Amplifier choice: Lavardin IS, NAD c390DD or Cyrus 8 DAC QX?

prutten

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Dear all,

I am about to make the first major foray into audio equipment. After having done a tour of various shops, sellers and having listened to a lot of beautiful pieces, I have settled on the Sonus Fabor Cremona Auditor M. A truly beautiful, musical and pleasant speaker set.

However, I have not yet decided my amplifier. I have narrowed down my options to three and would love to get your input. Please note that I will not by a CD-Player, having digitized all of my music to date. I am looking forward to use the system primarily for classical music and female voice popular music. I have settled on a Solid State amplifier and am looking for a DAC + integrated amplifier at good quality. So who would be able to comment on differences on the three options below?

- Lavardin IS + Cambridge DAC magic: beautiful sound, musical

- NAD c390DD: exceptionally neutral, very detailed, lots of inputs and particularly direct HDMI option (which is helpful for connecting the TV), is a DAC and amplifier both

- Cyrus 8 DAC QX: powerful, direct, lots of inputs and modular build-out possibilities, DAC built in

Any comments on your perception of differences in sound or other advice would be highly welcome.

Kind regards,

Paul
 

CnoEvil

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Hi Paul I love your choice of speaker. :rockout:

Your choice of amp is too personal for us to call.....All I can tell you is that for me, it would be the Lavardin all the way (provided it could drive the SFs satisfactorily).

What other amps have you listened to?

For Classical music, you should also consider Dacs from Musical Fidelity, Rega, Arcam and Audiolab.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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CnoEvil said:
Your choice of amp is too personal for us to call.....All I can tell you is that for me, it would be the Lavardin all the way (provided it could drive the SFs satisfactorily).

What other amps have you listened to?

For Classical music, you should also consider Dacs from Musical Fidelity, Rega, Arcam and Audiolab.

ha ha! you beat me to it!

I vote for the Lavardin too, out of the three. was it IS or IS Reference? I had a chance to hear IT-15. wonderful amp... anyway, if large scale works are to be played on this system I suggest to look for more efficient set of speakers. or at least confirm that for your listening preferences you'll get enough dynamic range out of Lavardin.

and I too would recommend a little bit more research into DAC world.
 

prutten

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Dear CnoEvil and Oldric,

Thanks very much for your comments.

All in all, I think my classical music listening will be the discriminating factor for the system I would like to set-up

I liked the Lavardin, but had a somewhat similar hesitation on the dynamics. I listened the IS - it had sufficient power when I listened to it, but was wondering how it will perform at home (where I have a sizable living room although not ridiculously large, say 35 m2). For me, it is rather critical that the amplifier can follow the full-blown fortissimo of a symphony orchestra even when it enters from pure silence. This is not about loudness IMO but rather about ability to follow large-scale changes in dynamics (always more of an issue in classical music rather than other styles).

I have listened also to the Marantz Pearl KI (nicely done, although it did not get me excited), the Unico Research (here I did get excited, although the difference with NAD was somewhat smaller and one has to somehow narrow the choices) and finally to a McIntosh Tube amp, which sounded pretty fine too, but I decided not to go down the tube-route to - again - simplify my choices ;-)

My consideration of DACs has been limited, so if I go the Lavardin route I will have to listen some more. I have considered other DACs (eg Burson or the Antilope Zodiac), but both will eat into my budget, hence my liking for amps which have integrated DACs.
 

Macspur

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Hi,

As per prev advice, I too would go with the Lavardin, but do you know if it was the IS Reference or just the IS you heard. If the former, there would be a marked step up. However, still without the functionality your looking for.

Another consideration maybe the Krell s-300i

Cheers.
 

sortof

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A 35 sqm living room is eventually a bit large for the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M. However, Lavardin mentions that their amps work very well with the Sonus Faber Guarnery Homage, which are even less sensitive but have a fairly benign impedance minimum of 5.8 ohms at 260Hz. If possible try to arrange for testing sessions in your home before spending big money. You may find that the Cremona Auditor Ms need support by a sub or two in your largish room. Else, I would think about an Audiolab M-DAC to feed directly via XLR a good power amp. Of note, the Lavardin has neither balanced inputs nor does it provide a comfortable solution to add a sub.
 

