Worst value for money hifi component you ever bought

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JoelSim:a.g.:JoelSim:
aliEnRIK:a.g.:Arcam CD192. I see that Arcam is a recurring theme on this thread! Why am I not surprised? What was so bad about it?

Yes, please tell...

Just about everything was wrong with it. Mind-numbingly boring with no deep bass or sparkly treble. Uninspiring build quality and to top it off "black" turned out to be grey. After trying really hard to like it I sent it back and a few months later I got a DacMagic which was miles and miles better for a fraction of the cost.

You must have had a duff one

Not according to the shop that I sent it back to. I really am not joking when I say it sounded rubbish and a DacMagic walked all over it.
 
a.g.:JoelSim:a.g.:JoelSim:
aliEnRIK:a.g.:Arcam CD192. I see that Arcam is a recurring theme on this thread! Why am I not surprised? What was so bad about it?

Yes, please tell...

Just about everything was wrong with it. Mind-numbingly boring with no deep bass or sparkly treble. Uninspiring build quality and to top it off "black" turned out to be grey. After trying really hard to like it I sent it back and a few months later I got a DacMagic which was miles and miles better for a fraction of the cost.

You must have had a duff one

ÿ

Not according to the shop that I sent it back to. I really am not joking when I say it sounded rubbish and a DacMagic walked all over it.

Must be a bad system mtach then because mine walked all over a Rega Apollo and a Cyrus XT I heard.

ÿ
 
JoelSim:Must be a bad system mtach then because mine walked all over a Rega Apollo and a Cyrus XT I heard.

JoelSim:You must have had a duff one

Sounds to me more like it was a bad match with the listener. It can happen.

We can't all like the same things.

Joel, I think Arcam (like Naim) are 'Marmite' brands. People get all very love/hate about them. I understand this first-hand having never liked my Naim amp/cd whenever I heard it at the dealer's. With my own speakers in my own home it finally came right but may not happen for others with different tastes.

a.g. had the CD192 at home for a long time and still didn't like it. Does not mean it is 'duff' or a system 'mismatch' just that the CD192 is not good for everyone who hears one.
 
chebby:
JoelSim:Must be a bad system mtach then because mine walked all over a Rega Apollo and a Cyrus XT I heard.

JoelSim:You must have had a duff one

Sounds to me more like it was a bad match with the listener. It can happen.

We can't all like the same things.

Joel, I think Arcam (like Naim) are 'Marmite' brands. People get all very love/hate about them. I understand this first-hand having never liked my Naim amp/cd whenever I heard it at the dealer's.ÿ With my own speakers in my own home it finally came right but may not happen for others with different tastes.

a.g. had the CD192 at home for a long time and still didn't like it. Does not mean it is 'duff' or a system 'mismatch' just that the CD192 is not good for everyone who hears one.ÿ

You're right Chebby. I heard a £14k Cyrus/MA system in Harrods a few months' back that sounded awful. Bright, uninvolving, and dare I say it cheap sounding.

ÿ
 
chebby:a.g. had the CD192 at home for a long time and still didn't like it. Does not mean it is 'duff' or a system 'mismatch' just that the CD192 is not good for everyone who hears one.

I would put it down to a system mismatch. I remember that the budget Denon tuner I was using at the time was better than it. In no way, by any stretch of the imagination did it even remotely sound as good as it should have done. And my system is very revealing and clinical when it comes to poor sources. Tht's why I like the DacMagic so much, because it's great.
 
JoelSim:Must be a bad system mtach then because mine walked all over a Rega Apollo and a Cyrus XT I heard.
A Cyrus XT is a CD transport, not a CDP.
 
For my sins I spend far too much time on hifi websites and really the opinion that Arcam from entry level to their "high end" stuff is uninvolving and dry is not a controversial one, I find it very easy to believe a Dacmagic would outperform even a realtively expensive Arcam cd player. Whenever I listen to Arcam products it feels like I want to take a blanket off the speakers.

High end Arcam products are hardly ever used by the sort of audio enthusiasts who use hifi websites but they obviously sell in good enough numbers. Maybe some people get used to their unobtrusive sound.
 
