Are HiFi products luxury items?

[CnoEvil]

I would argue that none of those things are essential so must be considered to be luxuries. One could argue that we in the Western World live a life of constant and unbridled luxury because so many non-essential things have become common-place. How could I manage without my freshly ground coffee in the morning?

One only has to get on a plane for a mere 7 hours and fly to, for instance, Qatar to see how luxurious our lives are when compared to the lives of the Bengali workers who are being paid £3 a day to build the stadiums for the 2022 football world cup and there is obviously a lot worse to see in other places.

Should the definition of luxury change from place to place in an arbitrary fashion or should it be fixed so as to apply equally the world over? Or do we need another word?

Your point is valid, and shows exactly why this is such a subjective debate.

I do believe that the definition of luxury changes from place to place......maybe if something becomes commonplace, it could be argued that it is no longer a luxury.

 

[Ajani]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

 

[chebby]

I do believe that the definition of luxury changes from place to place......maybe if something becomes commonplace, it could be argued that it is no longer a luxury.

How commonplace are your 'modest' £1000 - £1600 hi-fi systems? (Amongst all households and not just those containing a hi-fi enthusiast with sufficient disposable income.)

 

[CnoEvil]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

In your opinion, what do you have to send on a system that produces music, for it to be labelled as a luxury?

 

[MakkaPakka]

All forms of entertainment are a luxury. Food, water and shelter are the only things that aren't. Some luxuries are justified based on your means - or what your wife lets you have.

 

[BigH]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

Not sure its a bad word, but anything that is in vast excess to what you need I find a bit gross and it does make feel a bit sick when spend vaste amounts on goods when theres plenty of people starving or dying in the world that could be helped with that money. Even if I was a millionaire I would not fly fly first class that to me is a waste of money.

Actually I don't like too much luxury its makes you soft and dependent on it and you don't appreciate after a while anyway. I would not stay in 5 star Hotels either.

 

[BigH]

All forms of entertainment are a luxury. Food, water and shelter are the only things that aren't. Some luxuries are justified based on your means - or what your wife lets you have.

I think there are a few more things than that like medicine, clothes and heating.

 

[Ajani]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

In your opinion, what do you have to send on a system that produces music, for it to be labelled as a luxury?

1 cent. I love music and would hate to imagine my life without it, but I still see it as a luxury.

IMO, the joy I've received from my system outweighs what I've spent on it, but it's till a luxury. I could survive without it.

Heck my TV, laptop and cellphone are all capable of playing music... And they too are luxuries...

I don't see luxury as being something shameful.

 

[CnoEvil]

1 cent. I love music and would hate to imagine my life without it, but I still see it as a luxury.

In which case you see cost as having nothing to do with luxury, which I'm not sure I agree with.

 

[andrew_cawood]

[/quote]

Should the definition of luxury change from place to place in an arbitrary fashion or should it be fixed so as to apply equally the world over? Or do we need another word?

[/quote]

I was going to leave this alone, but this is nonsense. Why does luxury have to have a fixed definition the world over? It's not a sacred word.

You accepted earlier that the perception of what is essential had changed, so why can't luxury be dependent on circumstance?

Take the word rich for example - is that fixed? A rich person in one country is not necessarily the same as one in another - or should there be a fixed value that applies to everyone, everywhere to define who is rich? It's just a word that helps people describe a concept in their world - wherever that might be. Language is just a tool for communication not some sacred, immovable entity.

 

[pauln]

1 cent. I love music and would hate to imagine my life without it, but I still see it as a luxury.

In which case you see cost as having nothing to do with luxury, which I'm not sure I agree with.

Well, again this comes down to whether or not you agree with the dictionary's definition of "luxury" as "something desirable but not essential" or whether you consider that the true meaning of the word as we use it in the Western World in the year 2013 has changed.

As for cost, the portable headphone amp/dac combo I've got my eye on costs less than one months central heating oil for my house. I consider it to be a luxury because I don't need it despite the cost being minimal in the scheme of things. A 50p bar of chocolate is a luxury because you don't need it.

 

[Ajani]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

Not sure its a bad word, but anything that is in vast excess to what you need I find a bit gross and it does make feel a bit sick when spend vaste amounts on goods when theres plenty of people starving or dying in the world that could be helped with that money. Even if I was a millionaire I would not fly fly first class that to me is a waste of money.

