ATC SCM40 upgrade from KEF Ref 3.2 - advice / thoughts

[gurkin1979]

Happy new years to all,

Time has come to upgrade (update) my beloved KEf reference 3.2s. I am wondering if anyone can shed any light on what to expect between these and the ATC SCM40s. I am obviously going to give them a listen before signing any cheques but am doing ground work before i spend a day lugging kit round the country.

They'll be paired with a Meridian 502 and 557. Sources are CD 508 24 bit and a Naim ND5 XS. Listening room is 3 by 4, so not too big, which is part of the reason why the KEFs need to go as they take up almost half the room when pulled away from the wall.

I'd love to know if a pair of speakers 12 years old would be blown away by an updated new ATC model or not to expect too much. The other option was to go for an equivalent pair of KEFs but taking into account the room size, they just don't make sense as they are almost even bigger. Also pairing with what i have is a big factor as i am aware that they can be tricky to marry off.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

 

[Macspur]

Hi,

I've not heard the KEFS, but from what I've read by other owners, it would seem to be quite a different loudspeaker from the SCM40, which I did own for about six months.

Yes, you will be able to place the ATC against a back wall, but personally, I found them to be

to dry and neutral for my taste, particularly when playing my favourite genre of music... contemporary Folk and Country.

However, with electronic music, they were very impressive.

Mac

www.macsmusic.blogbubble.net

 

[CnoEvil]

I would also look at Kef R500s.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Happy new years to all,

Time has come to upgrade (update) my beloved KEf reference 3.2s. I am wondering if anyone can shed any light on what to expect between these and the ATC SCM40s. I am obviously going to give them a listen before signing any cheques but am doing ground work before i spend a day lugging kit round the country.

They'll be paired with a Meridian 502 and 557. Sources are CD 508 24 bit and a Naim ND5 XS. Listening room is 3 by 4, so not too big, which is part of the reason why the KEFs need to go as they take up almost half the room when pulled away from the wall.

I'd love to know if a pair of speakers 12 years old would be blown away by an updated new ATC model or not to expect too much. The other option was to go for an equivalent pair of KEFs but taking into account the room size, they just don't make sense as they are almost even bigger. Also pairing with what i have is a big factor as i am aware that they can be tricky to marry off.

Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

Hi gurkin1979

Good old KEF Reference

Out of interest what finish are your 3.2 speakers in please?

Anyway, i used to own KEF Reference Model 3.2 speakers. I replaced Reference Model 3.2's with SCM40 MK1 monitors and even SCM40 MK1monitors reproduced music and movie soundtracks to a far higher level of performance (particularly noteworthy with their greater definition and quality of mid and low frequency reproduction of SCM40 MK1 monitors)

With the new curved SCM40 monitors now incorporating ATC's long awaited SH25-76 HF unit and with other improvemets made over their predecessors the gap in overall performance is even bigger.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[gramps23]

I'm a big ATC fan, so my position on this might be a little bit biased.. Personally, I don't think that the KEF's come close to the ATC's, and the SCM40's would be a great upgrade. I haven't heard the 3.2s, only the 2.2's, so can't make a direct comparison, but when I heard the 2.2's, the bass was loose and they simply don't have the definition, clarity and ability to sing in the mid range that the ATC's do.

In a room the size of yours, as noted above, you have to take speaker placement and design quite seriously, with the effects each will have on the low frequencies and how intrusive the boxes will be in your space. For those reasons, the ATC's would be ideal, and I would consider any design that's rear ported as unsuitable.

Another point in favour of the ATC's is the waveguides used on the mid and treble drive units. They will aid their compatibility with a relatively small space, as they are more directional than conventional units, so lessen problems associated with room reflections, and give you more precise imaging and soundstage.

Warm regards, Gramps.

 

[Frank Harvey]

...but when I heard the 2.2's, the bass was loose and they simply don't have the definition, clarity...

Classic case of insufficient amplification.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I haven't heard the 3.2s, only the 2.2's, so can't make a direct comparison, but when I heard the 2.2's, the bass was loose and they simply don't have the definition, clarity and ability to sing in the mid range that the ATC's do.

Hi gramps23

I also found this to be case with Reference Model 3.2's (driven by big and powerful amplification from Krell, Classe, Gryphon, Mark Levinson) in relation to SCM40 MK1 monitors.

