AVI ADM woofer power amp rated @ 250W. BS or not?

[John Duncan]

I think what they would claim (IMHO) is that they apply well established engineering principles and measurement techniques to the design and testing of their products, as should all audio manufacturers. The essential point being that they don't pander to audiophoolishness.

I think publishing full (and honest) details of measurements of loudspeakers would be daft and pointless. Pointless because almost no potential purchaser would no what to make of them and daft because no one else publishes honest measurements.

So basically, we wouldn't understand them so what's the point?

BS or not?

250w RMS and 500w peak into 5.1 ohms, btw.

What a strange irony. The person who first put together, AVI, 250W bass amplifier and BS in a post is the person who produces the figures to confirm what is being doubted in the first place.

:rofl: You guys.

Um, wasn't it oldric_naubhoff who did the first and me who did the second?

 

[Etymotic]

With respect...although not a lot.....this is the most pointless thread I have ever read.

What does it really matter how many watts per channel the amps in the ADM's have?!

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

The bottom line is it dosnt matter one jot how many watts the ADM's have....let alone trying to get someone from the AVI company to proove it.

What does matter is how the engineering is implemented into the product and the resulting sound at the end of the process.

For what its worth my ADM's have the ability to go VERY LOUD without a hint of clipping or distortion. In fact I have not had them loud enough to find out if they do.......But rest assured I do play my music very loud on occasion and the speakers just seem to keep going louder and louder...way past friendly neighbour levels.....so I am more than happy.

20 watts?.....150 watts?... 2000 watts?..... does it really matter?

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

Some of you on here have far too much time on your hands it seems to me....to be able to construct so many long diatribes.

Your time would be far better spent listening to some more of the music you paport you love.....isnt that the reason you bought your system in the first place?........ to listen to the music?

I think what I am trying to say is ...GET A LIFE!

 

[John Duncan]

With respect...although not a lot.....this is the most pointless thread I have ever read.

What does it really matter how many watts per channel the amps in the ADM's have?!

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

The bottom line is it dosnt matter one jot how many watts the ADM's have....let alone trying to get someone from the AVI company to proove it.

What does matter is how the engineering is implemented into the product and the resulting sound at the end of the process.

For what its worth my ADM's have the ability to go VERY LOUD without a hint of clipping or distortion. In fact I have not had them loud enough to find out if they do.......But rest assured I do play my music very loud on occasion and the speakers just seem to keep going louder and louder...way past friendly neighbour levels.....so I am more than happy.

20 watts?.....150 watts?... 2000 watts?..... does it really matter?

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

Some of you on here have far too much time on your hands it seems to me....to be able to construct so many long diatribes.

Your time would be far better spent listening to some more of the music you paport you love.....isnt that the reason you bought your system in the first place?........ to listen to the music?

I think what I am trying to say is ...GET A LIFE!

See, THAT I understand.

Thanks, Etymotic.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

don't you think the data should be correct from the beginning rather than querying because one have doubts?

It's you who's assuming it isn't.

With the greatest respect, you're not acting like someone who genuinely wants to find out the answer.

you're in a way correct because I know the answer. there's no way in this world that a pair of transistors could produce 250W into 8 Ohms at reasonable THD level into sinewave for longer than a microsecond.

in this light the real question is; why is AVI beefing up specs on their products? marketing scam for clueless folk?

 

[altruistic.lemon]

With respect...although not a lot.....this is the most pointless thread I have ever read.

What does it really matter how many watts per channel the amps in the ADM's have?!

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

The bottom line is it dosnt matter one jot how many watts the ADM's have....let alone trying to get someone from the AVI company to proove it.

What does matter is how the engineering is implemented into the product and the resulting sound at the end of the process.

For what its worth my ADM's have the ability to go VERY LOUD without a hint of clipping or distortion. In fact I have not had them loud enough to find out if they do.......But rest assured I do play my music very loud on occasion and the speakers just seem to keep going louder and louder...way past friendly neighbour levels.....so I am more than happy.

20 watts?.....150 watts?... 2000 watts?..... does it really matter?

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

Some of you on here have far too much time on your hands it seems to me....to be able to construct so many long diatribes.

Your time would be far better spent listening to some more of the music you paport you love.....isnt that the reason you bought your system in the first place?........ to listen to the music?