Actually I don't like too much luxury its makes you soft and dependent on it and you don't appreciate after a while anyway. I would not stay in 5 star Hotels either.

Fair enough. The problem is determining when the spending becomes excessive.

You regard flying first class as excessive. But would you take a vacation? Someone who is really struggling might regard your vacation (even assuming an economy flight and 3 star hotel) as excess.

I think the danger with labelling things excess is that we tend to point fingers at the guy who spends (and often earns) more than us. While labelling our own excesses as justifiable and necessities.

To take it back to HiFi - We'll too often condemn the person with "more money than brains" who buys a $100K Naim Statement amp, but claim that our $3K setup is justifiable. We should try telling that to the homeless guy on the roadside and see if he thinks $3K for HiFi is justifiable.

 

[BigH]

When did Luxury become a BAD word???

Scrolling through the responses and the need to justify music, and by extenstion HiFi, as somehow being essential to daily survival, leads me to wonder why so many people don't want their hobby labeled as Luxury.

I thought a certain amount of luxury is what many (if not most) persons strive towards achieving.

Not sure its a bad word, but anything that is in vast excess to what you need I find a bit gross and it does make feel a bit sick when spend vaste amounts on goods when theres plenty of people starving or dying in the world that could be helped with that money. Even if I was a millionaire I would not fly fly first class that to me is a waste of money.

Actually I don't like too much luxury its makes you soft and dependent on it and you don't appreciate after a while anyway. I would not stay in 5 star Hotels either.

Fair enough. The problem is determining when the spending becomes excessive.

You regard flying first class as excessive. But would you take a vacation? Someone who is really struggling might regard your vacation (even assuming an economy flight and 3 star hotel) as excess.

I think the danger with labelling things excess is that we tend to point fingers at the guy who spends (and often earns) more than us. While labelling our own excesses as justifiable and necessities.

To take it back to HiFi - We'll too often condemn the person with "more money than brains" who buys a $100K Naim Statement amp, but claim that our $3K setup is justifiable. We should try telling that to the homeless guy on the roadside and see if he thinks $3K for HiFi is justifiable.

Yes I do take the odd holiday have not been away for over 2 years but will be going again this year. I travel economy and stay in budget guesthouses usually about $7 a night, is this a luxury yes but its probably cheaper than a holiday in the UK, costs about $30 a day plus about £500 return flight, try doing that in UK for 3 weeks.

 

[CnoEvil]

I do believe that the definition of luxury changes from place to place......maybe if something becomes commonplace, it could be argued that it is no longer a luxury.

How commonplace are your 'modest' £1000 - £1600 hi-fi systems? (Amongst all households and not just those containing a hi-fi enthusiast with sufficient disposable income.)

I have no idea.....it would be an interesting survey.......Would it include every Apple product that is used for music, for example?

I proposed "commonplace" as one possible criteria to determine whether something is a luxury.

If you see all hifi systems as a luxury, then it doesn't matter how little you spend on them.....but if you don't, then, £1k is imo modest (ie, Source/Amp/Speakers/Stands/Racks/Cables).

 

[pauln]

Should the definition of luxury change from place to place in an arbitrary fashion or should it be fixed so as to apply equally the world over? Or do we need another word?

I was going to leave this alone, but this is nonsense. Why does luxury have to have a fixed definition the world over? It's not a sacred word.

You accepted earlier that the perception of what is essential had changed, so why can't luxury be dependent on circumstance?

Take the word rich for example - is that fixed? A rich person in one country is not necessarily the same as one in another - or should there be a fixed value that applies to everyone, everywhere to define who is rich? It's just a word that helps people describe a concept in their world - wherever that might be. Language is just a tool for communication not some sacred, immovable entity.

What I am trying to say is that the general perception of what is essential may have changed but what actually is essential hasn't. The way "luxury" is defined in the dictionary makes it an absolute word rather than a relative word such as "rich". If we start changing the meaning of words, surely they can no longer be used as tools for communication because people have different ideas about what those words mean - as we do now. That's why there are dictionaries which set down an accepted meaning for each and every word.

If you think that luxury means something else nowadays and in this country, take it up with the dictionary publishers, not me.

