Amplifier choice: Lavardin IS, NAD c390DD or Cyrus 8 DAC QX?

[prutten]

Hi Cnoevil, I think the SFs will be around GBP 3400, Lavardin around GBP 1750, which leaves slightly more than you calculated I believe.

Acalex, I would be interested in getting the name of your favourite shop ... Brussel is not that far so I would consider that option.

Oldric, thanks for the comments. As far as I know, the Lavardin has only 1 set of speaker outputs. Therefore, Connecting a sub on the same connectors as the speaker will result in less power to the speakers since they would be in parallel, right? Also, I would be faced with the problem that the sub would be on only one output, and hence my stereo balance would be off (unless I put 2 subs in place so both speaker outputs would be similarly loaded. Or perhaps I should try to connect my source to the sub - although I don't think most DACs have a dual output and even there I would suspect that having 2 loads on the output would reduce the signal strength.

And I do realize 6dB is not minor - however, I am less interested in absolute sound output, but rather in sufficient dynamics to deal with fast and significant transtions from pp to ff. In that sense, I feel I will have less to complain (but should of course listen once to this amplifier at full power ;-)

regards,

Paul

 

[acalex]

Hi Cnoevil, I think the SFs will be around GBP 3400, Lavardin around GBP 1750, which leaves slightly more than you calculated I believe.

Acalex, I would be interested in getting the name of your favourite shop ... Brussel is not that far so I would consider that option.

Oldric, thanks for the comments. As far as I know, the Lavardin has only 1 set of speaker outputs. Therefore, Connecting a sub on the same connectors as the speaker will result in less power to the speakers since they would be in parallel, right? Also, I would be faced with the problem that the sub would be on only one output, and hence my stereo balance would be off (unless I put 2 subs in place so both speaker outputs would be similarly loaded. Or perhaps I should try to connect my source to the sub - although I don't think most DACs have a dual output and even there I would suspect that having 2 loads on the output would reduce the signal strength.

And I do realize 6dB is not minor - however, I am less interested in absolute sound output, but rather in sufficient dynamics to deal with fast and significant transtions from pp to ff. In that sense, I feel I will have less to complain (but should of course listen once to this amplifier at full power ;-)

regards,

Paul

Paul, just ask one of the moderators for my personal email and send me yours. I will give you all details you want and maybe take you to the shop as well if you like and if you come here. I am spending qui te a lot with him so you might get a special treatment . He also has lavardin IS (which I listened today) and I really liked.

Unfortunately I can't leave here my email as it is against house rules!

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cnoevil, I think the SFs will be around GBP 3400, Lavardin around GBP 1750, which leaves slightly more than you calculated I believe.

I was allowing £3300 for the speakers and £699 for the stands, so you have either got a great price, or using cheaper stands.

If you have enough left over for a Linn Sneaky as a source, I would recommend putting it on your shortlist.

 

[CnoEvil]

Paul, just ask one of the moderators for my personal email and send me yours. I will give you all details you want and maybe take you to the shop as well if you like and if you come here. I am spending quite a lot with him so you might get a special treatment

Get yourself on commission. :shifty:

 

[acalex]

Paul, just ask one of the moderators for my personal email and send me yours. I will give you all details you want and maybe take you to the shop as well if you like and if you come here. I am spending quite a lot with him so you might get a special treatment

Get yourself on commission. :shifty:

Yes, why not!

 

[prutten]

Hi CnoEvil, I indeed got a good deal offered - so that makes for a bit more possibilities to spend on other pieces of equipment ;-)

I also think I found a solution for the sub. If the DAC has 2 separate outputs, I should be able to connect an active sub to the unbalanced output of the DAC. Thanks for the comments on running the sub through hi-level input, that sounds like an alternative too.

Acalex: agreed that I could never reproduce the Carmina Burana in a living room - I have decided to forego that ambition. And I do attend regular live concerts ;-) Still, I like to listen to big impact musical pieces at home.

As per the suggestions above, I have decided also to go listen to the living voice speakers parallel to the Sonus Fabers ;-) Who knows what this will lead to.

Regards,

Paul

 

[CnoEvil]

As per the suggestions above, I have decided also to go listen to the living voice speakers parallel to the Sonus Fabers ;-) Who knows what this will lead to.....

....it will lead to a decision that is more likely to be correct for you, by checking out the sensible alternatives.

Don't forget to report in with your findings.

:cheers:

Cno

 

[acalex]

Hi CnoEvil, I indeed got a good deal offered - so that makes for a bit more possibilities to spend on other pieces of equipment ;-)

I also think I found a solution for the sub. If the DAC has 2 separate outputs, I should be able to connect an active sub to the unbalanced output of the DAC. Thanks for the comments on running the sub through hi-level input, that sounds like an alternative too.

Acalex: agreed that I could never reproduce the Carmina Burana in a living room - I have decided to forego that ambition. And I do attend regular live concerts ;-) Still, I like to listen to big impact musical pieces at home.