I think what I am trying to say is ...GET A LIFE!

Yet another fanboy. People do check output when they buy amps, so it isn't unreasonable to ask the same of a manufacturer of active speakers. If other active speaker manufacturers are happy to supply the info, why can't this manufacturer? What is there to hide?

 

[Etymotic]

With respect...although not a lot.....this is the most pointless thread I have ever read.

What does it really matter how many watts per channel the amps in the ADM's have?!

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

The bottom line is it dosnt matter one jot how many watts the ADM's have....let alone trying to get someone from the AVI company to proove it.

What does matter is how the engineering is implemented into the product and the resulting sound at the end of the process.

For what its worth my ADM's have the ability to go VERY LOUD without a hint of clipping or distortion. In fact I have not had them loud enough to find out if they do.......But rest assured I do play my music very loud on occasion and the speakers just seem to keep going louder and louder...way past friendly neighbour levels.....so I am more than happy.

20 watts?.....150 watts?... 2000 watts?..... does it really matter?

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

Some of you on here have far too much time on your hands it seems to me....to be able to construct so many long diatribes.

Your time would be far better spent listening to some more of the music you paport you love.....isnt that the reason you bought your system in the first place?........ to listen to the music?

I think what I am trying to say is ...GET A LIFE!

Yet another fanboy. People do check output when they buy amps, so it isn't unreasonable to ask the same of a manufacturer of active speakers. If other active speaker manufacturers are happy to supply the info, why can't this manufacturer? What is there to hide?

Caustic Lemon...or whatever your name is....As I say GET A LIFE.

Try channeling all that vitriol and hot air into something more useful and of benefit to the environment.....Like powering a wind farm or something.......

 

[Phileas]

marketing scam for clueless folk?

Well I can see all the really clever types hang out here. :rofl:

 

[char_lotte]

Get a life......Haven't heard that since I was in school. Thanks for the nostalgia though.....

 

[WishTree]

you're in a way correct because I know the answer. there's no way in this world that a pair of transistors could produce 250W into 8 Ohms at reasonable THD level into sinewave for longer than a microsecond.

in this light the real question is; why is AVI beefing up specs on their products? marketing scam for clueless folk?

Most companies quote specs in a light to attract the people who are... unaware.

Some approach the buying process " I hear what I like, I don't read the specs and buy it because I loved the Sound", some others buying process involves trying to understand the specs of the equipment, use that information along with the SQ of the gear that they heard and then buy.

There might be a third category, where the people are indecisive, especially in a closed product where much can not be physically seen easily and here giving a 250W number will ofcourse, move the fence sitters or people not too confident about the product, to make that swing in favour of the product. This is not a new phenomenon.. those micro systems from Sony or other says 3200W in bold lettered stickers (which is also written as PMPO) and if I send my wife to the shop, she can only look at the physical appeal, these bold numbers and salesman's talk. She has an idea of how the sound should sound and if it is in the ball park, she would just buy based on the numbers and talk. (Actually, If I look back she did buy a Bose speaker system based on sales talk)

To give the example other way, if AVI rates them as 10W per woofer and 5W per tweeter, I am pretty sure the sales number would be a lot lesser than what it is now. What changed? Nothing much but if the buyer is in the first category, he would still buy as he might not really care about the specs. And I think there are very few such buyers.

Now, if you corner the buyers who fall into the other categories, asking questions like " Did you really check why did they rate it 250W ?", now you know what reaction you can get!

I would feel the same too, if some one tells me my amp though rated at 100W RMS does not seem to have components which make it qualify for being 100W RMS. May be I am too attached to my amplifier and I argue from intangible perpsective. Or even better, if I doubt, dig deep, feel deceived by the manufacturer, then I go ahead and sell the amplifier and get another one which is more suitable where I have discvered the deficiencies. I am glad that I have that option open.

 

[atticus]

With respect...although not a lot.....this is the most pointless thread I have ever read.

What does it really matter how many watts per channel the amps in the ADM's have?!

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

The bottom line is it dosnt matter one jot how many watts the ADM's have....let alone trying to get someone from the AVI company to proove it.

What does matter is how the engineering is implemented into the product and the resulting sound at the end of the process.