Ive used (And still do) a few Arcam products so im kinda intrigued by the negative feedback.

Up until xmas I was using an A85 amp and CD32 cd player. Id had the A85 since it first came out.

My theory is that Arcam design their systems to be used in 'perfect conditions' and in perfect conditions they work very well.

In example ~ for the first 3 years I used stock cable and no mains conditioning etc. The 'INSTANT' I fitted a second hand Isotek Elite mains cable to my amp it sounded better. Ive since fitted 16 core braided slid silver mains cables to my amps and copper to everything else. Everything runs through an Isotek Sigmas mains conditioner too. The difference of using stock to decent mains and conditioners with Arcam is staggering. So my theory is that Arcam simply dont use any (or very little) internal mains conditioning as they expect the users to use them in a decent setup.

At xmas I bought a P1000 power amp in place of the A85 and used a denon av amp as a pre (Which got replaced just yesterday with a Marantz AV8003 which sounds f**kin awesome). I recall the place I bought it off a guy had his P1000 for a week and HATED it. Sounded very bass light and 'tinny'. Well mine too sounded absolutely awful when I got it (with over 1k knocked off), but once it had a decent run in period and connected through my cables etc it REALLY sings.

My CD32 sounds very good too (Only since using the cables etc) so is everyone saying it would sound even better using an external DAC? And if so which would be a very good buy for upto 600 quid?
 
Not meaning to be deliberately difficult here but any system that lets you sit down for an intensive listening session for 5 hours is doing something wrong. Good music that asks you for concentration and attention exhausts you after a few hours.

And if Arcam components sound so much better with bought separately power cords then its a design fault. It would be very odd for a company to sell components that it expects to be used with power conditioners without ever mentioning it in the literature. I would be very surprised given that many other companies sell products roughly equivalent in price range to Arcam but for some reason don't expect their users to be using mains conditioners.
 
FolsomBlues:
Not meaning to be deliberately difficult here but any system that lets you sit down for an intensive listening session for 5 hours is doing something wrong. Good music that asks you for concentration and attention exhausts you after a few hours..

Interesting point.....on that basis I have no need to change my modest system because 2 -3 hours listening and I am cream crackered. I aint going to argue with your quote.....Its just what I find myself....
 
Pioneer A400x for me, could not get the sound i wanted from this amp, i tried a couple of pairs of speakers with this one (Mission 762i, Ruark Sceptre)and changed the cd player to Pioneer's own 505 Precision, bright, lightweight sound with hardly any bass extention to speak of (to me anyway), so i change to MF gear and never looked back.
 
On the subject of Arcam...

I have mixed opinions of the brand to be honest, but I think they do get a disproportionate amount of criticism which I find hard to understand.

I've had two Arcam systems (CD73 and A65+, and CD73 and A70). Both were 'entry level' for Arcam and neither lasted very long with me. The CD73 was actually a very fine CD player, but the two amps were, to be honest, very poor value for money. I've also auditioned the A18 and, although its a little better, I still think it represents poor value, particularly at its new £700 price point. You can buy much better for considerably less. On one occasion I did actually challenege Arcam about the performance of the A65+ and A70 amplifiers and the response was (paraphrased) 'Well they are our entry level products. You really need to spend more to get what you are looking for.' Not very impressive, particularly as that performance can be bettered by spending less with other brands (Cambridge Audio, Rotel, and NAD spring to mind).

However, as I alluded to before, the CD73 is one of the finest 'budget' (mid-range to me!) CD players ever made and was cracking value for money. The last of the Alpha line amps (8, 9 and 10) were superb and very musical, and the now discontinued FMJ A32 integrated was incredible at its price point, as indeed I believe the CD192 to be.

Overall, I prefer the more airy and rhythmic sound of Rega kit over Arcam and I certainly believe that the Brio 3 trounces the entry level Arcam amps for less outlay. But Arcam have produced some excellent kit and provide a great example of what can be achieved by a relatively small British company in a competitive market. I have great admiration for them.
 
a.g.:JoelSim:Must be a bad system mtach then because mine walked all over a Rega Apollo and a Cyrus XT I heard.A Cyrus XT is a CD transport, not a CDP.