ATC studio Soft Dome monitoring

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[gramps23]

I haven't heard the 3.2s, only the 2.2's, so can't make a direct comparison, but when I heard the 2.2's, the bass was loose and they simply don't have the definition, clarity and ability to sing in the mid range that the ATC's do.

Hi gramps23

I also found this to be case with Reference Model 3.2's (driven by big and powerful amplification from Krell, Classe, Gryphon, Mark Levinson) in relation to SCM40 MK1 monitors.

ATC studio Soft Dome monitoring

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thanks Rick, thought it might be me for a minute, but I did listen to them with some very meaty MF monoblocks, which should have had more than enough clout.

I think the issue has much to do with the coupled cavity loading, which inherently suffers from group delay distortion.

In my experience, you can't beat a good sealed box for accurate bass. They do often sacrifice a little in extension, but roll-off very smoothly and are generally very nimble, ATC's typifying the best of these qualities (not that their ported boxes have many failings!).

You're right about the ATC soft domes too - positively heavenly. Would love to hear the new HF drivers.

Warm regards,

Gramps.

 

[Frank Harvey]

The Reference Three and Four (Mark II's) are still impressive sounding speakers. Driven properly, they're capable of very tight, deep bass, and amazing dynamics (which they have always been well known for anyway).

I'm not going sit here and tell you which will or won't sound better, but I would demo carefully. Some speakers are good in some areas, and others are better in others, and it's usually a case of finding something that suits your music/system/room. There are a lot of top quality speakers out there in this price bracket, and its a case of trying them for yourself.

But to answer your question, because the SCM40 is a smaller (and leaner sounding) speaker, you may well find more detail on offer, and a tighter sound, which will be the case for many reasons.

 

[CnoEvil]

A speaker can be great in theory, and look great on paper......but you still have to like the sound of it, so do a decent demo with a wide variety of music.

ATC could be the ideal solution, or you may miss the presentation of the Kefs.

I have some of the new Reference range, which are more controlled, cleaner, tighter and more detailed than your older model.

The reason I suggested the R500s, is the R Series are warmer and sweeter than the current Reference range, have a lot of bass for their size, are much cheaper, as well as less fussy about amplification.

We all have our favorite brands, and this will be reflected in the recommendations we give......do the demos (preferably at home) and trust what you like.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I have some of the new Reference range, which are more controlled, cleaner, tighter and more detailed than your older model.

Hi CnE

Are your 205/2's being driven properly though?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[CnoEvil]

I have some of the new Reference range, which are more controlled, cleaner, tighter and more detailed than your older model.

Hi CnE

Are your 205/2's being driven properly though?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

They were very carefully driven from Belfast in a while van.

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi CnE

I thought so

Anyway an excellent article on some technical points regarding loudspeaker design and development here http://atcforums.co.uk/pdf/ATC%20CORP%20BROCHURE.pdf

All the best

Rick @ musicraft

 

[MUSICRAFT]

I haven't heard the 3.2s, only the 2.2's, so can't make a direct comparison, but when I heard the 2.2's, the bass was loose and they simply don't have the definition, clarity and ability to sing in the mid range that the ATC's do.

Hi gramps23

I also found this to be case with Reference Model 3.2's (driven by big and powerful amplification from Krell, Classe, Gryphon, Mark Levinson) in relation to SCM40 MK1 monitors.

ATC studio Soft Dome monitoring

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

Thanks Rick, thought it might be me for a minute, but I did listen to them with some very meaty MF monoblocks, which should have had more than enough clout.

I think the issue has much to do with the coupled cavity loading, which inherently suffers from group delay distortion.

In my experience, you can't beat a good sealed box for accurate bass. They do often sacrifice a little in extension, but roll-off very smoothly and are generally very nimble, ATC's typifying the best of these qualities (not that their ported boxes have many failings!).

You're right about the ATC soft domes too - positively heavenly. Would love to hear the new HF drivers.

Warm regards,

Gramps.

Hi Gramps

Yes, ATC's original and super Soft Dome mid range are truly great drive units. The SH26 -76 HF unit is on par with the original Soft Dome. With the SH26-76 just think of performance of the original Soft Dome but on a smaller scale. Given the stunning peformance capability of the original Soft Dome I feel this some achievement by ATC. Hence why it took ATC many years to develop the SH25-76.

The new Super SH25-76 and SH34-76 HF units will have performance levels which are even better and on par with their super Soft Dome.

Btw, the performance of the new curved SCM40 monitors is sublime.

