Yet more speaker advice needed

[Pedro2]

I have been contemplating a speaker upgrade for some time but would appreciate any thoughts and recommendations.

My current system consists of a Linn Majik DSM feeding a Roksan Caspian M2 power amp into a pair of Neat Motive 2SE.

The room is smallish, approx 4m square and has solid floor with thick stone walls; as a result, the sound could be described as well damped although bass can appear overblown at times with certain material at higher volumes (not always an issue though).

We listen to a mix of music from pop/rock (Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, Alison Kraus) through old school dance to classical.

Although, at times, I am very happy with the sound, at others, I feel as though there is more to be had! Budget is up to £2500.

Initial thoughts are to consider:

PMC twenty series

Neat Elite or Momentum

Proac

Not sure either whether to go for floor standers or stand mount. Have recently read reviews for KEF LS50 and think they should also go on the list. I know that this quest appears rather open ended at the moment but the timescale could easily be 12 months so the list can gradually be narrowed down. Any suggestions much appreciated

 

[CnoEvil]

Can I be very predictable and suggest you try the DSM directly into some R300s / LS50s / R500s....if this works, you could have something to sell. I have been amazed at how good this has sounded.

 

[davedotco]

Can I be very predictable and suggest you try the DSM directly into some R300s / LS50s / R500s....if this works, you could have something to sell. I have been amazed at how good this has sounded.

I would join you on the predictability stakes, how about the DSM directly into some of these.........

Assuming the DSM has the right outputs of course...... :?

 

[Pedro2]

Thanks for the suggestions Cno and Dave. Interesting ideas. The Roksan was bought because it definitely improved the sound of the Neats; I had assumed that the Majik power amp was a weak link and switched it off! I had also considered bi amping speakers with both the Caspian and Linn as an experiment (current pair only have single terminals) although wouldn't expect a favourable outcome. Has anyone ever tried mixing power amps, I wonder? The active PMCs I'd not thought of. Probably because they would make both amps redundant (as well as the pre amp in the Majik, am I correct?). Not averse to moving kit on although I need to make a start on this soon as bits of kit are accumulating around the house (e.g Audio GD Dac under the bed!) I would like to hear more detail and with greater space than getting at the moment. It's not a bad sound; just that at times I can easily turn it off and believe that a more engaging sound is within grasp. Not sure if that makes sense :?

 

[Pedro2]

Can I be very predictable and suggest you try the DSM directly into some R300s / LS50s / R500s....if this works, you could have something to sell. I have been amazed at how good this has sounded.

I would join you on the predictability stakes, how about the DSM directly into some of these.........

Assuming the DSM has the right outputs of course...... :?

just noticed your Jakson Browne quote, Davedotco. We saw him live in Sheffield a few years back. Superb!

 

[adamrobertshaw]

The PMC twenty 22 are the best speaker I have heard in the £2k range. The PMC ATL technology is what keeps them in my high regard.
The PMC also cured a bass issue I had at home.
With the matching stands you will be close to your £2,500 budget.

I have wondered (but not much) whether I should have gone for the twenty 24. The ATL is longer but the price increase is considerable.

 

[davedotco]

Can I be very predictable and suggest you try the DSM directly into some R300s / LS50s / R500s....if this works, you could have something to sell. I have been amazed at how good this has sounded.

I would join you on the predictability stakes, how about the DSM directly into some of these.........

Assuming the DSM has the right outputs of course...... :?

just noticed your Jakson Browne quote, Davedotco. We saw him live in Sheffield a few years back. Superb!

Saw him several times back in the seventies, some of the 'stripped back' performances with just David Lindley were heart rending.

Kind of lost interest in the 80s, too many other things to get into.

Vaguely related, my sound engineer (when I was running live sound) was the absolute spitting image of the young JB from about this era......

Ooops, won't let me link the photo

 

[garyw77]

Talking of PMC's, i would definitely recommend a listen to the Twenty 23's, solved my bass problems too and fantastic clarity.
Don't know if you can do floorstanders but would fit the budget and highly recommend.

 

[steve_1979]

Can I be very predictable and suggest...

I would join you on the predictability stakes...

:shifty:

Have you considered selling the amp and getting some AVI ADM9's with the matching AVI 10" sub or the Quested S7R's with the Quested 10" sub?