For what its worth my ADM's have the ability to go VERY LOUD without a hint of clipping or distortion. In fact I have not had them loud enough to find out if they do.......But rest assured I do play my music very loud on occasion and the speakers just seem to keep going louder and louder...way past friendly neighbour levels.....so I am more than happy.

20 watts?.....150 watts?... 2000 watts?..... does it really matter?

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

Some of you on here have far too much time on your hands it seems to me....to be able to construct so many long diatribes.

Your time would be far better spent listening to some more of the music you paport you love.....isnt that the reason you bought your system in the first place?........ to listen to the music?

I think what I am trying to say is ...GET A LIFE!

Yet another fanboy. People do check output when they buy amps, so it isn't unreasonable to ask the same of a manufacturer of active speakers. If other active speaker manufacturers are happy to supply the info, why can't this manufacturer? What is there to hide?

Caustic Lemon...or whatever your name is....As I say GET A LIFE.

Try channeling all that vitriol and hot air into something more useful and of benefit to the environment.....Like powering a wind farm or something.......

This is WAY better than watching television! Thanks to everyone who is contributing to these ongoing AVi threads; they're like root canal work when the dentist is a naked Scarlett Johansson - you don't wanna, but you can't stop yourself.

 

[CnoEvil]

I would feel the same too, if some one tells me my amp though rated at 100W RMS does not seem to have components which make it qualify for being 100W RMS.

It's just as well that mine is only rated at 35W then.

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

Speaking only for myself. What would be the point of providing you with the information? You almost certainly wouldn't believe what you were told and I have much better things to do with my time.

:wave:

so what's now? is this some sort of religion? arcane knowledge available to the initiated? cultism maybe?

all I ask if any of you AVI people know (I presume you hang out on HDD forum so you'd know more tech details than the not initiated) what is the voltage rail for the woofer amp and how much it will sag under 8 Ohm load when reaching clipping region (it will tell you much about the quality of the PS). that will easily tell you what's the rating into 8 Ohm load. rest assured, it will never be 250W from that amp.

 

[pauln]

They are what they are.....I was told many years ago in my passive speakers and integrated amp days that it was not the number of watts that counted but how they are implemented into the amp etc.. I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

Amps or systems boasting high wattage are the sort punters buy from Argos or Currys in the belief that lots of Watts sound better than a few.

I had a favourite Jazz track that on my then Naim system, at around 8.30 - 9.00 o'clock on the volume, would really snap in an exciting manner on certain snare and highhat hits - but always with marked 'fizz' in the sound. I put it down to tape saturation as it was an ADD recording.

Later, with my 200 watt RMS into 8 ohms ES Sony amp, v's the 60 RMS watts the NAP 180 could muster - "can swing a lot of amps, and very musical", went the Naim party line - the Sony just showed what relatively effortless power and headroom can do - not only was the timbral detail in this particular exciting passage on the disc much better rendered, but it was easily as exciting with sudden transient dynamics, but NO anoying FiZZ and distortion with it - clearly, what I thought was tape saturation was the Naim amp running out of headroom on a sudden dynamic peak, and distorting.

So there we have two completely opposite opinions on the effectiveness or otherwise of "Naim" watts.

Maybe some people really do prefer the sound of an amplifier clipping?

It has been suggested that hearing the full dynamic range of a piece of music can provoke our "fight or flight" response and that can make certain personality types uneasy and uncomfortable while others revel in the scale and drama of the music.

Is peoples varying tastes in gear linked in some way to being a "thrill seeker" personality type for instance?

 

[chebby]

I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

This reads to me as 'subjectivity'. (Judging by what it sounds like - to you - rather than judging on specifications and test bench results and the proven superiority of one kind of technology over another.)

I have read a lot of responses in the past - many from active loudspeaker owners - that have strenuously derided comments like "musical" when used to describe the sound of an amplifier. (Particularly in reference to Naim amplifiers.)