As per the suggestions above, I have decided also to go listen to the living voice speakers parallel to the Sonus Fabers ;-) Who knows what this will lead to.

Regards,

Paul

That's a very good idea. I also strongly suggest you to try all the options before deciding. Again, if you would decide to take a trip to Brussels you could try everything at the same time (Lavardin IS, IS reference with Living Voice, Sonus Faber, eventually Audio Phisycs also).

 

[sortof]

I agree the thinking on a sub. I actually think that is going to be my first upgrade after this adventure. I listened to the SFs both with and without a Velodyne sub and the difference is night and day. Also, indeed the Lavardin does not provide the best of options there given that it has no separate pre-amp out for the sub.

let that not put you off. there are subs with hi level input. which means you connect your sub straight into your amp's speaker output.

Of course, that´s a way of doing it. From the amp speaker output to the sub and from there to the speakers. However, thereby you place the crossover network of the sub between the amp and the main speakers. This may muddle the sound to some extent and it cuts the main speakers off the lower frequencies. I was in the same situation with an amp having only one pair of speaker outputs and no pre-out and worked out a different approach. Basically, I "forced" 2 banana plugs into a single amp speaker output. From here one cable goes to the sub and the other to the speaker. It´s basically a self-made "Y" soution. This way the main speaker still gets the full frequency spectrum and the sub just adds to this as fill-in, instead of letting the sub do the low stuff and the main the speakers exclusively the stuff above.

 

[prutten]

Dear contributors,

I wanted to thank you all for thinking along. I wanted to update you on my decisions and hope my experiences can help others and in that way give a little bit back to you.

I have now decided on the Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor M with the NAD c90dd. I found the NAD c390dd unequaled in creating a fabulously clear sound stage. Very crisp sound, without any undesired characterization. Still, it does not make sounds harsh or unpleasant (which I found with some very transparent systems). I compared the NAD to a Lavardin and to various tube amplifiers. Tubes sounded truly fuzzy in comparison, so I removed them from consideration. The Lavardin is beautiful but I found the NAD to be in the same class honestly, which surprised me positively. In addition, despite its humble appearance, this amplifier packs real ability to power big speakers and to really fill a big room with sound. I observed some issues with the Lavardin in large-scale orchestral works at decent volume (e.g., filling / blurring of the sound) - the NAD had no issues at these volumes and complexity. At the end, it was the sound quality which made the biggest difference for me in the decision.

However, this is not the only thing the NAD has going for it. I also commend NAD for making this a product which is a breeze to install and use. Very straightforward setup, I got it up and running in one go in 5 min, all products should be this easy. Also, the NAD packs a multitude of possibilities to connect a whole lot of equipment, sources, PCs, TVs etc. Beautifully depicts CDs I ripped and run through my Sonos, I heard all kinds of bits and pieces of my music I never heard before.

Also, I am also in love with the HDMI options which allowed me to hook up my DVD and TV. It may not be the most audiophile of options, but it is quite handy! It makes my HD TV package worth its while - feeding digital audio directly from the TV set-top box to this amplifier makes for a much clearer and much better quality sound than the in-built amplifier in a TV. It is good enough to hear the difference between bad and good quality recording in TV studios

I am looking forward also to some of the updates that NAD will come up with given the fact that the interface is programmable and I still have a slot left for a modular upgrade. I would be grateful for any product which would eliminate the remote control, e.g., so that I can operate the volume control through my ipad in the Sonos application. This way, I could also fully hide the amplifier in a closet somewhere which I think would be great rather than having a box in the middle of my room. The NAD is not ugly, but it is by far not such an Italian beauty as the Sonus Fabers are ;-)

As an engineer, I also love the beautifully executed Power-DAC concept. Beautifully engineered, made with a love for technology. The very short signal path, integration of the DAC appeals to me as a logical and well-made concept. If there is one thing I have learned in engineering it is that simpler is almost always better, and a digital amplifier does not get much simpler than this.

All in all, I am very enthusiastic about my switch to digital - great value for money. I recommend the NAD amplifier to any true lover of sound and music!

Thanks again fellow forum members for all your helpful input, it made a major difference - it is great that you are offering your free time to help a random fellow somewhere else, I hope my considerations above will also be helpful for other people searching for their perfect solution!

Warm regards and happy easter weekend,

Paul

 

[CnoEvil]

Paul, it's good to hear how you got on, and that you are happy with your choice.

I was worried that the Lavardin would find it tough driving the SFs, which is why I threw in the LV suggestion.

Again, it would take an expensive Valve amp, with a hefty transformer, to handle the SFs.