CnoEvil

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As a lover of classical music, I know how important/difficult it is to keep the emotion of the music, as well as an accurate tone for violins, piano and voice...a good mid-range is vital.

IMO. A good system should start with a source that doesn't mess up the sound from the beginning....I like the Linn DS range, due to its musicality.

The right amp (for you) not only has to match the speakers, but also your room. Given its size, other posters were right to have slight concerns about the ability of the SFs to cope, especially with an amp (Lavardin) that doesn't have huge reserves of power...it will have to be tried in situ (as suggested).

Lavardin works very well with Living Voice speakers (which are much more efficient). I know you are probably set on the SFs, but this pairing is worth a listen.

Other brands that could be a match are as follows:

- McIntosh also have solid state models which work well with SF
- Electrocompaniet
- Bel Canto
- Musical Fidelity

I can make more definite recommendations if you can give an idea of your budget for amp/dac.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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prutten said:
For me, it is rather critical that the amplifier can follow the full-blown fortissimo of a symphony orchestra even when it enters from pure silence. This is not about loudness IMO but rather about ability to follow large-scale changes in dynamics (always more of an issue in classical music rather than other styles).

on second thought I think you might just get away with IS + Cremona combo. 45W from Lavardin will yield ~95dB max volume from Sonus Fabers without clipping. however, this Living Voice looks interesting indeed. 94dB gives you ~ 100dB which is more like it for an orchestral climax.

another option could be semi-active speakers (with active bass). I've heard great results with Golden Ear Technology Tritton2 speakers driven by a 12W tube amp from Leben. great scale and truly full-range sound. will do any large scale music justice but I admit, they don't look as presentable as SFs. hard to beat Italians in the looks department. :)

prutten said:
My consideration of DACs has been limited, so if I go the Lavardin route I will have to listen some more. I have considered other DACs (eg Burson or the Antilope Zodiac), but both will eat into my budget, hence my liking for amps which have integrated DACs.

Burson have always had great reputation. Antelope is expensive, so the decision is up to you.
 

acalex

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oldric_naubhoff said:
prutten said:
For me, it is rather critical that the amplifier can follow the full-blown fortissimo of a symphony orchestra even when it enters from pure silence. This is not about loudness IMO but rather about ability to follow large-scale changes in dynamics (always more of an issue in classical music rather than other styles).

on second thought I think you might just get away with IS + Cremona combo. 45W from Lavardin will yield ~95dB max volume from Sonus Fabers without clipping. however, this Living Voice looks interesting indeed. 94dB gives you ~ 100dB which is more like it for an orchestral climax.

another option could be semi-active speakers (with active bass). I've heard great results with Golden Ear Technology Tritton2 speakers driven by a 12W tube amp from Leben. great scale and truly full-range sound. will do any large scale music justice but I admit, they don't look as presentable as SFs. hard to beat Italians in the looks department. :)

prutten said:
My consideration of DACs has been limited, so if I go the Lavardin route I will have to listen some more. I have considered other DACs (eg Burson or the Antilope Zodiac), but both will eat into my budget, hence my liking for amps which have integrated DACs.

Burson have always had great reputation. Antelope is expensive, so the decision is up to you.

Great post. How do you calculate the loudness max of speakers without clipping? For example my Jadis50S which is 40W tube would be able to drive the SFG memento (88db sensitivity) up to which level?

Thanks a lot and sorry to the OP for the OT
 

oldric_naubhoff

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acalex said:
How do you calculate the loudness max of speakers without clipping? For example my Jadis50S which is 40W tube would be able to drive the SFG memento (88db sensitivity) up to which level?

simples

make sure though, to put 0 in headroom. and you'll have to fiddle a little bit with max loudness (other variables are constant for any given calculation) as the amp power is the result of the equation, not a variable.
 

acalex

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oldric_naubhoff said:
acalex said:
How do you calculate the loudness max of speakers without clipping? For example my Jadis50S which is 40W tube would be able to drive the SFG memento (88db sensitivity) up to which level?

simples

make sure though, to put 0 in headroom. and you'll have to fiddle a little bit with max loudness (other variables are constant for any given calculation) as the amp power is the result of the equation, not a variable.