Ok if you want me to get into detail, it was a CDXT with DAC and PSUs, with pre and power amps with PSUs, and MA Platinum speakers and I was horrified by the sound it made. ÿ
 
FolsomBlues:
Not meaning to be deliberately difficult here but any system that lets you sit down for an intensive listening session for 5 hours is doing something wrong. Good music that asks you for concentration and attention exhausts you after a few hours.

And if Arcam components sound so much better with bought separately power cordsÿthen its a design fault. It would be very odd for a company to sell components that it expects to be used with power conditioners without ever mentioning it in the literature. I would be very surprised given that many other companies sell products roughly equivalent in price range to Arcam but for some reason don't expect their users to be using mains conditioners.

lol, I couldn't disagree more with everything you say aboveÿ
 
FolsomBlues:
Not meaning to be deliberately difficult here but any system that lets you sit down for an intensive listening session for 5 hours is doing something wrong. Good music that asks you for concentration and attention exhausts you after a few hours.

And if Arcam components sound so much better with bought separately power cords then its a design fault. It would be very odd for a company to sell components that it expects to be used with power conditioners without ever mentioning it in the literature. I would be very surprised given that many other companies sell products roughly equivalent in price range to Arcam but for some reason don't expect their users to be using mains conditioners.

I didnt say they expect you to use a mains conditioner. Im saying they expect you to use a dedicated mains spur or whatever route you wish to go down to get a nice 'clean' mains signal. Aside from that, it doesnt matter if you have an entry level system or one in the 10s of thousands ~ a clean mains will help each and every one of them to a degree. Arcam have chosen to leave out dedicated filtration in their systems and supply cr*p mains leads as they really expect people to supply their own

And im sorry but a true 'hifi' sound should not be 'fatiguing' unless thats what the musician intended (or a very bad recording)
 
FolsomBlues:

Not meaning to be deliberately difficult here but any system that lets you sit down for an intensive listening session for 5 hours is doing something wrong. Good music that asks you for concentration and attention exhausts you after a few hours.

Hi FolsomBlues. you appear to be up for it, so I think that your commment is nonsensical drivel. You are clearly trying to be difficult and are imbibing hifi with powers that are not there. A 5 hour listening session is a joy if you are in the mood and to claim that a hifi which allows that is doing something wrong is rubbish. There is no correlation between good music and exhaustion.
 
I aint saying that what FolsomBlues wrote is right or wrong but I think three words in there will help explain his point.....Intensive, Concentration and Attention.

Its a matter of degree, do you just listen or intensly concentrate. If you do the latter medical evidence does tend to suggest that fatigue will set in a lot quicker than if you do the former.
 
That is something I have never experienced with music. Intensive concentration is without a doubt fatiguing, but with music? Really! That is why I took the view that FolsomBlues was imbibing hifi with something that is not there. If I really want to relax I tend to go for the likes of Sepultura as it is so intense I switch off, in a good way and chill. A day with 5 hours of music will be a good day, so today is going to be a good day and I will not be exhausted at the end of it.
 
I can see both points of view here.

I do think that quite a lot of hi-fi wraps music up in a fake sort of cotton wool, adding additional warmth and bass that just isn't there in the original performance. I can see the attraction, and I can see why some listeners would find this less tiring.

It also depends very much on what music you are listening to, and whether you are actively listening to it (and doing NOTHING else) or whether you are listening casually, or even just hearing it. There is a difference!! Some music, when you actively listen to it, is challenging and you can become tired after listening to it over an extended period. This can come from the music being emotionally draining, extremely complex, or challenging in terms of the sounds being created. I think a really good system should allow these challenges to come through and take their effect on the listener, because they are part of what the musician/composer intended.

After all, how many times do you come out of a concert feeling exhilirated, yet drained by the energy and sound of what you have been listening to?
 
