation but I'd like to see the full potential from day 1.

The other unknown I have is about sharing one subwoofer between the two channels. I am a huge fan of the THTST percussion album which has a great amount of low end detail and you can clearly imagine where the different instruments are located. I am not sure what will happen when the low-end is shared between the two channels. I could maybe configure the sub to roll-off at just about hearing threshold say 30hz so the sub will be limited to the music content that is felt rather than heard. But would that mean that between 30 and 100Hz, there will be a dip in the response. I presume there will also be room nodes affecting this region but if we exclude that, how do we tune the sub for maximum performance. I guess it will be compromise at the end of the day.

If you are crossing over at 50/60Hz then the wavelength of the sound is between 5 and 6 metres.

So long as your sub is within a few metres of the main speakers it will become invisible as these frequencies will be rendered non-directional (It's the higher, shorter wavelength frequencies that provide direction to your brain). From my seating position 3m from the main speakers all the sound appears to come from between the speakers (or wherever it is placed in the mix), even though I have the sub sitting to the left of the left speaker.

Tuning the sub I found easy. Plug in, stick near the left speaker, gain to 12 O'clock, crossover to 60Hz, away we go. (Actually I began at 11 O'clock and turned it up a notch later)

 

[steve_1979]

Ash said that they still have a few 10" drivers so there'll definitely be some more subs built at some time in the future. The new subs will be different to the old ones but there's no details what these changes are going to be yet but as they'll be using the same drivers they should be pretty similar to the old ones.

There's also an AVI sub on eBay at the moment if you wanted to take a punt.

With the DM10's the recommended crossover is 60Hz with the DM10 speakers giving full range output. With my smaller DM5 speakers I'm using a slightly higher 75Hz crossover and it's still impossible to tell where the bass is coming from. I keep getting down on my hands and knees to check that it's still working because the way it integrates so perfectly it sounds like all of the bass is in stereo and coming from the speakers.

 

[lindsayt]

Fr0g, no speaker system is best at everything. Every speaker system is a set of compromises. Every speaker system has sonic compromises.

And yet reading your posts in this thread, you are giving the impression that AVI speaker systems have no sonic flaws when the AVI sub is included.

I can hear the rather obvious sonic flaws that are inherent to the type of speakers that AVI make.

I can see no point in discussing this subject with you until you are willing to at least discuss the flaws in these speakers in an adult manner. Instead of replying to my posts with "Utter nonsense" and Star Trek facepalm photo style replies.

If you disagree with me fine. But you should at least be willing to say WHY or HOW you disagree with me.

 

[lindsayt]

Steve, psycho acoustic effects of speakers that filter out the sound below 100hz.

When those frequencies are filtered out, it leaves the mind free to focus on what's left. The psycho acoustic effect is increased midrange and treble clarity.

The other psycho acoustic effect is that rock and pop recordings will tend to sound uninvolving / flat / lacking in punch and drive.

 

[fr0g]

Fr0g, no speaker system is best at everything. Every speaker system is a set of compromises. Every speaker system has sonic compromises.

And yet reading your posts in this thread, you are giving the impression that AVI speaker systems have no sonic flaws when the AVI sub is included.

I can hear the rather obvious sonic flaws that are inherent to the type of speakers that AVI make.

I can see no point in discussing this subject with you until you are willing to at least discuss the flaws in these speakers in an adult manner. Instead of replying to my posts with "Utter nonsense" and Star Trek facepalm photo style replies.

If you disagree with me fine. But you should at least be willing to say WHY or HOW you disagree with me.

Ok.

Of course the Avi speakers are flawed. Just like any 6" driver standmount. They are less flawed than many and less flawed than any similar sized passive standmount. They have extremely high quality drivers and more power available than most.

I get frustrated because your points are irrelevant to the subject at hand. The OP is patently not interested in 15" woofers and a box the size of a fridge, however nice it may sound.

The drawbacks you mention are drawbacks to all of the popular speakers of this type.

High sensitivity speakers also have problems associated with them, poor bass without huge boxes, colouration, hiss, and many other things. To be honest it isn't something I have researched as I have zero interest in owning any. My perfect system would sound great and be invisible.

I am sure your system sounds fantastic, but for me and the vast majority of the population they are irrelevant.

 

[fr0g]

Steve, psycho acoustic effects of speakers that filter out the sound below 100hz.

When those frequencies are filtered out, it leaves the mind free to focus on what's left. The psycho acoustic effect is increased midrange and treble clarity.

The other psycho acoustic effect is that rock and pop recordings will tend to sound uninvolving / flat / lacking in punch and drive.

There is absolutely no shortage of deep, solid bass, the sort that makes your chest vibrate when used with the sub.

There may of course be other issues, but essentially the system becomes a 3 way system with a 10" woofer. One that unlike an actual pair of 3-ways with 10" woofers, is adjustable.

 

[iQ Speakers]

Ok so I've picked the 9.1RS's up and they are very good. Very well made and finished. Very acurate with a very focused soundstage. For the price they are very good. But my setup is better I'm running my IPL S2TLK's in at the moment, they obviously have more bass and sound more rounded but I'm biased!