 

[oldric_naubhoff]

I would feel the same too, if some one tells me my amp though rated at 100W RMS does not seem to have components which make it qualify for being 100W RMS. May be I am too attached to my amplifier and I argue from intangible perpsective. Or even better, if I doubt, dig deep, feel deceived by the manufacturer, then I go ahead and sell the amplifier and get another one which is more suitable where I have discvered the deficiencies. I am glad that I have that option open.

take for instance separates' manufacturers. they would be giving spec for their products for public to asses. they would also be giving their gear to reviewers. some reviewers would even measure the gear to see if what they hear tallies with what they should hear. I've never seen a single component which spec sheet as submitted by the manufacturer would be off from independent measurements by a meaningful margin. respected manufacturers would not do such a faux pas because being revealed as not fully honest means death in the industry.

however, this rule somehow does not apply to some manufacturers of active speakers. it's not only with AVI when you can see exaggerated power outputs speced. and when you compare the amps that sit in there with separates' equivalents you ask yourself the question someone's pulling my leg here... those manufacturers can feel untouchable because they know no one will be taking apart their speakers to check if what they say is true. it's like with those plastic boxes hi-fi you were mentioning in your post. we're gonna put a sticker with a bigger number it's gonna attract more clientele.

 

[Alec]

With respect...although not a lot.....

I'm stealing this.

 

[steve_1979]

So there we have two completely opposite opinions on the effectiveness or otherwise of "Naim" watts.

Maybe some people really do prefer the sound of an amplifier clipping?

It has been suggested that hearing the full dynamic range of a piece of music can provoke our "fight or flight" response and that can make certain personality types uneasy and uncomfortable while others revel in the scale and drama of the music.

Is peoples varying tastes in gear linked in some way to being a "thrill seeker" personality type for instance?

You make an interesting point here pauln.

It does seem that there might be some people who actually prefer the sound of a clipping amplifier. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, although personally I don't like the sound of an amplifier when it's clipping.

I wonder if anyone has ever done any sort of reasearch into this?

 

[Etymotic]

I ended up buying an integrated Naim amp that I think had 25 watts per channel...but it sounded far more musical than other amps that boated 150 watts per channel or whatever I had auditioned.

At the end of the day we buy our equipment because we like how it sounds and we enjoy it because of its ability to take you on a musical journey.

This reads to me as 'subjectivity'. (Judging by what it sounds like - to you - rather than judging on specifications and test bench results and the proven superiority of one kind of technology over another.)

I have read a lot of responses in the past - many from active loudspeaker owners - that have strenuously derided comments like "musical" when used to describe the sound of an amplifier. (Particularly in reference to Naim amplifiers.)

Dosnt this prove my point? I am not buying my Hi Fi based on a spec sheet or a load of numbers and graphs. I am buying it because TO ME it has the sound that I am seeking. Now at the time when I was in the market for a system in the late 1990's I was unaware of the merits of active speakers but auditioned gear from Naim,Myriad, Rega,Linn and Meridian and to my ears the Naim gear had the sound I was looking for. It was not based on price or specification...just what I was hearing.

Fifteen years down the road and I was back in the Hi fi market again and having taken into account what was available I came to the conclusion that at this particular period in my life the active AVI speakers fitted the bill perfectly for my current situation. I did not even know how many watts the amps in the speakers had. What I did know however is that they had the sound I was looking for when I auditioned a pair at Five Ways Hi Fi in Birmingham. Given the price of the ADM's I quickly assertained that compared with what else was available they were indeed a real Hi Fi bargain......and the fact that they were house friendly, as everything was self contained, was a bonus.

So please dont bully people who make a choice based on their own needs and requirements any more than I will bully you for preferring what you do....You pays your money and make your choice as the saying goes.

Why so many on here cannot seem to grasp the concept that we are all able to make choices and what we choose is our business as your choices are yours and I hope you are all very happy with your gear be it Esoteric,run of the mill or true Hi end.

I do get the whole audiophile thing you know. As I say I was an equipment tinkerer for years and thoroughly enjoyed it...its just that at this particular stage of my life it is the active route that I have chosen. And I do not regret that for one moment.

 

[Ajani]

So there we have two completely opposite opinions on the effectiveness or otherwise of "Naim" watts.

Maybe some people really do prefer the sound of an amplifier clipping?

It has been suggested that hearing the full dynamic range of a piece of music can provoke our "fight or flight" response and that can make certain personality types uneasy and uncomfortable while others revel in the scale and drama of the music.

Is peoples varying tastes in gear linked in some way to being a "thrill seeker" personality type for instance?

You make an interesting point here pauln.

It does seem that there might be some people who actually prefer the sound of a clipping amplifier. Not that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, although personally I don't like the sound of an amplifier when it's clipping.