I get the point now Matthew and FolsomBlues. This is something that has totally passed me by. I have come out of concerts exhilarated and drained, but more so after the likes of The Who when I have been standing at the front and so I put it down to my physicallity than the music.

P.S - whats with the new signature Matthew? It sounds as if something has gone wrong.
 
idc:
I get the point now Matthew and FolsomBlues. This is something that has totally passed me by. I have come out of concerts exhilarated and drained, but more so after the likes of The Who when I have been standing at the front and so I put it down to my physicallity than the music.

P.S - whats with the new signature Matthew? It sounds as if something has gone wrong.

It relates to two things really...

Firstly, I tried to take a break from the forums a couple of days ago and lasted a total of 3 hours before I was tempted back.

Secondly, I tried really hard to settle with the NAD/Quad amp/speaker combo but I got bored by it. Too much of that cotton wool I was talking about!! I've been having to push myself to find the enthusiasm to switch it on and listen. Consequently I've been trying quite a few different speakers on loan and I'm currently trying a different amp as well. I'm pretty sure I know what sound I want now and think I've found a good combination but I'm not going to speak too soon. 🙂
 
Firstly - there are much, much worse things to be adicted to than a forum! In any case I enjoy our chats and your comments too much for you to even be allowed to take a leave of absence!

Secondly - are you changing your kit again! What has happened to the Pioneer amp, the VDAC, the Squeezebox?
 
matthewpiano:Secondly, I tried really hard to settle with the NAD/Quad amp/speaker combo but I got bored by it. Too much of that cotton wool I was talking about!! I've been having to push myself to find the enthusiasm to switch it on and listen. Consequently I've been trying quite a few different speakers on loan and I'm currently trying a different amp as well. I'm pretty sure I know what sound I want now and think I've found a good combination but I'm not going to speak too soon. 🙂

Been there and you know what I did. (In my sig.)

matthewpiano:I tried to take a break from the forums a couple of days ago and lasted a total of 3 hours before I was tempted back.

Been there too. (Very recently and on a few occasions.) I managed a whole day from last Monday night -> Tuesday evening and spent the day gardening instead.

I work from home so the forum is always a temptation when things are q.... (I am working now so won't 'spook' things by using the q.... word.)
 
Not really a hifi component but the Sony MZ E10 Minidisc Walkman. A beautiful looking little player in brushed aluminium but the sound quality just didn't seem to match other MD players I've owned..it was a bit dull and used to make a buzzing noise between tracks!
http://www.amazon.com/Sony-MZ-E10-MD-Walkman/dp/B00008ZPN7

My all time favorite was my MZ E909 which is still going strong!!
http://www.ciao-shopping.nl/Sony_MZ_E_909__283061
 
idc:
Firstly - there are much, much worse things to be adicted to than a forum! In any case I enjoy our chats and your comments too much for you to even be allowed to take a leave of absence!

Secondly - are you changing your kit again! What has happened to the Pioneer amp, the VDAC, the Squeezebox?

The Pioneer went a while ago (and in between leaving here and reaching its buyer stopped working, which is another story). It was excellent but I didn't really want to rely on something that was nearly 20 years old, particularly as my kit gets heavily used.

The V-DAC is still very much here and is going nowhere. Its superb and I can't imagine a system without it now. If anything my latest experiments have shown me exactly how good it is. I also still have the Squeezebox, although I'm doing most of my listening from CD (CA 340c) through the V-DAC.

After the Pioneer I went back to a NAD C325BEE (which I've still got, sat in its box at the moment). I love that amp in many ways, but its suddenly sounded a bit muddy after the Pioneer and I've come to the conclusion that it does lack a little rhythmically. Combined with the Quad 11Ls (which can also sound a bit veiled and woolly) it was getting a bit yawn inducing.

So, I've tried some different speakers at home over the last few days - B&W 685s, Dali Ikon 1s, and Mordaunt-Short Mezzo 2s - and I've also been trying a different amplifier. I'm now pretty convinced that I've found the right combo but, as I say, I don't want to tempt fate too soon. Its high time I felt able to settle down for a while!!
 
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