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[gurkin1979]

Hi all,

First up apologies for not repying soner to all your AMAZING feedback. I've obviously been away...moving into the new house!

@Musicraft - The KEFs are resewood finish, purchased new when i got them. I've moved about 7 times in the last 4 years so i'm not going to lie, but sadly they've taken a bit of battering. That said they have dealt with this perfectly and are built like tanks. I have a 2 year old daughter too, who is like a mosquito to blue lamp as far as the drivers are concerned, so they have had to be given updates pretty regularly sadly.

I've hopefully been given green light to take my kit up to ATC to have a listen which i suppose is ultimately the best way of getting an idea of they are capable of, although i don't suppose the rooms have anything in common except for a sofa and the system i'll be hauling up there - although their's being built for optimum listening pleasure.

I'm keen to know whether the 10 years ofdifference is really recognisable in comparison to the financial investment. ie does a pair of £3k speakers from 10 years ago still cut it with those of the same price now or marginally. I am keen to experience the new mid's mentioned in the thread.

From everyone's feedback i think the deal is done, subject to the listening room. I listen to pretty much everything, pending mood and hope the ATCs will bring a lot of life to the electronic music i listen to. I've always been completely satisfied by the KEFs especially as i listen to lot of music towards the higher end of the db readings. Now having a smaller room, i dont need this much volume and hope these will give more where the leves aren't required.

Anyway any further info is much appreciated. I will be sure to give my feedback once i've been up to ATC and if anyone's interested offer my notes.

Lastly i would love to know if anyone could shed any light on the difference between these and the smaller stand mounts which are the other option. Im not convinced as they stil take up the same floor space, but would be interested to know if there's a huge difference for a room this size.

Thanks again, n

 

[CnoEvil]

We look forward to hearing how you get on. My only advice, is to trust your gut.

Cno

 

[Frank Harvey]

I'm keen to know whether the 10 years ofdifference is really recognisable in comparison to the financial investment. ie does a pair of £3k speakers from 10 years ago still cut it with those of the same price now or marginally. I am keen to experience the new mid's mentioned in the thread.

A good speaker is a good speaker. They may lack in a few areas compared to more seen speakers, but they have some advantages with being made during a time when things were cheaper to make. Modern speakers have modern materials on their side.

From everyone's feedback i think the deal is done, subject to the listening room. I listen to pretty much everything, pending mood and hope the ATCs will bring a lot of life to the electronic music i listen to. I've always been completely satisfied by the KEFs especially as i listen to lot of music towards the higher end of the db readings. Now having a smaller room, i dont need this much volume and hope these will give more where the leves aren't required.

Anyway any further info is much appreciated. I will be sure to give my feedback once i've been up to ATC and if anyone's interested offer my notes.

You may well get away with the new SCM40. They seem to be much more listenable than the older SCM40, and as long as your amplifier is up to it, you should get good results, even in a smaller room. Having said that, the SCM40 won't have the bass depth of your 3.2s, nor will my recommendation below. There are a lot of variables at play here.

Lastly i would love to know if anyone could shed any light on the difference between these and the smaller stand mounts which are the other option. Im not convinced as they stil take up the same floor space, but would be interested to know if there's a huge difference for a room this size.

The main alternative to try would be the KEF Reference 201/2. You will find these more informative compared to the 3.2, but as good as their bass is, will be lacking in depth.

 

[Anonymous]

David/Rick tennis match. Deuce!

 

[lewisprinceAA]

Hey, I recently went round the ATC factory and I can tell you that it is quite extrodinary how much care and attention goes into making their speakers. Its all made in-house, inclduing the tweeters now. Anyway I wrote a blog post about my trip. You might enjoy it.

http://adairacoustic.tumblr.com/post/72883027214/what-makes-atc-loudspeakers-so-special

 

[MUSICRAFT]

Hi all,

First up apologies for not repying soner to all your AMAZING feedback. I've obviously been away...moving into the new house!

@Musicraft - The KEFs are resewood finish

I've hopefully been given green light to take my kit up to ATC

I'm keen to know whether the 10 years of difference is really recognisable in comparison to the financial investment. ie does a pair of £3k speakers from 10 years ago still cut it with those of the same price now or marginally. I am keen to experience the new mid's mentioned in the thread.

From everyone's feedback i think the deal is done, subject to the listening room. I listen to pretty much everything, pending mood and hope the ATCs will bring a lot of life to the electronic music i listen to. I've always been completely satisfied by the KEFs especially as i listen to lot of music towards the higher end of the db readings. Now having a smaller room, i dont need this much volume and hope these will give more where the leves aren't required.

Anyway any further info is much appreciated. I will be sure to give my feedback once i've been up to ATC and if anyone's interested offer my notes.

Lastly i would love to know if anyone could shed any light on the difference between these and the smaller stand mounts which are the other option. Im not convinced as they stil take up the same floor space, but would be interested to know if there's a huge difference for a room this size.

Thanks again, n

Hi gurkin1979

Thanks for your reply.

My 3.2 speakers were in Rosetta Burr finish.

I am sure you'll have a great time at ATC particularly when you get see at first hand the time and effort they put into building their massive and technologically advanced state of the art hand bulit drive units.

As good as 3.2's are however (even going back to 2006) as i said earlier even the performance of SCM40 MK1 monitors outshines 3.2's let alone the performance of the new curved SCM40 monitors which are in another league still. Curved SCM40's use ATC's original studio Soft Dome and the bigger domestic and professional monitors (SCM50, SCM100, etc.) use ATC's studio super Soft Dome mid range drive units. However there is a new SH25-76 HFunit for the curved Series and Super SH-25-76 and SH34-76 (the latter two will appear the bigger domestic and professional monitors).

I think you should find ATC monitors with their low distortion, power and musical accuracy will readily distinguish themselves regardless of the genre of music listen to. Studio Control Monitor.

As for additional information you might be interested to know that we recently did a demo of curved SCM40 monitors against a current pair of speakers from a reference range which are at almost twice the price of curved SCM40 monitors. I showed our client ATC's drive units. Already impressed with what he'd seen, he was subsequently also equally impressed with the better quality of performance of curved SCM40 monitors. Curved SCM40's bought and in the process he also saved himself a bundle of money.

Btw, with regards to the smaller stand mounts are you specifically referring to curved SCM19 monitors please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

 

[gurkin1979]

Hi gurkin1979

Thanks for your reply.

My 3.2 speakers were in Rosetta Burr finish.

I am sure you'll have a great time at ATC particularly when you get see at first hand the time and effort they put into building their massive and technologically advanced state of the art hand bulit drive units.

As good as 3.2's are however (even going back to 2006) as i said earlier even the performance of SCM40 MK1 monitors outshines 3.2's let alone the performance of the new curved SCM40 monitors which are in another league still. Curved SCM40's use ATC's original studio Soft Dome and the bigger domestic and professional monitors (SCM50, SCM100, etc.) use ATC's studio super Soft Dome mid range drive units. However there is a new SH25-76 HFunit for the curved Series and Super SH-25-76 and SH34-76 (the latter two will appear the bigger domestic and professional monitors).

I think you should find ATC monitors with their low distortion, power and musical accuracy will readily distinguish themselves regardless of the genre of music listen to. Studio Control Monitor.

As for additional information you might be interested to know that we recently did a demo of curved SCM40 monitors against a current pair of speakers from a reference range which are at almost twice the price of curved SCM40 monitors. I showed our client ATC's drive units. Already impressed with what he'd seen, he was subsequently also equally impressed with the better quality of performance of curved SCM40 monitors. Curved SCM40's bought and in the process he also saved himself a bundle of money.

Btw, with regards to the smaller stand mounts are you specifically referring to curved SCM19 monitors please?

All the best

Rick @ Musicraft

[/quote]

hi Rick,

yes the SCM19s. I'm thinking once i've forked out for the stands i'm still going to be near the 40s price though....it's my missus pushing for the smaller ones so i am leaving this avenue open so it looks like i am at least making an effort to reduce size. I am unsure they will get to levels that i sometime push to.

Very much looking forward to the trip to ATC especialy after all the comments. It sounds like they've got a really top notch set up, with a very dedicated team. Will certainyl keep everyone in the loop with my feedback.

Thansk,

n

 

[ellisdj]

Not read the whole thread but I have found Meridian works well with Monitor Audio - might want to demo some included with the ATC and maybe PMC - they seem to be very highly regarded. I have had a bad demo of the .22's and to me the MA GX was much richer and sweeter sounding.

But I say bad demo as the PMC use crap bits of metal between the binding posts - plug into the tweeter that bit sounded decent the rest horrible. The opposite was true if I plugged into the bass driver so if you demo take the links out and replace with cable or proper links. Would like to hear them again.