£2000 headphone system

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I was intrigued looking back through the April 2008 Ultimate Guide to Hifi to read of the £1000 Grado GS1000s (now replaced with the i version) that "in tandem with a good source (£600+ CD player) and headphone amp, these Grados can deliver an astonishing sense of space." It does say £600+ but, even so,I was intrigued because this goes against two very generalising rules of thumb that a budget be split roughly equally between source, amp and speakers, and that headphones produce the sound quality of speakers around five times the price. In other words, something like Grado's SR325i at £300, being the equivalent at least of a £1500 pair of speakers like the Spendor A5, should be matched with the Cyrus CD8SE as minimum. I would have thought that the GS10000s would be best suited to a truly top-notch CD player and would at best not reveal everything they have to offer on the end of a decent £600 CD play like a Rega Apollo and at worst reveal the CD player's deficiencies.

So, with around £2000 to spend on a headphone sysetm, and having earmarked £400 for the headphone amp (probably the Icon HD8 valve driven amp though I will listen to Graham Slee, Lehman, etc. too), should I be looking at a Rega Apollo/Grado GS1000i combination or a Cyrus CD8SE/Grado SR325i?
 
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Anonymous

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would love a pair of good Grado's but can only drool at this stage .... I check ebay daily for a bargain, but dont find any

here is a set of HF2's on ebay (from Israel) ... supposed to be very rare?

ebay item 110447668332 on £899 with a buy it now
 
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Anonymous

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HF2? Look interesting - I don't think I have ever come acroos them.
 

lonely boy

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The HF-2s were a limited edition of 500 sold only to members of Head-Fi via Todd The Vinyl Junkie (TTVJ).
I own a pair (no. 343), they originally cost $429 but obviously their price has appreciated a little.

e
 
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Anonymous

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Try Stax electrostatic earspeakers. The best sound I've ever heard from anything, full stop, period.

Matt. Matt.
 
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Anonymous

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In the not to distant future I am taking over an island pub. For a novelty I plan to move in my Vinyl system. For the house I plan to use my ikimi cd player with a headphone system. My budget will be around the £1,700 mark.
So I'm glad Edie41 has thrown in another highend headphone that I have never heard of until now. I take you have a pair Eddie41. Did you try them against other head phones.
 
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Anonymous

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I always remember telling my dealer that I expected bigger margins in sound quality when I was up grading my hi fi.
He told me in most cases you are looking at a 10% increase in playback quality. That was from changing Linn for Linn.
However the biggest increase in playback quality I noticed was from my Magik cd player to the ikimi cd player. It played cd's in a whole new different light to the point where tracks sounded different. The door had been finally opened so to speak.

As for getting good headphones I would imagine the amp is just as important. Trouble is finding top grade phones for demo.
 
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Anonymous

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Hello idc , it's strange writing to yourself don't you think ! !

I'm giving up a life at sea and my wife is giving up teaching. A fried is retiring from the Anchor Inn over on Bute , Port Bannatyne. Not a money spinner but a better quality of life appeals. I'm a chef to trade which should come in handy.

Here is a post I found interesting.....

All my listening was on a Naim system (555/552/500/SL2/Headline 2 with
Hi-Cap 2 - except for the Stax system where the last two are concerned,
since the Stax comes with its own valve headphone amplifier). I used a
wide range of music to compare the headphones, including Elisabeth
Schwarzkopf singing Strauss's four last songs, Kubelik's Mahler's fifth
symphony, Pink Floyd's Division Bell, Rautavaara's Cantus Arcticus and
piano concerto, Ted Sirota's Geronimo's free, Cocteau Twins' Head Over
Heels, the Groundhogs and several other bits and bobs that I can't
remember offhand at the moment, including classical solo piano, string
quartets and jazz.

Sennheiser HD 650

The Sennheiser
phones were where I started out, having owned more than one pair over
the years, which had generally kept me happy in terms of sound quality,
reliability and spares availability. I opted for open headphones, since
I have found that they generally weigh less while offering a more open
and relaxed sound, whereas closed phones tend to sound a little more
shut in, have a diving bell "compression" effect and generally end up
making my ears feel sweaty.

The HD 650 are relatively large
but not terribly heavy phones with large oval pads that go around your
ears. Overall they are quite comfortable, although the oval shape of
the pads, which are taller than they are wide, can rub a little on the
back of the ears. On the other hand, this oval pad design makes it much
easier to position them consistently (there is less scope for fore to
back variation). Their biggest weakness when it comes to comfort is
that they have a strong "clamping" effect which cannot be entirely
mitigated by trying to bend the headband out. These phones are finished
to a high standard, come supplied in a nice presentation case with
converter to a quarter inch jack, and look quite impressive. For around
£200 in most places, they are pretty good value for money.

The
Sennheisers were bought from new and improved slightly, gaining in
authority and control, during a relatively short burn-in period of
around 30 hours or so, although they continued to improve slightly
after this.

The sound of the Sennheisers is on the "dark" side,
with a fair amount of treble roll-off combined with a bass response
that is prominent rather than flat. Despite the somewhat warm sound,
the Sennheisers are otherwise quite neutral and transparent overall.
They also have quite a "big" sound, although you still tend to feel
that everything is going on inside your head rather than outside it. In
addition, there tend to be only three locations in the soundstage: far
left, centre and far right.

Resolution is good, enabling you to
follow instruments quite well. Detail, on the other hand, very
definitely suffers in comparison to a top-end Naim speaker system. This
also involves quite a loss of the texture and resonance of instruments.
This perception is accentuated by the fact that the rather full bass is
particularly lacking in detail, while the midrange, though more
detailed, is somewhat recessed, and the rolled-off highs result in a
lack of treble sheen.

Pace, rhythm and timing (PRaT) are also
lacking, something which is occasionally to the detriment of the
cohesion and drive of the music. In addition, attack can be a little
dull and there is very little decay. Taken altogether, although the
sound of these headphones can be quite rich, rewarding and
non-fatiguing, I gradually found it more and more disappointing
compared to my main system, particularly the lack of PRaT and detail -
which affected all types of music, from classical soprano and orchestra
to acoustic double bass and electric guitar.

I have read that
upgrade cables - Cardas and Zu Mobius are the ones most mentioned, can
improve on the PRaT and detail, but have not tried either. They almost
double the Sennheiser's price.

Stax 4040

These were
supplied by Peter to audition as the Stax reference system two,
complete with valve headphone amp. Despite their price, these
headphones look pretty tacky in a shade of dark brown tinged with green
that would delight a coprophiliac and possibly ex-military personnel,
but are otherwise unlikely to be found attractive. They are also very
plasticky and the leather ear pads not only appeared to be glued on,
but in some points appear to be detaching. I believe this is not
unusual. On the other hand, everything was still in place despite what
I could only assume is a relatively intense life as demonstration
headphones. There is nothing to come unscrewed, pop out or fall off and
the headphones were in fact extremely comfortable, being lighter than
the Sennheisers, with no clamping effect and less tendency to warm the
ears. The ear pads are themselves rectangular (although the
electrostatic membranes are oval) and this works similarly to the
Sennheisers where positioning and comfort are concerned in fact, the
Stax were the most comfortable of the lot, not least of all because
they are a very open design which allows more air to get to your ears,
keeping them cooler. The valve amp is nicely made in typical Japanese
style and requires little warmup. I have been told that the system
needs some burning in, but was unable to verify any of that with this
demonstration set.

Sonically, the Stax is a very refined
headphone with an extremely neutral and open sound that doesn't
emphasise any part of the spectrum. Its sense of rhythm is superior to
the Sennheisers, and indeed it is lighter, faster and more deft in its
response overall. Decay is also better, meaning that drums and bells,
for example, sound more lifelike. The Stax also has a less "in the
head" sound than the Sennheisers, with more space around individual
instruments. On the negative side, the Stax have a very smooth sound
that while extremely unfatiguing is a little lacking in dynamics and
detail, particularly the texture and body of notes and voices. This was
very noticeable on double bass, for example, and Schwarzkopf's voice -
which lost much of its "breathy" magic. Electric guitar notes also lost
their complexity, as on occasions did violin. The effect was at its
strangest on the Rautavaara Cantus, where the birds quite simply didn't
sound bird-like. While the Stax hold a rhythm well, pace and
particularly timing is less satisfying, especially compared to my
speaker system or the Grados. How much of this was due to the valve
amplifier and how much to the headphones itself is difficult to say,
since I didn't have a high-end Stax transistor amplifier to make the
comparison.

I can imagine a lot of people liking what the
hi-fi magazines would euphemistically refer to as the "euphonic",
simple, smooth and honeyed sound of the Stax, but it wasn't my cup of
tea in the end and I was actually quite relieved to return to the
Grados I had been burning in. I did, however, find the Stax phones much
more satisfying than the Sennheisers, including where detail and
resolution are concerned. At just over £1000, they are good value
compared to the Sennheisers once you factor in the cost of the Headline
and Hi-Cap. On the other hand, this commits you to just using
headphones from Stax, whereas you can obviously chop and change with
the Headline.

Grado GS-1000

I really didn't know what to
expect from these headphones, since there is a lot of conflicting
information about them on the Internet despite euphoric reviews in the
hi-fi press. One thing is for sure, though: they're not cheap,
retailing at around £1000 although you can buy them for as little as
£699 online at iheadphones. In my opinion, one of the reasons for this
disparity is the fact that the GS-1000 requires an immensely long
burn-in period before it starts performing consistently at its best.
This is just one of several ways in which they are comparable to Naim
loudspeakers.

The Grado headphones are nicely but not
superlatively finished, with a thin leather-covered headband that is
easy to bend to give you the right pressure for stability and comfort,
and extremely large round foam earcups that sit on the distinctive
mahogany driver housings. The earcups are the most striking initial
characteristic of these phones, allowing some latitude of fore and aft
placement, which has a small but noticeable effect on the sound
balance. Comfort gradually increases as the earcup foam softens with
use. The phones come complete with a jack converter and extension lead.

What
the large earcups do to the sound is to create a much greater sense of
space and separation between instruments than either the Sennheisers or
the Stax. These headphones sound very much more like speakers, with the
music appearing to come from outside your head, although this is a bit
of an "aural illusion" in that it diminishes if you concentrate on it
in the same way that concentrating on optical illusion causes you to
lose its effect. Concentrate on the sound, and you find it is of course
in your head or - more accurately - arrayed around the front of your
face, but it's easy to forget this while listening and have more of a
sense that you're in an auditorium. The downside to this effect is that
you feel slightly more distant from the music than with other
headphones, but it is a very pleasant, transparent effect despite a
slightly warm sonic balance, and is very effective for large-scale
orchestral music, organ and electronica in particular. The downside is
that it can make small ensemble works - whether classical, jazz or
acoustic rock - just a little less intimate.

Burn-in is a very
rocky road with these headphones, so if you ever audition a pair try
and make sure that they are burnt in. Initially, both the bass and
upper treble are very pronounced. These phones also have great attack
and decay, but the decay in particular is quite exaggerated when they
are new and can be overwhelming on drum machines, for example. The
treble when new is not only very extended but also a little harsh,
while the midrange, which is initially quite transparent, subsequently
becomes tizzy and squawking before finally settling down. The midrange
is also comparatively recessed when the phones are new. As you can
imagine, it would be easy to dismiss these as a mixed bag of special
effects gone wrong, but that would be a big mistake. They're certainly
not perfect, with a bass that's more fulsome than flat and an extended
treble that can be tiring on poor recordings. Or at least those are
their only remaining weak points at the moment, with around 60 hours of
burn-in but things still continuing to improve. Some reviews claim that
these phones don't reach their best until you have clocked up as much
as 200 hours listening, so it may be that I report back in a few weeks
and drown everyone with the patience to read this in a slew of
superlatives.

While very light and comfortable, the Grados
nevertheless warm the ears more than the Stax, although I can happily
wear them for hours, especially if I take them off to give my ears a
breather while I change CDs. I suppose the fact that I'm occasionally
too lazy to bother testifies to their comfort.