I see, thanks a lot. So to have 95db volume at 2m distance with 88db speakers, power required is "only" 20W. 95db is far beyond my normal listening volume...
 

oldric_naubhoff

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acalex I see said:
well, there you have it. you can't cheat maths. I really don't know where some people take notions that you need at least 500W pc to play without clipping :grin:

I personally would much more prefer some raw and clean 50W pc from an good'ol class A amp, rather than some questionable 500W from class B or class D amp. not saying though that all class B and D amps are questionable. but if you have a 200W pc amp for, say, 1000 Euro it definitely means some corners were cut. and hard.

P.S. I forgot to note that my calculations in the previous post were at 3m (must have been too tired yesterday). I thought it should be in order in a 35sqm room.
 

oldric_naubhoff

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acalex said:
95db is far beyond my normal listening volume...

yeah, but this is different with large scale classical works. those fortissimos can get really loud. normal level is much quieter. I'd say 75 - 80 dB. but during a climax it gets really loud. and I mean really! depends how close to the orchestra you sit, but I suspect 100dB is definitely not an exaggeration. maybe even more. that's why trying to recreate the atmosphere of listening to a large orchestra at home requires really a top notch gear. not only musical but also able to play loud clearly. IMO standmounts are not the best choice for large scale works. they will be able to convey a bigger chunk of the real thing but they also will sound shrunk in comparison. a line source would make a much better job...
 

oldric_naubhoff

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Helmut80 said:
How reliable/accurate are the speaker sensitivity figures published by the manufacturers?

quite reliable. you can check out technical measurements in speakers reviews on Stereophile. manufacturers' values are sometimes too optimistic compared to their findings but it's never a big difference. if unsure you can always deduct say 2dB from the official spec.
 

acalex

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oldric_naubhoff said:
acalex said:
95db is far beyond my normal listening volume...

yeah, but this is different with large scale classical works. those fortissimos can get really loud. normal level is much quieter. I'd say 75 - 80 dB. but during a climax it gets really loud. and I mean really! depends how close to the orchestra you sit, but I suspect 100dB is definitely not an exaggeration. maybe even more. that's why trying to recreate the atmosphere of listening to a large orchestra at home requires really a top notch gear. not only musical but also able to play loud clearly. IMO standmounts are not the best choice for large scale works. they will be able to convey a bigger chunk of the real thing but they also will sound shrunk in comparison. a line source would make a much better job...

I definitely agree with you on this. That's why I won't listen to any classical on my system because I know it will be a compromise anyway. When there is a classic concert I like, I would go live. I went to the carmina burana live and wow...impossible to reproduce at home.
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
acalex said:
95db is far beyond my normal listening volume...

yeah, but this is different with large scale classical works. those fortissimos can get really loud. normal level is much quieter. I'd say 75 - 80 dB. but during a climax it gets really loud. and I mean really! depends how close to the orchestra you sit, but I suspect 100dB is definitely not an exaggeration. maybe even more. that's why trying to recreate the atmosphere of listening to a large orchestra at home requires really a top notch gear. not only musical but also able to play loud clearly. IMO standmounts are not the best choice for large scale works. they will be able to convey a bigger chunk of the real thing but they also will sound shrunk in comparison. a line source would make a much better job...

I definitely agree with you on this. That's why I won't listen to any classical on my system because I know it will be a compromise anyway. When there is a classic concert I like, I would go live. I went to the carmina burana live and wow...impossible to reproduce at home.

This info is great for giving a general idea, but it's not the whole story. The 35i has only 35W, but it has the best bass of any amp that I've heard at, or below its price (even ones several times as "powerful")....imo. Good current delivery as impedance drops is vital.
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
acalex said:
oldric_naubhoff said:
acalex said:
95db is far beyond my normal listening volume...

yeah, but this is different with large scale classical works. those fortissimos can get really loud. normal level is much quieter. I'd say 75 - 80 dB. but during a climax it gets really loud. and I mean really! depends how close to the orchestra you sit, but I suspect 100dB is definitely not an exaggeration. maybe even more. that's why trying to recreate the atmosphere of listening to a large orchestra at home requires really a top notch gear. not only musical but also able to play loud clearly. IMO standmounts are not the best choice for large scale works. they will be able to convey a bigger chunk of the real thing but they also will sound shrunk in comparison. a line source would make a much better job...

I definitely agree with you on this. That's why I won't listen to any classical on my system because I know it will be a compromise anyway. When there is a classic concert I like, I would go live. I went to the carmina burana live and wow...impossible to reproduce at home.

This info is great for giving a general idea, but it's not the whole story. The 35i has only 35W, but it has the best bass of any amp that I've heard at, or below its price (even ones several times as "powerful")....imo. Good current delivery as impedance drops is vital.

I was talking more about the Jadis. The AMS35i is a beast and it does not compare to any 35W. It really sounded like a 200W and was driving some Avalon Idea whici is a 88db sensitivity speaker with a 50-300W power reccomendations :rockout:
 

CnoEvil

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acalex said:
I was talking more about the Jadis. The AMS35i is a beast and it does not compare to any 35W. It really sounded like a 200W and was driving some Avalon Idea whici is a 88db sensitivity speaker with a 50-300W power reccomendations :rockout:

I was really talking very much in general, especially in relation to the OP's situation. You are now fully aware of what its 35W can sound like....hard to believe until you hear it for yourself.

The Lavardin, even though it has more power "on paper", can't handle difficult loads as effectly......it was the view (of the very honest dealer, Clooney Audio) that it wouldn't handle my Kef Ref 205s properly; and that was the IS Reference.
 

prutten

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Hi all,

Thanks very much for thinking along, this is fantastically helpful. I think I will stick with the SF Cremona Auditor M - The Guarneri look beautiful and I am sure sound beatiful but will be out of my league budget-wise. Also, both my wife and I are much sold on the good Italian looks of the SFs.

Also, with regards to floorstanders: we decided to go for monitors - I realize the sound is less deep and they will be less efficient, but here we went for the better looks.

CnOEvil:

- My total budget is max 8000 EUR, but needs to include speakers, digital source, DAC & amplifier

- Living voice indeed looks interesting and would fit well with the quality of sound I would be looking for. As per above though, unfortunately I am looking for monitors not floorstanders. I will still make sure to listen to them some day soon because what I read on-line sounds quite interesting

MacSpur / Oldric:

- I listened to the IS, not yet to the IS-reference. However the IS from a sound quality perspective already made a major impression ;-)

As to the source, I was thinking about using the Sonos (since I would like to go multiroom later) or Logitech as a second-best alternative. I don't care much about hi-res audio and the Sonos' ease of setup and use will be of importance to the rest of my family. Since I won't be using the Sonos DAC I am confident I can get a high-quality solution at CD-level.

Sortof:

- I agree the thinking on a sub. I actually think that is going to be my first upgrade after this adventure. I listened to the SFs both with and without a Velodyne sub and the difference is night and day. Also, indeed the Lavardin does not provide the best of options there given that it has no separate pre-amp out for the sub. The NAD-390 has a sub-out, which is helpful, and similarly with the Cyrus it should work as well. This is something I have to look into, perhaps it is solvable if I have sufficient flexibility on the DAC side.

Acalex

- No need to apologize for being off-topic, it is an interesting question ;-) And actually it passed my mind too.

Oldric,

The calculator is nice. With around 92 dB output, the Lavardin will not come close to full orchestra loudness of 100dB, but then again, it will be pretty close. The NAD with 150W should be able to deliver 98 dB according to the same calculator - so from that perspective it is not wildly more.

I think I am getting close to a decision, so this is really helpful.