 

[marou]

I don't personally regard my hifi as a luxury that a third world person would not necessarily covet - top of their list of luxuries might be freedom from fear: of poverty, ill health, violence. They might envy a retiree like me (the Spanish have a word for it: jubilado) the luxury of time. An expensive hifi repays its outlay in jobs created world wide.

 

[CnoEvil]

Well, again this comes down to whether or not you agree with the dictionary's definition of "luxury" as "something desirable but not essential" or whether you consider that the true meaning of the word as we use it in the Western World in the year 2013 has changed.

There is more than one definition (from the Oxford Dictionary):

- a state of great comfort or elegance, especially when involving great expense

- a pleasure obtained only rarely

 

[CnoEvil]

If we start changing the meaning of words, surely they can no longer be used as tools for communication because people have different ideas about what those words mean - as we do now. That's why there are dictionaries which set down an accepted meaning for each and every word.

Words are constantly changing and evolving......the one that immediately springs to mind is "gay"....but there are many more.

I apologize if I'm coming across as argumentative, as I really don't mean to..... it's just that I am enjoying the debate, and trying to justify my position (whether right or wrong).

 

[Ajani]

I don't personally regard my hifi as a luxury that a third world person would not necessarily covet - top of their list of luxuries might be freedom from fear: of poverty, ill health, violence. They might envy a retiree like me (the Spanish have a word for it: jubilado) the luxury of time.

You might be suprised at what we covet here in the third world. Always seem strange that labels like 1st and 3rd world have stuck around. I'd have thought such labels would have become politically incorrect by now.

An expensive hifi repays its outlay in jobs created world wide.

That assumes that those jobs receive even semi-decent compensation. Even assuming a factory in China or elsewhere, odds are that the workers get paid peanuts and the vast majority of the profit from the expensive HiFi sale goes to someone who is already very well off.

 

[pauln]

If we start changing the meaning of words, surely they can no longer be used as tools for communication because people have different ideas about what those words mean - as we do now. That's why there are dictionaries which set down an accepted meaning for each and every word.

Words are constantly changing and evolving......the one that immediately springs to mind is "gay"....but there are many more.

I apologize if I'm coming across as argumentative, as I really don't mean to..... it's just that I am enjoying the debate, and trying to justify my position (whether right or wrong).

OK, so your premise is that (up to what value?) hifi is not a luxury - it certainly is not an essential (for survival at least) so there must be some undefined area in between the two? What do we call that?

 

[matt49]

If we start changing the meaning of words, surely they can no longer be used as tools for communication because people have different ideas about what those words mean - as we do now. That's why there are dictionaries which set down an accepted meaning for each and every word.

Words are constantly changing and evolving......the one that immediately springs to mind is "gay"....but there are many more.

I apologize if I'm coming across as argumentative, as I really don't mean to..... it's just that I am enjoying the debate, and trying to justify my position (whether right or wrong).

OK, so your premise is that (up to what value?) hifi is not a luxury - it certainly is not an essential (for survival at least) so there must be some undefined area in between the two? What do we call that?

There's no reason why there should be a word for that category in everyday speech. But economists call things in that band 'normal' or 'inferior' products (with no negative connotation).

:cheers:

Matt

 

[CnoEvil]

OK, so your premise is that (up to what value?) hifi is not a luxury - it certainly is not an essential (for survival at least) so there must be some undefined area in between the two? What do we call that?

Earlier on in the thread, I proposed £1k-£1.6k (all in with stands, rack and cables), as a modest "non-luxury system".....but I don't claim a monopoly on the answer here.

What this debate has shown, is that there isn't one simple black and white answer, only hunches and subjective opinion....so all very apt for a hifi related topic. :shifty:

 

[steve_1979]

Happiness isn't the point, survival is the point, if you don't need it to survive (and you don't) then it's a luxury.

You don't need toilet paper to survive but would you consider that a luxury?

(I do agree with your point though Lhc)

 

[Freddy58]

Here's a thought.

You're the only inhabitant on the planet. Would the company of one other be considered a luxury? Do we not need the company of others for our well-being? Not sure this actually adds anything to the debate

 

[CnoEvil]

Here's a thought.

You're the only inhabitant on the planet. Would the company of one other be considered a luxury? Do we not need the company of others for our well-being? Not sure this actually adds anything to the debate

If the two people left were the same sex, then there would be no more people....making the company of the opposite sex essential for survival of the species, and so not a luxury. :shifty: