the record spot said:
Ummmm.... You do realise that you two are clearly in the wrong thread if you don't care about the specs of the ADMs, since that is the whole point of this thread?
Ummm Ajani, while I respect your POV, obviously, the vast amount of navel gazing on this manufacturer against say, any other on this forum, is beyond comment. Well, almost, and hence my comment.
the record spot said:
Fair enough. Though it's probably better to just state that you think the whole AVI debate has gone too far.
My one hope is that all these debates will result in everyone being tired of AVI discussions. Then maybe the anti-AVI will relax and the pro-AVI will not be so overzealous in recommending the brand. Both sides really need to calm down.
Ajani said:
Quite
I'm curious for instance, why there is not so much navel gazing and questioning of why Naim Audio as an example, will sell you an expensive amplfier, which then needs a further, more expensive add on power supply to supposedly optimise the sound/sonic performance of said amp, when it cannot be that difficult to build a proper power supply in the amp in the first place.
I'm also told by DIY's that the amount charged for say a Hi-Cap is absolutely outrageous for the actual quality and quantity of parts in it.
Why do we not have analytical navel gazing at examples of marketing hype and putting profits and repeat sales before quality and fully complete design such as this? - why all the focus on AVI other than that their marketing methods have upset a few people.
But then, as anybody who has been around in HiFi for a few decades will know, other companies, such as Linn with the LP12, and Naim with the Flat Earth approach etc, and the 'your'e nobody without a Naim' advertising approach have set many precedents as regards upsetting folks with their marketing claims, and dubious practices with electronics re the add on power supplies as noted above.
Some audiophiles need to recall the old adage "People in Glasshouses shouldn't throw stones"
JMac
JMacMan said:
I think the reason is simply because Naim is no longer the talk of the town. On WHF forums, AVI is. I've been an active member of several HiFi forums across the US and UK and AVI is only the hot topic here. On my US forums the hot topics are DIY open baffle speakers, Audio Note, Emotiva and even Magnepan. So I've seen those brands torn apart (especially Audio Note) as relates to value for money, etc... In fact I've seen them get far worse treatment than AVI gets here.
The obvious answer to the OP's question is to measure it.
As I have posted before, discussing power output without defining the level of distortion is meaningless. The usual comparison framework is power into an 8ohm load, 1KHz sinewave, 0.1% THD. Measuring THD without an analyzer is tricky, using a scope to spot the onset of clipping is far too blunt an instrument.
Does anyone know if the '£1million' WHF spent on the their test room included any test equipment? Or was it all on the decoration? If they do have an analyser (and someone who knows how to switch it on), then this could all be put to rest very quickly.
As I have posted before, discussing power output without defining the level of distortion is meaningless. The usual comparison framework is power into an 8ohm load, 1KHz sinewave, 0.1% THD. Measuring THD without an analyzer is tricky, using a scope to spot the onset of clipping is far too blunt an instrument.
Does anyone know if the '£1million' WHF spent on the their test room included any test equipment? Or was it all on the decoration? If they do have an analyser (and someone who knows how to switch it on), then this could all be put to rest very quickly.
andyjm said:
Andy, there's no need for that. The amps in the ADMs are not spec'd as for stand alone ones.
Olddick_noboff knows the answer to his question. The thread was started for the purpose of discrediting AVI and for him to parade his immense audio design knowledge.
Argghhhhhhh well sorry WHF but posts like this, and sadly there are too too many of them are seriously undermining my will to live.
Much as I dislike the word audiophile (I'm more of a musiophile), which for me has a certain negative connotation, there's a certain USA based forum aimed at PC front ends that is jam packed with the sort of advice, reasoned argument and opinion that has sadly disappeared from these forums. Instead, of late all we get is BS questions like this one clearly aimed at stirring up controversy. So Mr Knob well done Sir thank you and out.
Much as I dislike the word audiophile (I'm more of a musiophile), which for me has a certain negative connotation, there's a certain USA based forum aimed at PC front ends that is jam packed with the sort of advice, reasoned argument and opinion that has sadly disappeared from these forums. Instead, of late all we get is BS questions like this one clearly aimed at stirring up controversy. So Mr Knob well done Sir thank you and out.
SunnyCyprus said:
+1
All olddick-knoboff has proven is he dislikes AVI and knows how to copy and paste from Wikipedia.
I am sat here listening to Bach's Goldberg Variations on my much maligned AVI ADM9RS's not giving a flying f**k about speaker watts or measurements....Isnt that why we buy speakers...to listen to music?
It sounds sublime by the way......