Regards,

Paul
 

CnoEvil

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prutten said:
Hi all,

Thanks very much for thinking along, this is fantastically helpful. I think I will stick with the SF Cremona Auditor M - The Guarneri look beautiful and I am sure sound beatiful but will be out of my league budget-wise. Also, both my wife and I are much sold on the good Italian looks of the SFs.

Also, with regards to floorstanders: we decided to go for monitors - I realize the sound is less deep and they will be less efficient, but here we went for the better looks.

CnOEvil:

- My total budget is max 8000 EUR, but needs to include speakers, digital source, DAC & amplifier

- Living voice indeed looks interesting and would fit well with the quality of sound I would be looking for. As per above though, unfortunately I am looking for monitors not floorstanders. I will still make sure to listen to them some day soon because what I read on-line sounds quite interesting

Hi Paul, €8000 is equal to about £6720

The SF + Stands are about £3999 (I think) + Lavardin IS Amp is £1950, which leaves about £771 (€920) for a source - is that right?
 

acalex

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CnoEvil said:
prutten said:
Hi all,

Thanks very much for thinking along, this is fantastically helpful. I think I will stick with the SF Cremona Auditor M - The Guarneri look beautiful and I am sure sound beatiful but will be out of my league budget-wise. Also, both my wife and I are much sold on the good Italian looks of the SFs.

Also, with regards to floorstanders: we decided to go for monitors - I realize the sound is less deep and they will be less efficient, but here we went for the better looks.

CnOEvil:

- My total budget is max 8000 EUR, but needs to include speakers, digital source, DAC & amplifier

- Living voice indeed looks interesting and would fit well with the quality of sound I would be looking for. As per above though, unfortunately I am looking for monitors not floorstanders. I will still make sure to listen to them some day soon because what I read on-line sounds quite interesting

Hi Paul, €8000 is equal to about £6720

The SF + Stands are about £3999 (I think) + Lavardin IS Amp is £1950, which leaves about £771 (€920) for a source - is that right?

Or maybe come to Brussels and get last pair ex-demo from my favourite shop at 3600 eur ;)
 

oldric_naubhoff

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prutten said:
I agree the thinking on a sub. I actually think that is going to be my first upgrade after this adventure. I listened to the SFs both with and without a Velodyne sub and the difference is night and day. Also, indeed the Lavardin does not provide the best of options there given that it has no separate pre-amp out for the sub.

let that not put you off. there are subs with hi level input. which means you connect your sub straight into your amp's speaker output. no need for any pre-outs or sub-outs in such a case. for instance Rel subwoofers. and I think B&W has it too.

prutten said:
With around 92 dB output, the Lavardin will not come close to full orchestra loudness of 100dB, but then again, it will be pretty close. The NAD with 150W should be able to deliver 98 dB according to the same calculator - so from that perspective it is not wildly more.

not intending to offend you but I was just wondering if you really knew the difference between 92 dB and 98 dB? it may seem it's only 6 points difference. but dB scale is not linear. it's logarithmic. 6 pts difference means that 98 dB will sound twice as loud than 92 dB. which is quite a difference.
 

prutten

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Hi Cnoevil, I think the SFs will be around GBP 3400, Lavardin around GBP 1750, which leaves slightly more than you calculated I believe.

Acalex, I would be interested in getting the name of your favourite shop ... Brussel is not that far so I would consider that option.

Oldric, thanks for the comments. As far as I know, the Lavardin has only 1 set of speaker outputs. Therefore, Connecting a sub on the same connectors as the speaker will result in less power to the speakers since they would be in parallel, right? Also, I would be faced with the problem that the sub would be on only one output, and hence my stereo balance would be off (unless I put 2 subs in place so both speaker outputs would be similarly loaded. Or perhaps I should try to connect my source to the sub - although I don't think most DACs have a dual output and even there I would suspect that having 2 loads on the output would reduce the signal strength.

And I do realize 6dB is not minor - however, I am less interested in absolute sound output, but rather in sufficient dynamics to deal with fast and significant transtions from pp to ff. In that sense, I feel I will have less to complain (but should of course listen once to this amplifier at full power ;-)

regards,

Paul
 

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