Audiophile?

[FennerMachine]

The Devialet 200 may have 'vanishingly small distortion' in some areas, but the valve amp will almost certainly beat it in some measurements, for example crossover distortion.

Valve amplifiers typically measure better with transient intermodulation distortion. Human ears are more sensitive to TIM than to THD so a valve amplifier can sound better than a ss amp. You have to measure the correct parameters.

 

[drummerman]

Sony ES amps sound brilliant. Very well made and designed gear.

Aren't all Amps supposed to sound the same?

Nope. Valve amps and underpowered amps in general sound lacking.

So all the others sound the same?

If you think Valve Amps sound 'lacking' - you obviously haven't heard the ones I have. I'm not saying they're all great. Like all Amps, they all sound different, but the best ones, as with SS Amps, can be spectacularly good.

Absolutely NOTHING spectacular in 24Wpc mate. Sorry. I prefer power over bling. *unknw*

You obviously have never heard a good valve amplifier through reasonably efficient speakers ...

Your ears cannot be trusted. You think mains leads can change performance.

Reads like you haven't either (heard a good valve amplifier with reasonably efficient speakers)

Valve amplifiers are poor performers and guzzle power so I personally wouldn't consider one now. I did make one in the 60s, using 6L6, 6SN7 and ECC33 valves and Parmeko transformers, but I admit my speakers weren't great because they were home made too. Sonotone 9TAHC cartridge on a Garrard 2025TC, wow.

According to Mr Loop most people can't hear the difference. I'll take his word for it.

That's a different argument but valid I guess. Still, seeing how many shops and offices leave their lights on permanently during closing hours I do wonder if the odd audiophile with a valve or SS Class A amplifier (which is powered down when not in use) really contribute largely to the planets demise ...

Good valve amplifiers can also sound incredibly fast and dynamic to these untrusted ears . Especially compared watt by watt with alternative topologies. Not sure the exact reason for that but it may have something to do with slew rate/rise time. Perhaps it's just distortion but it can sound very life like and fun

Go and listen to a good set up. No need to trust my ears

 

[DocG]

The Devialet 200 may have 'vanishingly small distortion' in some areas, but the valve amp will almost certainly beat it in some measurements, for example crossover distortion.

Nope. In a Devialet the voltage is supplied by a class A amp, while class D amps deliver the current. So no cross-over distortion (by design).

 

[TrevC]

The Devialet 200 may have 'vanishingly small distortion' in some areas, but the valve amp will almost certainly beat it in some measurements, for example crossover distortion.

Valve amplifiers typically measure better with transient intermodulation distortion. Human ears are more sensitive to TIM than to THD so a valve amplifier can sound better than a ss amp. You have to measure the correct parameters.

Good luck with your measurements. Myself, I'll just listen to the music.

Surely you don't think the Devialet will have any measurable crossover distortion. Do you? Check out the specs. https://en.devialet.com/assets/Systems/complete-specs-EN.pdf

Crossover distortion in any budget push pull Class AB SS amp is very easily made inaudible, as you must know. Do you know how that is achieved?

 

[TrevC]

Sony ES amps sound brilliant. Very well made and designed gear.

Aren't all Amps supposed to sound the same?

Nope. Valve amps and underpowered amps in general sound lacking.

So all the others sound the same?

If you think Valve Amps sound 'lacking' - you obviously haven't heard the ones I have. I'm not saying they're all great. Like all Amps, they all sound different, but the best ones, as with SS Amps, can be spectacularly good.

Absolutely NOTHING spectacular in 24Wpc mate. Sorry. I prefer power over bling. *unknw*

You obviously have never heard a good valve amplifier through reasonably efficient speakers ...

Your ears cannot be trusted. You think mains leads can change performance.

Reads like you haven't either (heard a good valve amplifier with reasonably efficient speakers)

Valve amplifiers are poor performers and guzzle power so I personally wouldn't consider one now. I did make one in the 60s, using 6L6, 6SN7 and ECC33 valves and Parmeko transformers, but I admit my speakers weren't great because they were home made too. Sonotone 9TAHC cartridge on a Garrard 2025TC, wow.

According to Mr Loop most people can't hear the difference. I'll take his word for it.

That's a different argument but valid I guess. Still, seeing how many shops and offices leave their lights on permanently during closing hours I do wonder if the odd audiophile with a valve or SS Class A amplifier (which is powered down when not in use) really contribute largely to the planets demise ...

Good valve amplifiers can also sound incredibly fast and dynamic to these untrusted ears . Especially compared watt by watt with alternative topologies. Not sure the exact reason for that but it may have something to do with slew rate/rise time. Perhaps it's just distortion but it can sound very life like and fun

Go and listen to a good set up. No need to trust my ears

Give over, it's because you like the cozy glow of valves!

 

[drummerman]

Sony ES amps sound brilliant. Very well made and designed gear.

Aren't all Amps supposed to sound the same?

Nope. Valve amps and underpowered amps in general sound lacking.

So all the others sound the same?

If you think Valve Amps sound 'lacking' - you obviously haven't heard the ones I have. I'm not saying they're all great. Like all Amps, they all sound different, but the best ones, as with SS Amps, can be spectacularly good.

Absolutely NOTHING spectacular in 24Wpc mate. Sorry. I prefer power over bling. *unknw*

You obviously have never heard a good valve amplifier through reasonably efficient speakers ...

Your ears cannot be trusted. You think mains leads can change performance.

Reads like you haven't either (heard a good valve amplifier with reasonably efficient speakers)

Valve amplifiers are poor performers and guzzle power so I personally wouldn't consider one now. I did make one in the 60s, using 6L6, 6SN7 and ECC33 valves and Parmeko transformers, but I admit my speakers weren't great because they were home made too. Sonotone 9TAHC cartridge on a Garrard 2025TC, wow.

According to Mr Loop most people can't hear the difference. I'll take his word for it.

That's a different argument but valid I guess. Still, seeing how many shops and offices leave their lights on permanently during closing hours I do wonder if the odd audiophile with a valve or SS Class A amplifier (which is powered down when not in use) really contribute largely to the planets demise ...

Good valve amplifiers can also sound incredibly fast and dynamic to these untrusted ears . Especially compared watt by watt with alternative topologies. Not sure the exact reason for that but it may have something to do with slew rate/rise time. Perhaps it's just distortion but it can sound very life like and fun

Go and listen to a good set up. No need to trust my ears

Give over, it's because you like the cozy glow of valves!

You got me

 

[Infiniteloop]

As for fidelity, I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between the S8 and my Devialet 200 in a line matched blind test.

Quite possibly, or in fact the A500 that TrevC aludes to below. I'm pretty sure it would be just as good (in a line matched blind test). So yes, I still think valves are very low in VFM.

If I ever need an amp again, I'd probably simply go for a decent Yamaha AV receiver to be honest, something with all the bells and whistles. It too would be impossible to tell apart in a line matched blind test.

I'm sure the Behringer is a very fine Amp, particularly if you're on a budget. So it's somewhat surprising that it isn't seen as a 'reference standard' product (although that's what Behringer claim). If it's so good, why isn't everyone using one?

I had a Sony ES (can't remember which one) receiver some years ago. Did lots of things very well, including Dolby 5.1 surround sound (I bought it for my home cinema). Music through it was awful though.

Almost certainly mostly expectation bias.

Think about it, they make AV receivers, as you say for film. Some film soundtracks are amazing rich high dynamic range masterpieces. So do they sound awful? Nope.

Suddenly when it's only stereo music, it sounded "awful". Unlikely to be true to be honest.

So now you're calling me a liar?

Read what I said. You¨'re obviously intelligent. Did I at any point imply you were lying? No, I thought not.

How does "unlikely to be true" in response to my comment about music through that Amp being "awful" not constitute you calling me a liar?

 

[TrevC]

As for fidelity, I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between the S8 and my Devialet 200 in a line matched blind test.

Quite possibly, or in fact the A500 that TrevC aludes to below. I'm pretty sure it would be just as good (in a line matched blind test). So yes, I still think valves are very low in VFM.

If I ever need an amp again, I'd probably simply go for a decent Yamaha AV receiver to be honest, something with all the bells and whistles. It too would be impossible to tell apart in a line matched blind test.

I'm sure the Behringer is a very fine Amp, particularly if you're on a budget. So it's somewhat surprising that it isn't seen as a 'reference standard' product (although that's what Behringer claim). If it's so good, why isn't everyone using one?

I had a Sony ES (can't remember which one) receiver some years ago. Did lots of things very well, including Dolby 5.1 surround sound (I bought it for my home cinema). Music through it was awful though.

Almost certainly mostly expectation bias.

Think about it, they make AV receivers, as you say for film. Some film soundtracks are amazing rich high dynamic range masterpieces. So do they sound awful? Nope.

Suddenly when it's only stereo music, it sounded "awful". Unlikely to be true to be honest.

So now you're calling me a liar?

Read what I said. You¨'re obviously intelligent. Did I at any point imply you were lying? No, I thought not.

How does "unlikely to be true" in response to my comment about music through that Amp being "awful" not constitute you calling me a liar?

If you aren't omniscient you could have been mistaken.

 

[Infiniteloop]

Jaeger-Lecoultre and Patek Philippe create mechanical time pieces that sell for thousands and millions even though they are less accurate than a $5 Casio quartz.

Your analogy is interesting. Do the tiny, measurable, yet imperceptible differences in time affect in any way a persons perception of it?

Is this also not true of the tiny, measurable, yet imperceptible differences in distortion between Valve and SS Amps?

We actually appreciate mechanical time pieces more for being outdated technology difficult to make, rare and exclusive, closer to art than convenience. But no owner is feeding himself the delusion they are superior at keeping time. This is the difference with audiophiles who cherish valve amps, turntables and fancy cables. If you accepted that you enjoy your luxury kit not for its technical performance but for other appeals, we would not have this debate at all.

+1

Totally agree.

.........And like I said, I enjoy both my Devialet and Valve Amp as much as each other, for their similarities and differences, and ultimately for the high quality of sound that both deliver.

And that of course is totally understandable.

The valve amp obviously adds something that stirs emotions. But that isn't to say it's the highest fidelity. It may sound mesmerising, it may invoke winged angels that dance down your spine as you listen, but there is no doubt that for absolute fidelity, the valves would be better served with something more modern.

It's the same with my Avi ADM9RS speakers and my Dali Ikon 6 system. There is no doubt which speakers give more clarity and fidelity, but sometimes I prefer listening to my passive system. The treble for me is nicer and I put that down to some odd colouration. The bass is slower and more boomy, but that also adds a feeling of warmth... It is not as technically good, but in many ways it's preferable.

And I think this kind of sums it up. I think both sides are arguing different points but think they are arguing the same. Whether it be valves, vinyl, passive v active or whatever, all can be enjoyed, all can give the perception of extremely high quality playback, but if we are arguing for an ultimate fidelity system then all the things that detract from that can be taken out of the list...So vinyl, passive crossovers, valves would not be in that system. And if in the end, it sounds worse to you, then it does. Not everyone likes ultimate transparency. I can understand that.

If you want to be completely pure about it, you would have to factor in microphones, recording devices, mixing consoles, recording media and the ears of the sound mixer. At the end of it all is the loudspeaker which probably adds more colouration and distortion than everything else in the chain put together. To criticise one element which may add a little distortion more than the other components is not really being logical, when at the end of the chain the loudspeaker overshadows the whole.

As for transparency, - That's why I like the Devialet. - Is it as 'musical' as the S8? - depends on the music genre and recording. - To my ears, voices and acoustic material are more 'real' through the S8

 

[Infiniteloop]

As for fidelity, I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between the S8 and my Devialet 200 in a line matched blind test.

Quite possibly, or in fact the A500 that TrevC aludes to below. I'm pretty sure it would be just as good (in a line matched blind test). So yes, I still think valves are very low in VFM.

If I ever need an amp again, I'd probably simply go for a decent Yamaha AV receiver to be honest, something with all the bells and whistles. It too would be impossible to tell apart in a line matched blind test.

I'm sure the Behringer is a very fine Amp, particularly if you're on a budget. So it's somewhat surprising that it isn't seen as a 'reference standard' product (although that's what Behringer claim). If it's so good, why isn't everyone using one?

I had a Sony ES (can't remember which one) receiver some years ago. Did lots of things very well, including Dolby 5.1 surround sound (I bought it for my home cinema). Music through it was awful though.

Almost certainly mostly expectation bias.

Think about it, they make AV receivers, as you say for film. Some film soundtracks are amazing rich high dynamic range masterpieces. So do they sound awful? Nope.

Suddenly when it's only stereo music, it sounded "awful". Unlikely to be true to be honest.

So now you're calling me a liar?

Read what I said. You¨'re obviously intelligent. Did I at any point imply you were lying? No, I thought not.

How does "unlikely to be true" in response to my comment about music through that Amp being "awful" not constitute you calling me a liar?

If you aren't omniscient you could have been mistaken.

I wasn't mistaken. - Others thought so too.

 

[Laurens_B]

As for fidelity, I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between the S8 and my Devialet 200 in a line matched blind test.

Quite possibly, or in fact the A500 that TrevC aludes to below. I'm pretty sure it would be just as good (in a line matched blind test). So yes, I still think valves are very low in VFM.

If I ever need an amp again, I'd probably simply go for a decent Yamaha AV receiver to be honest, something with all the bells and whistles. It too would be impossible to tell apart in a line matched blind test.

I'm sure the Behringer is a very fine Amp, particularly if you're on a budget. So it's somewhat surprising that it isn't seen as a 'reference standard' product (although that's what Behringer claim). If it's so good, why isn't everyone using one?

I had a Sony ES (can't remember which one) receiver some years ago. Did lots of things very well, including Dolby 5.1 surround sound (I bought it for my home cinema). Music through it was awful though.

Almost certainly mostly expectation bias.

Think about it, they make AV receivers, as you say for film. Some film soundtracks are amazing rich high dynamic range masterpieces. So do they sound awful? Nope.

Suddenly when it's only stereo music, it sounded "awful". Unlikely to be true to be honest.

So now you're calling me a liar?

Read what I said. You¨'re obviously intelligent. Did I at any point imply you were lying? No, I thought not.

How does "unlikely to be true" in response to my comment about music through that Amp being "awful" not constitute you calling me a liar?

If you aren't omniscient you could have been mistaken.

I wasn't mistaken. - Others thought so too.

That doesn't make it fact.

 

[FennerMachine]

The Devialet 200 may have 'vanishingly small distortion' in some areas, but the valve amp will almost certainly beat it in some measurements, for example crossover distortion.

Valve amplifiers typically measure better with transient intermodulation distortion. Human ears are more sensitive to TIM than to THD so a valve amplifier can sound better than a ss amp. You have to measure the correct parameters.

Good luck with your measurements. Myself, I'll just listen to the music.

Surely you don't think the Devialet will have any measurable crossover distortion. Do you? Check out the specs. https://en.devialet.com/assets/Systems/complete-specs-EN.pdf

Crossover distortion in any budget push pull Class AB SS amp is very easily made inaudible, as you must know. Do you know how that is achieved?

Fantastic measurements! But at what power output? Full power, 1w, 0.05w? Any output power across the entire frequency range?

I'm not an EE so only know basics. I have read that only class a amplifiers have zero crossover distortion.

 

[TrevC]

The Devialet 200 may have 'vanishingly small distortion' in some areas, but the valve amp will almost certainly beat it in some measurements, for example crossover distortion.

Valve amplifiers typically measure better with transient intermodulation distortion. Human ears are more sensitive to TIM than to THD so a valve amplifier can sound better than a ss amp. You have to measure the correct parameters.

Good luck with your measurements. Myself, I'll just listen to the music.

Surely you don't think the Devialet will have any measurable crossover distortion. Do you? Check out the specs. https://en.devialet.com/assets/Systems/complete-specs-EN.pdf

Crossover distortion in any budget push pull Class AB SS amp is very easily made inaudible, as you must know. Do you know how that is achieved?

Fantastic measurements! But at what power output? Full power, 1w, 0.05w? Any output power across the entire frequency range?

I'm not an EE so only know basics. I have read that only class a amplifiers have zero crossover distortion.

Do you know what crossover distortion is?

 

[Vladimir]

No, I'll have to look him up!

Any interesting links for him?

That would be the engineer who realized why SS amps in the 70s sounded more distorted than valve amps, even though they had much lower measured THD. He introduced TIM distortion for the first time and since then it has standard been part of amplifier design. If an amplifier in 2015 has high TIMD that is audible, it doesn't fall in the "decently made" category.

Dr. Otala also pointed out that Japanese manufacturers used excessive amounts of global negative feedback in order to achieve impressive measured THD and DF, which increased IMD to audible levels. To oppose this trend, Harman Kardon and Electrocompaniet were the first to aim at low global negative feedback circuits (under 12dB) and achieve low TIMD.

As for crossover distortion, if it's audible, the amp is simply badly made. If you want to really get rid of it, you go Class A regardless if valve or SS.

IMO that article really oversimplified everything, which gives a skewed viewed.

MEMBERSHIPS: Dr. Otala is
[*]Member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Engineering Sciences, (Stockholm).[*]Member of the Finnish Academy of Technology, (Helsinki),[*]Member of the Kuratorium der Eduard Rhein Stiftung, (Hamburg)[*]Member of the Board of the Swiss High Technology Forum, (Basel)[*]Fellow of the Audio Engineering Society, (New York, NY),[*]Senior Member of the IEEE, (New York, NY)[*]Member of the European Industrial Research Managers Association, EIRMA, (Paris), and the Industrial Research Institute, (Washington, DC),[*]Member of the Institute of Electrical Engineers, IEE, (London),
the Institution of Electronics and Radio Engineers, IERE, (London),
the Society for Advancement of Materials and Process Engineering, SAMPE, (New York), and Society for Motion Picture and Television Engineers, SMPTE, (New York, NY).[*]Member of the Japan Industrial Robot Association, JIRA, (Tokyo), and
the Japan Techno-Economic Society, JATES, (Tokyo).[/list]

 

[FennerMachine]

As far as I understand it, crossover distortion is generated when one output device hands over to the other. One device handles half the waveform, the other takes over for the second half. The change over, when one device turns off and the other turns on, generates distortion, as the change over cannot happen perfectly.

 

[Vladimir]

BTW. I no longer see the EDIT POST button and can't edit my posts. Is this a new thing on the forum?

 

[fr0g]

As for fidelity, I doubt most people would be able to tell the difference between the S8 and my Devialet 200 in a line matched blind test.

Quite possibly, or in fact the A500 that TrevC aludes to below. I'm pretty sure it would be just as good (in a line matched blind test). So yes, I still think valves are very low in VFM.

If I ever need an amp again, I'd probably simply go for a decent Yamaha AV receiver to be honest, something with all the bells and whistles. It too would be impossible to tell apart in a line matched blind test.

I'm sure the Behringer is a very fine Amp, particularly if you're on a budget. So it's somewhat surprising that it isn't seen as a 'reference standard' product (although that's what Behringer claim). If it's so good, why isn't everyone using one?

I had a Sony ES (can't remember which one) receiver some years ago. Did lots of things very well, including Dolby 5.1 surround sound (I bought it for my home cinema). Music through it was awful though.

Almost certainly mostly expectation bias.

Think about it, they make AV receivers, as you say for film. Some film soundtracks are amazing rich high dynamic range masterpieces. So do they sound awful? Nope.

Suddenly when it's only stereo music, it sounded "awful". Unlikely to be true to be honest.

So now you're calling me a liar?

Read what I said. You¨'re obviously intelligent. Did I at any point imply you were lying? No, I thought not.