 

[CnoEvil]

Thanks for the suggestions Cno and Dave. Interesting ideas. The Roksan was bought because it definitely improved the sound of the Neats; I had assumed that the Majik power amp was a weak link and switched it off! I had also considered bi amping speakers with both the Caspian and Linn as an experiment (current pair only have single terminals) although wouldn't expect a favourable outcome. Has anyone ever tried mixing power amps, I wonder? The active PMCs I'd not thought of. Probably because they would make both amps redundant (as well as the pre amp in the Majik, am I correct?). Not averse to moving kit on although I need to make a start on this soon as bits of kit are accumulating around the house (e.g Audio GD Dac under the bed!) I would like to hear more detail and with greater space than getting at the moment. It's not a bad sound; just that at times I can easily turn it off and believe that a more engaging sound is within grasp. Not sure if that makes sense :?

Up until a few months ago I didn't like Linn amps, and have said so many times on here. I found them cold and uninvolving...but always enjoyed the DSsss.

Then came a demo with a friend, where I heard the MDSM matched with the R Series (and LS50s).....I could scarcely believe my ears,as it presented music in a way that was the opposite of what I'd come to expect. My friend was hooked, and the owner of the shop (whom I've known for over 30 years) said that the MDSM + R700s were the combination that were flying off the shelf.

It was due to my findings that has caused me to strongly suggest that you try this particular combination. Sometimes in this hobby you find a pairing that just works (eg. Sugden/Proac; Electro/PMC; Accuphase/Harbeth), and provide a sound that is more than the sum of their parts...and imo this is just such a match.

If I'm right, your problem is sorted , your box count is reduced, and you stand to make a little money on the side. If I'm wrong, all you have lost is a little demo time.

Sometimes, as Rick often says, simple is often best.

 

[plastic penguin]

I have been contemplating a speaker upgrade for some time but would appreciate any thoughts and recommendations.

My current system consists of a Linn Majik DSM feeding a Roksan Caspian M2 power amp into a pair of Neat Motive 2SE.

The room is smallish, approx 4m square and has solid floor with thick stone walls; as a result, the sound could be described as well damped although bass can appear overblown at times with certain material at higher volumes (not always an issue though).

We listen to a mix of music from pop/rock (Eagles, Fleetwood Mac, Steely Dan, Alison Kraus) through old school dance to classical.

Although, at times, I am very happy with the sound, at others, I feel as though there is more to be had! Budget is up to £2500.

Initial thoughts are to consider:

PMC twenty series

Neat Elite or Momentum

Proac

Not sure either whether to go for floor standers or stand mount. Have recently read reviews for KEF LS50 and think they should also go on the list. I know that this quest appears rather open ended at the moment but the timescale could easily be 12 months so the list can gradually be narrowed down. Any suggestions much appreciated

I'd be looking at these http://totemacoustic.com/en/hi-fi/compact/model-1-signature/

 

[Bigsounds]

I'vw always found those Neats to sound quite funky, I would add the Kudos Cardea C2 to your list to audition, they have a clear quick tone, however I think the speakers are not so much the problem but your small square room is, maybe some Kudos C1 would be better or some top end Acoustic Energy's, but whatever you go for your room is going to have the final say.

 

[Pedro2]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. PMC appear to be extremely popular. Did get a chance to audition a pair of DB1s before settling for the Neats. Seem to remember the mid range and top to be more open than the Neat's but the bass was just a little too lacking for me at the time. Got to say though, that we only compared them at home for a few hours. I look forward to hearing something larger from PMC. I agree with the comment about our room. It's built like a bunker with low ceiling included. Not sure about floor standers anymore. They also need to be fairly close to the rear wall (20cm approx). A revealing stand mount with good stand may be the solution. Maybe the PMC Twenty 22. I will also check out the Kef LS50 with the Majik power amp switched back on as suggested by Cno. The Totem also has excellent reviews but not sure where I could hear them near to home. Davedotco - my brother (who can play a guitar) always mentions David Lindley when he hears Jackson Browne. I believe the expression 'sweet as a nut' applies!

 

[davedotco]

Given the issues with the room, I have to put in another word for the TwoTwo.5s. Being active they have fantastic control over the bass anyway and substantial DSP that should allow you some degree of room correction.

Does your DSM have a digital output, for an outboard dac, say?

 

[Pedro2]

Davedotco - the Majik DSM is a versatile creature with all manner of inputs and outputs. It has both Spdif and Toslink outputs for digital signals to outboards dacs etc. My only reservation about such a route would be the bypassing of both internal Linn DAC as well as the pre and power amps. Effectively, the Majik would become just a streamer. I know that its power amp is a possible weak area (although I have noted Cno's comments here about its ability to drive the KEF's well) but I think that the pre and DAC are both pretty good.