I suggest you all retreat to your respective corners and just listen to some music because quite frankly this thread is becoming tiresome and is completely defeating the reason why we spent various amounts of money on our respective systems.
Does it really matter in the scheme of things if one system sounds a little bit better than another...or measures slightly better? No!
We are a long time dead and there is still so much music to discover and enjoy. Channel your energies into searching for new musical horizons and be happy with the equipment you have got!
It sounds sublime by the way......
I suggest you all retreat to your respective corners and just listen to some music because quite frankly this thread is becoming tiresome and is completely defeating the reason why we spent various amounts of money on our respective systems.
Does it really matter in the scheme of things if one system sounds a little bit better than another...or measures slightly better? No!
We are a long time dead and there is still so much music to discover and enjoy. Channel your energies into searching for new musical horizons and be happy with the equipment you have got!
Oldric - you're clearly a very clever chap, but you're not going to succeed in discrediting AVI when you're blatantly just mischief making. By the criteria that you have laid out I'm sure AVI's power amp will fall short. If we were talking about any integrated amp I'd 100% agree with you (and i'm pretty sure everyone else would too) about the baseline that needs to be applied to judge that amp's capabilities, however as I said before, (but you ignored), surely the fact that the amp in question will only ever be connected to one drive unit is a fundamental difference.
You would like to judge a bespoke amp designed only ever to drive one particular drive unit, but to do so in the most optimal fashion, by the standards of integrated amps that need to drive whatever the prospective owner might choose to connect to them. Well surprise surprise the amp fails your test.
What is plain for any reasonable person to see though, is that judging the mid/bass amp in a pair of active speakers by the criteria for integrated amps is irrelevant and pointless.
AVI have quoted the power output figures for the amp in the context of the drive unit it has been designed to drive - we assume into the nominal impedance of that drive unit (perhaps they could have made this clear, but the most reasonable assumption to make) and you pointed out that obviously the load varies according to frequency. You're right, the amp won't be producing the same power reproducing a 20hz signal versus a 20khz one - that much is obvious to anyone with a reasonable working knowledge of things audio and hifi, but I guess it may not be obvious to a novice - as far as I can tell though, no other manufaturer of active speakers is doing any better. Do any apply your irrelevant criteria for stating their power output figures? Do any provide a graph showing how power output varies accorging driver load accross the frequency range? I don't think so (and incidentally the case for doing this for actives is no different than the case or doing this for an integrated amp, but I notice that you weren't suggesting that was necessary, or that one particular integrated amp manufacturer is being dishonest.... )
Perhaps there is room for a standard for quoting the power ouput of amps in active speakers, but honestly, have AVI really got it any more wrong that any other actives manufacturer?
You would like to judge a bespoke amp designed only ever to drive one particular drive unit, but to do so in the most optimal fashion, by the standards of integrated amps that need to drive whatever the prospective owner might choose to connect to them. Well surprise surprise the amp fails your test.
What is plain for any reasonable person to see though, is that judging the mid/bass amp in a pair of active speakers by the criteria for integrated amps is irrelevant and pointless.
AVI have quoted the power output figures for the amp in the context of the drive unit it has been designed to drive - we assume into the nominal impedance of that drive unit (perhaps they could have made this clear, but the most reasonable assumption to make) and you pointed out that obviously the load varies according to frequency. You're right, the amp won't be producing the same power reproducing a 20hz signal versus a 20khz one - that much is obvious to anyone with a reasonable working knowledge of things audio and hifi, but I guess it may not be obvious to a novice - as far as I can tell though, no other manufaturer of active speakers is doing any better. Do any apply your irrelevant criteria for stating their power output figures? Do any provide a graph showing how power output varies accorging driver load accross the frequency range? I don't think so (and incidentally the case for doing this for actives is no different than the case or doing this for an integrated amp, but I notice that you weren't suggesting that was necessary, or that one particular integrated amp manufacturer is being dishonest.... )
Perhaps there is room for a standard for quoting the power ouput of amps in active speakers, but honestly, have AVI really got it any more wrong that any other actives manufacturer?
oldric_naubhoff said:WinterRacer said:
that below means something completely different:
In the case of a set ofvalues
, the RMS value is given by this formula:
The corresponding formula for a continuous function (or waveform)defined over the interval
is
and the RMS for a function over all time is
The RMS over all time of a periodic function is equal to the RMS of one period of the function. The RMS value of a continuous function or signal can be approximated by taking the RMS of a series of equally spaced samples.
Now I've definitely lost the will to live . Pass the hemlock .
Ajani said:
Please don't tell me how to post, what to say or how I should say it Ajani; I'll cut you that level of slack by default, so I would appreciate it by return.