Happy Easter to you as well

Cno

 

[prutten]

Hi Cno,

turned out you were right, I found the Lavardin indeed had a tough time driving the SFs. I aimed to listen to the LVs, but it turned out they are hard to find in the Netherlands ;-). On the other hand, I decided after a few more auditions that I had truly fallen in love with the SFs (compared to Dynaudio Contour S1.4/S3.4, Dali, the Diapason, B&W, KEF and a whole number of other speakers I had listened to). Eventually I decided that having fallen in love once was enough - no need to make it difficult on myself by falling in love with 2 different sets of speakers and then having to make a quite difficult decision ;-)

Regards,

Paul

 

[prutten]

Hi Cno,

turned out you were right, I found the Lavardin indeed had a tough time driving the SFs. I aimed to listen to the LVs, but it turned out they are hard to find in the Netherlands ;-). On the other hand, I decided after a few more auditions that I had truly fallen in love with the SFs (compared to Dynaudio Contour S1.4/S3.4, Dali, the Diapason, B&W, KEF and a whole number of other speakers I had listened to). Eventually I decided that having fallen in love once was enough - no need to make it difficult on myself by falling in love with 2 different sets of speakers and then having to make a quite difficult decision ;-)

Regards,

Paul

 

[CnoEvil]

Hi Cno,

turned out you were right, I found the Lavardin indeed had a tough time driving the SFs. I aimed to listen to the LVs, but it turned out they are hard to find in the Netherlands ;-). On the other hand, I decided after a few more auditions that I had truly fallen in love with the SFs (compared to Dynaudio Contour S1.4/S3.4, Dali, the Diapason, B&W, KEF and a whole number of other speakers I had listened to). Eventually I decided that having fallen in love once was enough - no need to make it difficult on myself by falling in love with 2 different sets of speakers and then having to make a quite difficult decision ;-)

Regards,

Paul

What did you think of the Diapason, which should have sounded well if correctly set up (BTW which model was it).

 

[prutten]

It was a close call. I really liked the diapasons. I have listened to both the Karis and the Adamantes. They sound beautiful. Their looks are stunning, perhaps even better then the SFs.

I found that the Diapasons are perfect for voice recordings. They have a perfect midrange which depict with absolute clarity. Their sound is pleasant, smooth but not mellow. I could have listened to them for hours. The diapasons sound slightly smaller than the Sonus Fabers. It felt as if they were projecting through a slightly smaller aperture, if the analogy makes any sense. However, I could live with the Diapasons any day of the week I am sure. I would quite highly recommend them.

One minor consideration was that the Diapasons are not screwed onto their base like the SFs are, which makes them more vulnerable to kids running around. However, if they had had clearly superior sound, I would have still considered them and told my kids to be very careful ;-)

Regards,

Paul

 

[CnoEvil]

Thx for the insight.....I thought it might be a close run contest.

 

[Anonymous]

Paul,

I have a Sonos and want to combine with a amp. I liked the NAD C 390DD on spec and price but haven't had a chance to listen to it in person yet. A question I had was whether you could control the volume via the Sonos controller. From your response I assume this is not possible. I assume you are using the digital out on the Sonos to connect to the C 390DD. I was wondering if you hear any difference between using digital out or analog out on the Sonos to feed the C 390DD? I also look forward to the Audio gear folks starting to connect their equipment to the network and then being able to control thru a smartphone, ipad, computer. I really like having my music digitized and accessible via the Sonos or PC. I sent a note to NAD asking about a smart phone controller and the reply was they were looking at it so it's at least on their radar screen.

 

[prutten]

Hi Junk,

sorry for not responding earlier but I was off-line for a few weeks. You cannot use the Sonos controller to drive the NAD c390 dd volume (although that would be a logical and useful feature to add, I hope that someday NAD will make this possible, since it would eliminate the remote control for me).

You can indeed use the Sonos volume control (and I regularly do). After a careful reading of the blogs, here is my understanding how it works:

1. The Sonos converts from 16 to 24 bits - so effectively giving it 8 extra bits for volume control (effectively these are zeros at the end of the original words). In most cases therefore, the Sonos volume control only shifts bits to the right

2. At extremely low volumes, you might theoretically expect some quantization problems. I have never been able to detect any deterioration in quality.

I never use the analog out on my Sonos, my NAD doesn't have an Analog-to-Digital converter (ADC) - I bought it for its stellar DAC conversion, not the other way around ;-). Therefore, with this choice I also went fully digital on all my sources (not a hard choice since I have never owned any vinyl or other analog media to speak of and all modern media is digital).

Great that you asked NAD for a smartphone app - I suspect that any smart programmer should be able to throw something together. In my mind, integrating this with the Sonos would be quite distinctive (and that integration would make a lot of sense from my point of view) - now with the Sonos platform being more open to developers, perhaps someone will get motivated and make this possible.

I would encourage to go and try the NAD - I have now owned it for a while and am still quite in love with it!

kind regards,

Paul

 

[manicm]

Prutten, if your Sonos has a digital output then it will be perfectly compatible with the NAD C390DD - simply connect digitally. Also the NAD has an optional analogue module with an ADC converter to connect analogue sources like FM tuners, turntables (both MM and MC) etc.