I wonder if anyone has ever done any sort of reasearch into this?

Not to be rude and argumentative but he actually doesn't have a point. He has a very large assumption. You can't conclude that the amp was clipping just because it is rated at 25 watts. We don't know how efficient the speakers he used were, nor the listening distance or volume levels.

 

[steve_1979]

This is a slighty off topic thought here because it has nothing to do with AVI amplifiers power rating. But what do you guy think of this:

When choosing components in a passive hifi setup you need to know if it'll be able to go loud enough to reproduce the dynamic peaks of the music without clipping or distorting. So from a consumers point of view it's important to know what an amplifiers power output is and how efficient your speakers are.

But with active speakers (any active speakers not just AVI) surely the only thing that matters to the consumer is how loud it'll go before it starts clipping and distorting. Whether this is achieved by using either low powered amplifiers driving efficient speakers or by having high powered amplifiers driving less efficient speakers is irrelevant to the end user. So long as it can reproduce the dynamic peaks of music at the desired volume level that's all that matters.

 

[steve_1979]

That's not rude or argumentative at all. ...and of course you're right, I have no idea if the Naim amplifiers in question were clipping or not.

What I said was more of a general observation that there are some people who like very low powered amplifiers. I was just wondering if there are people who actually prefer listening to music when it's being played through an amplifier that's clipping?

 

[Neuphonix]

Maybe someone should start a thread about AVI speakers playing 24bit files over really expensive interconnects whilst they are sitting on some black ravioli!!! :shhh:

 

[lindsayt]

My sources have enough power to plug them straight into my largest speakers and that would produce about the right volume for my normal listening.

What I'm not sure about is whether they'd be happy producing the current into the speakers which have a lot lower input impedance than my amplifiers.

I suppose I could use a transformer to convert the excess voltage into current.

It would be an interesting system, with the possibility to produce a very pure sound. No pre-amp. No volume control. No power amps. Just my sources into a transformer into my speakers.

 

[Ajani]

This is a slighty off topic thought here because it has nothing to do with AVI amplifiers power rating. But what do you guy think of this:

When choosing components in a passive hifi setup you need to know if it'll be able to go loud enough to reproduce the dynamic peaks of the music without clipping or distorting. So from a consumers point of view it's important to know what an amplifiers power output is and how efficient your speakers are.

But with active speakers (any active speakers not just AVI) surely the only thing that matters to the consumer is how loud it'll go before it starts clipping and distorting. Whether this is achieved by using either low powered amplifiers driving efficient speakers or by having high powered amplifiers driving less efficient speakers is irrelevant to the end user. So long as it can reproduce the dynamic peaks of music at the desired volume level that's all that matters.

Sounds reasonable to me. At the end of the day, for most persons it's not about whether an amp produces 500 watts into 8 ohms, but whether you can play music at your desired volume levels without clipping. If you do that with 105db sensitivity speakers and a 3 watt amp, then cool.

Now, back on topic:

I'm sure AVI speakers can achieve more than satisfying volume levels (based on all the user reviews). I suspect that even the OP has no issue with AVI speakers going loud. The issue is just that at least one AVI fan was throwing around the specs of ADM9s in another thread (and many of us have heard similar bragging about the power in the ADMs before), so he decided to challenge the specs.

Truth is that 250 watts is only impressive if it is for an 8 ohm load. I doubt the AVI drivers are 8 ohm. According to another poster in this thread they are about 5 ohms. Considering that a decent amp can double it's output into 4 ohms, then the ADM amps might be just over 125 watts @ 8 ohms. If that 125 is peak performance, then we might actually be talking about less than 100 watts @ 8 ohms. So suddenly the 250 watt specs aren't all that impressive.

What does all that mean in terms of how the ADMs sound? Not a darn thing. I'm sure they sound great. But I think many people are just tired of many of the claims about AVI (especially about technical superiority), hence we end up in relatively petty debates about specs.

 

[andyjm]

you're in a way correct because I know the answer. there's no way in this world that a pair of transistors could produce 250W into 8 Ohms at reasonable THD level into sinewave for longer than a microsecond.

May I ask what you base your calculations on?

250 watts into 8 ohms is a little over 5amps. Any self respecting power transistor will be able to carry that level of current with ease.