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When should you upgrade your hi-fi? How to control ‘upgradeitis’
steve_1979
Well-known member
lpv said:
Not really it was just a comment on subwoofers.
He always puts "All the best Rick @ Musicraft" at the end of all his posts. It's just his standard signature.
steve_1979 said:It's a bit like wearing huge earphones.
The subwoofer isn't out of phase with the speakers. Anyway there's a adjustment knob on the back of the subwoofer for changing the phase if needed so that's never going to be an issue.
When you go to listen to an orchestra, does it sound like huge earphones?
When you go to a jazz club does it sound like huge earphones?
When you go to a rock gig, does it sound like huge earphones?
What frequency does your sub cross over to you main speakers?
What is the wavelength at that frequency?
What is the difference in distance to your ears from your sub-woofer driver to your mid-bass cone on your right speaker and to your left speaker?
You are living in cloud cuckoo land if you think your sub is not out phase with at least one of your main speakers.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Andrewjvt said:
AVI have used both ScanSpeak and Sinar Baja drivers in the past on their ADM9, ADM40 and Neutron speakers but as far as I'm aware all current AVI speakers have Sinar Baja drivers.
The DM10 uses a special custom designed Sinar Baja mid/bass driver that can reach upto 4kHz before going into cone breakup. They're specially made for the the DM10 speakers and AVI has to buy them in large batches because they're much more expensive than any of the other 6.5" drivers that Sinar Baja make. Sinar Baja thinks that they'd struggle to sell them to other speaker companies because they cost so much.
Both the DM5 and DM10 speakers use the same tweeters as each other. They're a tweaked version of an existing Sinar Baja tweeter which has been custom modified to suit AVI designer Martin Grinrod's own specification. Sinar Baja have found that this tweaked version is better than the original design and have since made it available to anyone as standard 'off the shelf' item. As BigH has already said, AVI found this new Sinar Baja tweeter to be better than the top of the range ScanSpeak tweeter dispite only costing a fraction of the price.
The DM5 5.25" mid/bass driver is a standard 'off the shelf' Sinar Baja unit. Martin Grindrod says that it's the best 5.25" driver he's ever come across and he's tested hundreds of them over the years.
I'm a regular on the AVI forum and this is how Ashley James has described them. I'm paraphrasing from memory so I apologise in advance for any mistakes. I'll sent Ashley a PM to double check that what I've said is correct.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Here's another quote from Ashley James. This was originally sent from Sinar Baja regarding their conclusions on the DM10s they bought.
"Hi Ashley,
Apologize for my long reply as we were quite busy this August.
We do more listening of DM10 this past weeks. Being honest with you, we never heard active speaker with characteristics like DM10.
I guess we were just not used to sound characteristics like DM10, that’s why we were surprised.
DM10 is very accurate, direct, details, and natural sound unlike traditional passive speakers.
But, over long time after listening to DM10, we conclude that we were more surprised that SBAcoustics woofer and tweeter can sound this good.
It is even better compared to our stock models.
Regards,
Ivan Santoso"
"Hi Ashley,
Apologize for my long reply as we were quite busy this August.
We do more listening of DM10 this past weeks. Being honest with you, we never heard active speaker with characteristics like DM10.
I guess we were just not used to sound characteristics like DM10, that’s why we were surprised.
DM10 is very accurate, direct, details, and natural sound unlike traditional passive speakers.
But, over long time after listening to DM10, we conclude that we were more surprised that SBAcoustics woofer and tweeter can sound this good.
It is even better compared to our stock models.
Regards,
Ivan Santoso"
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
steve_1979
Well-known member
MUSICRAFT
Well-known member
Go away with your insulting ad hominem.steve_1979 said:
This is not a faux technical discussion.
Where do you stand when listening to your system if your ears are equidistant to your sub and your two mid-bass drivers?
You'd have to be off to one side and at just the right height, in which case your channel balance would be off. And you'd be listening to your tweeters way off axis.
If you sit equidistant between your two main speakers, it's not physically possible for your subwoofer to be the same distance to your ears as both main speakers - with the positioning shown in your photo.
It's simple geometry.
The wavelength at 60 hz is 5.3 metres. At 80 hz 4.3 metres. You are going to be about a quarter to a third of a wavelength out of phase with at least one your speakers.
steve_1979
Well-known member
spiny norman said:
I wish!
Maybe if I'm lucky he'll leave his vinyl collection to me in his will.
steve_1979 said:
Steve, why do you even bother to answer his questions in the first place? You know he has no interest in AVI (the purpose of this thread) and he has made it clear that he doesn't value your opinion on HiFi.
Ajani, you can go away with your insulting ad hominem too.
Steve, do you sit so that the plane of the front panel of your subwoofer is at the same level as you or behind you as you face your main speakers?
Have you moved the position of any of your speakers since you took that photo?
Your measurements, are they to the nearest point on the speaker cabinets or to the centre of your mid-bass cones and the centre of your sub-woofer cone?
Sorry, I was forgetting, at 60 hz, most of the output from your AVI DM10's will be from the ports. So have you done your measurements to the centre of your ports and to the centre of your sub woofer cone?
Steve, do you sit so that the plane of the front panel of your subwoofer is at the same level as you or behind you as you face your main speakers?
Have you moved the position of any of your speakers since you took that photo?
Your measurements, are they to the nearest point on the speaker cabinets or to the centre of your mid-bass cones and the centre of your sub-woofer cone?