But what about
their real strengths? Well, the GS-1000 is amazingly detailed, well up
there with Naim's best speakers. Equally important, the GS-1000
resolves this detail well, allowing you to relish the texture and tone
of individual instruments and follow them without this in any way
interfering with the cohesiveness of the music as a whole. PRaT is much
better than either the Sennheiser or Stax phones, making for a much
more involving musical experience. Although not an entirely neutral
phone, this combination of PRaT, detail and resolution makes them the
most realistic phones I have ever heard. In short, Rautavaara's birds
sounded like birds and Schwarzkopf sounded like Schwarzkopf in all her
full-bodied glory. Electric guitar is likewise thrilling in its
complexity of tone and timbre. Low level detail is also better than
either of the other headphones. Bass, likewise, is in an entirely
different league, being both much more powerful and extended, but
articulate with it too. The GS 1000 create sense of space and presence
that is very strong and beguiling, although this can, as explained,
sometimes create a sense of distance, making me curious about the Grado
RS-1. At the same time, however, this spaciousness doesn't exclude
presence and intimacy. On more than one occasion, the entry of a new
musical instrument quite took me by surprise, so much did I suddenly
feel it "there". Indeed, those Floyd tracks where someone enters a room
actually got me turning around to see who had come in!

Though
not perhaps as unfatiguing as the Stax, I find these Grados by far the
most involving and satisfying of these three headphones and the closest
to the wonderful combination of articulacy, detail, texture, timing,
dynamic versatility and delicacy that one gets with Naim's best
speakers. I'll keep you posted on whether things do just keep improving
over the next 100 hours and also let you know how I find the GS-1000
compares with the RS-1.
 

idc

Well-known member
Hi I.D.C, is that you finished seafaring then? I have been to Bute once and spent a weekend getting pished in Rothesay. We did not make it anywhere else. I have some info which could come handy re rural pub life and licensing as I lived in Argyll, permission to exchange e-mails I.D.C please.

That is an excellent set of reviews. Has the same reviewer reviewed the AKG K702s? They have the strengths that the reviewer liked about the GS-1000s in terms of out of the head listening, detail and dynamics. They also take a long time to run in. All for much less than the Grados.

There has been a little run of information on the forum recently that suggests headphones and sound quality suffer severe diminishing returns over only about £250-£300.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
No problem idc regarding e-mails. I take it you click on your name to get the e-mail address ? Argyll is fine part of the country.Unfortunately the poster did not review the AKG's. Funny we all strive to find that perfect sound and I suppose auditioning is the answer. However as I wrote above it's not so easy to find a place that will audition all the best headphones
 

idc

Well-known member
We need a kindly What Hifi person to spot this and then they send each of us the others email address.

EDIT - please can I.D.C and I get an exchange of e-mails, contrary to popular belief we are not the same person!
 

wireman

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Re: I.D.C.'s posting about the Stax 4040 system (which I have).

Yes, it's a fair summary IMHO, but you need to realise that there are 4 different headphone "energisers" or amplifiers, and 3 different models of headphones - you can mix and match any energiser with any headphone to get wildly different presentations. The 4040 combination is simply a popular package of the ordinary valve energiser with their middle model headphone. There's also a triode valve energiser unit and two different transistor models (which are probably better suited to those seeking a more dynamic/driving sound). Ever since Path Premier stopped distribution & exhibiting at hi-fi shows, and Simply Stax stopped trading (by choice), it's been almost impossible to find all models of everything under one roof for comparison. But as I recall, their top model energiser and headphone combination is well over £3000, which makes the 4040 system reviewed in I.B.C.'s post look positively cheap.

The official UK-based Stax engineer also has a couple of valve mods available which adds yet another dimension to what Stax 'phones can do.

Have Stax 'phones never been reviewed in WHF then? It seems strange that there are people here interested in a hi-end 'phone system who are unfamiliar with this brand, especially when I think that Stax have been making (and now exclusively only make) such systems since about the 1970's.
 
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Anonymous

Guest
I.D.C.:In the not to distant future I am taking over an island pub. For a novelty I plan to move in my Vinyl system. For the house I plan to use my ikimi cd player with a headphone system. My budget will be around the £1,700 mark.
So I'm glad Edie41 has thrown in another highend headphone that I have never heard of until now. I take you have a pair Eddie41. Did you try them against other head phones.

Sorry for the late reply, i have been distracted by personal issues.

Personally, I own Senny 650's ( I think maybe 600's?!) and a pair of AKG 271s ( again I think ) I also have some cheaper Beyers.

But as my experience of Stax goes, I was at a show with my own discs, moving up through their range.

I just heard stuff I'd not heard before and in such a clean listenable and comfortable way; I was sold. BUT, my pocket has never been able to afford them in the past.

This thread has encouraged me to check them out again, there really are some benifts of getting older!! Or as I'm told, more money than sense! It still aint that much sense though
emotion-1.gif


Matt
 

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