My point wasn't to bash AVI. In fact, I've often recommended their products, even going back to the Lab Series amp (another 250 watter IIRC). My beef is not with the issue of AVI, or their products, but the kind the things that JMacman has covered off eloquently in his recent posts.
The products I think are excellent, but they are not the only ones out there of that ilk, or that will serve the kind of purposes they are intended to.
Ultimately though, does the ADM deliver 250wpc - yep, I'm quite happy to accept that. Beyond that though, I'm with JD on this one at this stage. No change there.
John Duncan
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Ajani said:
No. Since the manufacturer in question seems to think that I have (and I quote) 'rescinded' WHF's five star review by not liking them that much, I think it's important to point out when I'm NOT particularly disturbed by any claims they may care to make about their product.
JMacMan said:
That is a good question.
I can only answer from my perspective. If a Naim or Linn or any other brand of hi-fi equipment owner were to make an incorrect, or misleading, or selectively truthful or unbalanced post I would be just as inclined to reply to it as I am to when an AVI owner does the same thing.
The most recent incorrect statement from an AVI owner in this thread was WinterRacer's statement that the mid-bass amp from an ADM 9 would be able to play music just as loudly through my speakers as my 250 watt amplifier without clipping.
I just don't see as many incorrect or misleading or selectively truthful or unbalanced posts from owners of other brands of equipment on this forum as I do from AVI owners.
John Duncan
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Uhuh. The claim is easily found on the manufacturer's forum.
EDIT - I also find amusing his claim that Andrew Everard has done the same, given his description of their sound as 'quite remarkable' in his Gramophone review:
www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/avi-adm91-unusual-active-speakers-prove-a-viable-system-alternative
Never let the facts get in the way of a good persecution complex, though, eh?
EDIT - I also find amusing his claim that Andrew Everard has done the same, given his description of their sound as 'quite remarkable' in his Gramophone review:
www.gramophone.co.uk/editorial/avi-adm91-unusual-active-speakers-prove-a-viable-system-alternative
Never let the facts get in the way of a good persecution complex, though, eh?
WinterRacer said:
I don't like this rudeness from you and the two previous posters. You're all quite capable of putting your point without being offensive and it does no one any favours, least of all yourselves. I'm sure we're all capable of remaining civil, it's only hifi.
John Duncan said:
A few issues:
1) Why was the title of your response shortened to "BS"? Is that a reference to my post?
2) I wonder if anyone from AVI would have gotten your point from your initial response that you "don't actually care". I certainly didn't which is why I responded. It just seemed odd to say you didn't care about specs in a thread about specs.
3) Why should a manufacturer's paranoia matter? Just because you weren't as impressed with the ADMs as the rest of the WHF team, doesn't suddenly drop the star rating.
John Duncan
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Ajani said:
1) No, it was not directed at you. But it had to be shortened to *something*, since whatever imbecile built this website couldn't match up field sizes of original post and subsequent comments.
2) Where else would I state that I don't care about AVI amplifier specs than a thread about AVI amplifier specs? A thread about turntables?
3) Exactly...
I usually enjoy reading these threads, they can be like a good tennis match. I'm beginning to wonder about this one, however.
My ADM40's are the best speakers I've ever owned and I prefer their sound to the prototype Kef Blades I heard (that 'apparently' would never be made into production models and were nothing more than a concept). Yeah, right. Well, I found them harsh and painful to listen to, much like some of the unpleasantness and claptrap that gets spoken on this forum (as well as some others I could mention).
Every manufacturer of a product needs to sell their product. Marketing and hype are one way of piquing peoples' interest. There will obviously be competitors who are doing the same thing and hence you get what is known as 'competing products'. No manufacturer is exempt from this.
My ADM40's are the best speakers I've ever owned and I prefer their sound to the prototype Kef Blades I heard (that 'apparently' would never be made into production models and were nothing more than a concept). Yeah, right. Well, I found them harsh and painful to listen to, much like some of the unpleasantness and claptrap that gets spoken on this forum (as well as some others I could mention).
Every manufacturer of a product needs to sell their product. Marketing and hype are one way of piquing peoples' interest. There will obviously be competitors who are doing the same thing and hence you get what is known as 'competing products'. No manufacturer is exempt from this.
Can't think of many manufacturers who openly deride other magazines, yet are happy to advertise a 5 star review or award on their website, can't think of many manufacturers that openly deride people who just enjoy audio, or buy separates. I wouldn't be too hasty to compare some of the stuff that AJ/AVI comes out with against what other manufacturers do as being from the same gene pool. Vastly different.
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