How does "unlikely to be true" in response to my comment about music through that Amp being "awful" not constitute you calling me a liar?

Like I said, re-read what I said. In fact my opening gambit was the mention of expectation bias. That's what I believe it is.

Which by definition means you are not lying. You believe you hear the difference because of other factors in your brain other than auditory.

I have no doubt "some" people lie about these things, but in all honesty, I doubt many do. But one thing that we can't really trust, is our ears, especially when other senses are feeding the brain information.

 

[Vladimir]

As far as I understand it, crossover distortion is generated when one output device hands over to the other. One device handles half the waveform, the other takes over for the second half. The change over, when one device turns off and the other turns on, generates distortion, as the change over cannot happen perfectly.

That is fully solved with Class A topology in SS amps. In Class A/B can be done to be inaudible with good circuit design, which in 2015 is a matter of implementing old circuit designs.

 

[TrevC]

As far as I understand it, crossover distortion is generated when one output device hands over to the other. One device handles half the waveform, the other takes over for the second half. The change over, when one device turns off and the other turns on, generates distortion, as the change over cannot happen perfectly.

Correct! The cure is to forward bias the output stage well into class A to make it inaudible. This means that both transistors are turned on up to a certain output level. The MF A1 was actually class AB biased up to around 8watts output, one model of Sugden had a switch so that the biasing could be adjusted from A to AB by the user. A handy summer winter switch.

 

[CnoEvil]

As far as I understand it, crossover distortion is generated when one output device hands over to the other. One device handles half the waveform, the other takes over for the second half. The change over, when one device turns off and the other turns on, generates distortion, as the change over cannot happen perfectly.

Correct! The cure is to forward bias the output stage well into class A to make it inaudible. This means that both transistors are turned on up to a certain output level. The MF A1 was actually class AB biased up to around 8watts output, one model of Sugden had a switch so that the biasing could be adjusted from A to AB by the user. A handy summer winter switch.

As I understand it though, once you turn the bias up high enough into Class A to prevent slipping into B, you then go back to having a high standing current, big power usage, as well as a fair amount of heat....though Class G does seem to be an interesting work around.

 

[FennerMachine]

What is the distortion that causes hardness/glare/edginess?

I have heard this on many ss amplifiers, including Quad and Roksan.

I have not experienced this with some high end pre/power or Marantz and Icon Audio.

 

[TrevC]

As far as I understand it, crossover distortion is generated when one output device hands over to the other. One device handles half the waveform, the other takes over for the second half. The change over, when one device turns off and the other turns on, generates distortion, as the change over cannot happen perfectly.

Correct! The cure is to forward bias the output stage well into class A to make it inaudible. This means that both transistors are turned on up to a certain output level. The MF A1 was actually class AB biased up to around 8watts output, one model of Sugden had a switch so that the biasing could be adjusted from A to AB by the user. A handy summer winter switch.

As I understand it though, once you turn the bias up high enough into Class A to prevent slipping into B, you then go back to having a high standing current, big power usage, as well as a fair amount of heat....though Class G does seem to be an interesting work around.

Crossover distortion is only audible at very low power outputs, so it isn't really a problem to forward bias the output stage enough to make it inaudible. Have you heard it? You used to get it on cheap radios. It produces a scratchy sound.

 

[FennerMachine]

My speakers are rated at 88bd/w/m.

So for 72db I need about 0.03w, correct? For 67db I need only 0.008w.

Could crossover distortion be audible at those power levels?

 

[Vladimir]

What is the distortion that causes hardness/glare/edginess?

I have heard this on many ss amplifiers, including Quad and Roksan.

I have not experienced this with some high end pre/power or Marantz and Icon Audio.

Was it persistent with all music genres, all sources, speakers and cables?

 

[FennerMachine]

From memory, yes it was. Various sources, speakers, cables. Various testing at different Hi-Fi shops. All types of music. One of the reasons I'm taking so long to choose an upgrade.

Cyrus had a lean, fatiguing sound, and ever since I've been trying to find a more natural sound. Very difficult to find something just right. Maybe my ears are more sensitive to a particular type of distortion?