I suppose that the bypassing would all be worth it if the sound from the active PMCs were to give a better possible sound than any passive route at similar price levels. One other issue here; I plan to ultimately home audition any new speakers before parting with the cash. Might run into one or two problems here.....

 

[CnoEvil]

I know that its power amp is a possible weak area (although I have noted Cno's comments here about its ability to drive the KEF's well) but I think that the pre and DAC are both pretty good.

Do let me know how this goes.

FWIW. It's not even that it drives them well, it's just that together they imo produce a very dynamic and likable musical sound.......which was better than I'd got from Linn's own speakers, Regas and previous generation Kefs.....even the Refs sounded analytical when powered by the Klimax stuff.

If I was to venture an opinion as to why this is, it would be that the R Series are the opposide of "lean and dry" sounding ie. they have a smooth treble, a slightly golden midrange and a big bass, which is nicely offset by the clean and detailed sound of Linn's Class D amplification. This synergy goes all the way up to the Blades, which is hardly surprising.

 

[Pedro2]

One issue is puzzling me about the active pmc route. It's cabling; if I go for the unbalanced RCA option from the Majik, do 2 phono runs go to one speaker which then has a through to the second? Or do they each need a phono from the Majik which means one will need to be 4m long?
Unfortunately, the Majik does not have a balanced xlr output which is supposedly unaffected by longer runs.
I have read the blurb about the new active pmc's and they do appear to be somewhat special. The Twotwo.5 is a small studio monitor with DB1 like dimensions. Has anyone else come across them yet?
I will report back as my search rolls out. It may, however, take up to 12 months!

 

[davedotco]

One issue is puzzling me about the active pmc route. It's cabling; if I go for the unbalanced RCA option from the Majik, do 2 phono runs go to one speaker which then has a through to the second? Or do they each need a phono from the Majik which means one will need to be 4m long? Unfortunately, the Majik does not have a balanced xlr output which is supposedly unaffected by longer runs. I have read the blurb about the new active pmc's and they do appear to be somewhat special. The Twotwo.5 is a small studio monitor with DB1 like dimensions. Has anyone else come across them yet? I will report back as my search rolls out. It may, however, take up to 12 months!

Ok, Cards on the table here, the twoTwo.5s are new and pretty rare and I have not had the chance to hear them, I have been playing with some of the more compact pro style PMCs, mostly passive, with there own amplification.

These are very definitely 'niche' products and you need to be pretty sure of why you are buying them, I am familiar enough with PMC product to be pretty sure that they would suit me, but then I very much like the presentation of the better active/studio monitor setups.

Connections are straightforward, if somewhat unusual. In an ideal world you would use a studio digital interface to take the SPDIF output from your Majik and convert to AES/EBU, but these are not something you will find in a typical hi-fi dealer. If that is a bit daunting, use the standard unbalanced (phono) analogue input, another layer of digital conversion, so not 'purist' in the hi-fi sense, but at this level you should expect total transparancy from the electronics.

Products of this kind are very different from the usual 'voiced' and tuned hi-fi products at this kind of price level, their sheer transparancy takes a little getting used to and some find this level of 'honesty' difficult to come to terms with.

That said, if you find that you get on with this kind of presentation, then returning to conventional passive systems can be difficult, it is easy to see why some devotees say they prefer these kind of speakers, even in comparison to more expensive passive systems.

 

[Pedro2]

Thanks again Davedotco. I will not be rushing into any replacement soon. This speaker adventure will take some time! I also got a shock when checking out the price of the PMC TwoTwo.5 actives. They retail at around £2700 but this does not include VAT. Ouch! Takes the price well over £3000 and with stands, cables, it's looking pricey.

All the same, I'm looking forward to the search, the listening before any decision is made. Passive or active; I have no preconceived ideas or bias at this stage and will trust my ears. Sorry... I mean, I will trust my wife's ears!

 

[davedotco]

I know it is pretty difficult but do try and see if you can get to hear some decent active monitors, you will not find them in hi-fi stores so you need to look for pro audio dealers or music stores.

Any good quality monitor around £1500-2000 will give you an idea of whether they are for you or not, try Genelec, Quested, Adam S series or pretty much anything in that class. It should be obvious if the presentation is to your taste or not, if you like what you hear, investigate further.