Sorry, I was forgetting, at 60 hz, most of the output from your AVI DM10's will be from the ports. So have you done your measurements to the centre of your ports and to the centre of your sub woofer cone?
steve_1979
Well-known member
Nowadays most two-way active speakers are described as being 'near field' but they usually sound better than larger speakers in the far field as well (provided they have enough power to go loud enough).
Near-field just means you can listen close up, get rid of room effects and hear lots of detail. Small speakers have a wide dispersion that big ones don't so apart from the deep bass they actually sound 'bigger' than big speakers do in a big space.
Even the tiny little DM5s sound huge when used in a largish room like mine and when combined with a good quality subwoofer they're better than any big floorstander (IMO, to my ears, etc etc).
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
It's a bit like wearing huge earphones.
It is a little bit odd TBH but everything's still well spaced out and individual instrument positions are still perfectly defined. It's all just closer together. The soundstage still feels big though, it extends well beyond the speakers and has plenty of depth too.
I do prefer a mid-field setup to a near-field one but as I spend most of my time listening while sitting at the computer it makes more sense to have them set up this way.
lindsayt said:
The subwoofer isn't out of phase with the speakers. Anyway there's a adjustment knob on the back of the subwoofer for changing the phase if needed so that's never going to be an issue.
IME most 2.1 systems are fine for movies but sound a bit rubbish with music so I can understand why many people are sceptical. With most 2.1 systems the subwoofer sounds boomy and/or directional but when using the DM10 with the matching AVI subwoofer the integration is totally seamless. There's no signs of directionality or booming of any kind just tight powerful deep bass all coming from the sound stage in front of you irrelevant of where the subwoofer is positioned in the room. The AVI subwoofer integration is so seamless that I regularly feel the need to put my hand on the subwoofer to feel for vibrations to check that it's still switched on.
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
DM10 output is full range. The subwoofer output is rolled off at 60Hz.
lindsayt said:
Both speakers and the subwoofer are all the same distance form my ears. Besides, as I mentioned in my previous post, the subwoofer phase is adjustable so it's not an issue.
lindsayt said:
We know you hate AVI and love big old horn speakers. That's great, it really is.
I hope you don't insist on having one of 'those' faux technical discussions. I'm sorry and this isn't intended to sound rude but I really can't be bothered to have another one.
Now what's that phrase that the yoof of today like to use?
steve_1979
Well-known member
lpv said:
I'm a self confessed AVI fanboi so I sometimes like to preempt my comments by admiting it. I'm a bit biased in that way but as they're the best that I've ever heard (to my ears and IMO etc etc) what else can I say?
If you like the ADM9 then you should like the DM10 too as they're quite similar. Imagine the ADM9 but with more bass, more detail and a better stereo image and you have the DM10. They're quite a big improvment over the old speakers whilst also sounding fairly similar at the same time if that makes sense.
The DM5 are better than the ADM9 too. The DM5 won't go as loud as the ADM9 but they're a bit clearer, more detailed and subjectively they still seem to have just as much bass even though they can't go as deep.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Andrewjvt said:
It's an irregular shaped 17.5' x 11' room with a 10' high ceiling. It's in an old victorian house with thick brick walls so there's plenty of isolation for when I want to turn it up loud.
I usually have them setup for near-field use at a computer desk but I've also tried them in a more conventional mid-field setup sitting about 10' away from the speakers on the other side of the room. They have no problem filling the space.
I don't have any photos of the current DM10 system but here's an old picture of my desk when I had the DM5 speakers setup (the black speaker and subwoofer is from an old AVI Neutron system). Since taking that picture I've also bought a new desk and chair which are lower than the one in the photo so the speakers are now at the correct height relative to the screen and my ears.
And those aren't cuddly toys BTW.
It's high tech acoustic sound treatment to stop early reflections bouncing off the desk and the top of the subwoofer. They help improve the stereo image a bit.
steve_1979
Well-known member
chebby
Well-known member
I can't believe you guys were posting all night! (Looking at the times on posts.)
Steve, you are either a shiftworker or incredibly dedicated to the product (and the manufacturer) to an unhealthy degree.
I wouldn't be prepared to stay up all night to defend some speakers (who would?) so I guess it must really be love.
(If Audio Note ever wanted me to stay up all night to defend their speakers they'd have to go #### themselves no matter how much I like them!)
Ash owes you big time.
Steve, you are either a shiftworker or incredibly dedicated to the product (and the manufacturer) to an unhealthy degree.
I wouldn't be prepared to stay up all night to defend some speakers (who would?) so I guess it must really be love.
(If Audio Note ever wanted me to stay up all night to defend their speakers they'd have to go #### themselves no matter how much I like them!)
Ash owes you big time.
steve_1979
Well-known member
lindsayt said:
I've just got a tape measure out and checked it (I must be going mad!). The distance between both speakers and my ears is exactly 111cm and the distance between the subwoofer and my ears is exactly 114cm.
So both the speakers and the subwoofer are the same distance away (to within 3cm).
lindsayt said:
See. This is turning into another one of 'those' faux technical discussions that I can't be bothered with.
AVI threads always start to go downhill at around page three so this is probably a good point for me to stop posting now. Have a nice Easter everyone.
steve_1979
Well-known member
Hi
If i had between 2000 - 3000 to spend on a horned speaker for my hegel, what would you recomend?
Cheers
If i had between 2000 - 3000 to spend on a horned speaker for my hegel, what would you recomend?
Cheers
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