Good point Robin,
You see this I understand - we can be fooled but we also accommodate instinctively.
2 boxes producing a 3d soundstage - a flat screen producing a 3d image (remember the old 3d cards back in the day)
Like I said, you're crossing a road you see a bus coming towards you ......
we adjust.....
You see this I understand - we can be fooled but we also accommodate instinctively.
2 boxes producing a 3d soundstage - a flat screen producing a 3d image (remember the old 3d cards back in the day)
Like I said, you're crossing a road you see a bus coming towards you ......
we adjust.....
RobinKidderminster said:
Oh I thought I had quoted your response Cheesboy
No worry's......
These summer holidays having to spend time with the kids...... bear with me.
No worry's......
These summer holidays having to spend time with the kids...... bear with me.
cheeseboy said:
Best thing about Hifi - Cables
Worst thing about Hifi - Cables.
Edit. Oops, seem to have taken a wrong turn.*fool*
Worst thing about Hifi - Cables.
Edit. Oops, seem to have taken a wrong turn.*fool*
Behaive Dave.....
Having a clue is over rated anyway.
Having a clue is over rated anyway.
davedotco said:cheeseboy said:Thompsonuxb said:
No need to, I think you've just proven my point as to how full of rubbish you are, thank you
Don't take him too seriously cheeseboy, think of him as a kind of unruly pet, like my cross siamese in the picture.
Hugely entertaining, quite bright in an odd sort of way but, when push comes to shove, hasn't got a clue.
I think I recall this tale.... Lol
If I recall I suggested you had fallen victim to peer pressure ( a need to fit in as opposed to telling the truth)
You did what most New starters would have done.
Probably nothing to do with what you heard.
If that's a lie, I must have dreamt it, but that's what I would have told you anyway.
If I recall I suggested you had fallen victim to peer pressure ( a need to fit in as opposed to telling the truth)
You did what most New starters would have done.
Probably nothing to do with what you heard.
If that's a lie, I must have dreamt it, but that's what I would have told you anyway.
andyjm said:
Thompsonuxb said:Behaive Dave.....
Having a clue is over rated anyway.
davedotco said:cheeseboy said:Thompsonuxb said:
No need to, I think you've just proven my point as to how full of rubbish you are, thank you
Don't take him too seriously cheeseboy, think of him as a kind of unruly pet, like my cross siamese in the picture.
Hugely entertaining, quite bright in an odd sort of way but, when push comes to shove, hasn't got a clue.
I was talking about my cat.
Anyway, she is great at blind tests. She can tell the chicken munchies (likes) from the beef munchies (doesn't like) even if I make sure she doesn't see the packs.
Unlike most on here she has taken a blind test and passed with flying colours......*dance4*
I see what you did there. ....... ok.... I had a real good retort for you aswell.
davedotco said:Thompsonuxb said:Behaive Dave.....
Having a clue is over rated anyway.
davedotco said:cheeseboy said:Thompsonuxb said:
No need to, I think you've just proven my point as to how full of rubbish you are, thank you
Don't take him too seriously cheeseboy, think of him as a kind of unruly pet, like my cross siamese in the picture.
Hugely entertaining, quite bright in an odd sort of way but, when push comes to shove, hasn't got a clue.
I was talking about my cat.?
Anyway, she is great at blind tests. She can tell the chicken munchies (likes) from the beef munchies (doesn't like) even if I make sure she doesn't see the packs.
Unlike most on here she has taken a blind test and passed with flying colours......*dance4*
Covenanter
Well-known member
I thought this was a new thread and got a bad case of deja vu!
Actually it's much more interesting now the "coke" theme has emerged. I'm a great lover of Diet Coke and am prety certain I can tell it apart from any other Coke. As for Pepsi that is completely different. Suggestion bias - what nonsense!
Chris
Actually it's much more interesting now the "coke" theme has emerged. I'm a great lover of Diet Coke and am prety certain I can tell it apart from any other Coke. As for Pepsi that is completely different. Suggestion bias - what nonsense!
Chris
Covenanter said:
I don't drink coke or any of its variants but I have taken part in blind wine tasting.
Not remotely surprised that I could barely tell one from another (when testing from the same region) but very surprised to see supposed experts floundering around trying to tell Premier Cru from last years house Claret.
I do recall a blind test of american whiskies once upon a time. Can't remember the results though.......*unknw* *biggrin*
matt49
Well-known member
davedotco said:
I take part in quite a lot of blind tastings of wine. I seem to have a mental block about some wines, but there are others that I find dead easy to pick, whether because they have a strong signature (Sauvignon blanc) or because I know a lot about them (German Riesling).
I know there have been some widely publicized cases of wine experts being duped in blind tastings (usually because they were being fed deliberately misleading information) and even the best tasters can get things wrong, but blind wine tasting really is something that can be learnt. There is, after all, a qualification (the Master of Wine degree) that contains practical exams in blind tasting. The MW is very demanding, has a strong international reputation and is audited to exacting standards.
The practical papers look like this: http://www.mastersofwine.org/en/education/the-mw-examination/the-practical-papers.cfm. If you don't pass them, you don't get the qualification.
Matt
Rethep
Well-known member
To me biwire is like 'buy more wire'.
Buy 4 mm2 thick copper wire, connect, sit back and enjoy the music!
Every other thing you don't like is a mismatch in your system or acoustics. Furthermore nothing is perfect!
Buy 4 mm2 thick copper wire, connect, sit back and enjoy the music!
Every other thing you don't like is a mismatch in your system or acoustics. Furthermore nothing is perfect!
Rethep
Well-known member
Rethep said:
Again!
If you listen long enough you can hear the difference between two exact the same things!
Example:
One evening i think my system sounds nearly perfect! I am totally taken by the music. Then again, i was in a very good mood too. The other evening with the same system and music, i think that it could sound much better, with another component. This time e.g. i got home from work very tired, thinking about all the workmails i have to answer the next day. So some psychological feelings (attention) is of big influence!
My advice again: sit back, listen, and enjoy!
matt49 said:
I'd disagree about the wine thing. There's been a lot of studies done (a nice concise roundup here http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-science-analysis ) that basically shows that wine tasting is just as subjective as anything else, and the tasters can be fooled very easily. The one where they put red dye in white wine and all of a sudden the tasters are coming out with completely different tastes, even though it's exactly the same wine, speaks volumes I feel. (taken from the article above)
"Colour affects our perceptions too. In 2001 Frédérick Brochet of the University of Bordeaux asked 54 wine experts to test two glasses of wine – one red, one white. Using the typical language of tasters, the panel described the red as "jammy' and commented on its crushed red fruit.
The critics failed to spot that both wines were from the same bottle. The only difference was that one had been coloured red with a flavourless dye."
If you like the taste of the wine, drink it and enjoy it, that's what I say
matt49
Well-known member
cheeseboy said:matt49 said:
I'd disagree about the wine thing. There's been a lot of studies done (a nice concise roundup here http://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jun/23/wine-tasting-junk-sc... ) that basically shows that wine tasting is just as subjective as anything else, and the tasters can be fooled very easily. The one where they put red dye in white wine and all of a sudden the tasters are coming out with completely different tastes, even though it's exactly the same wine, speaks volumes I feel. (taken from the article above)
"Colour affects our perceptions too. In 2001 Frédérick Brochet of the University of Bordeaux asked 54 wine experts to test two glasses of wine – one red, one white. Using the typical language of tasters, the panel described the red as "jammy' and commented on its crushed red fruit.
The critics failed to spot that both wines were from the same bottle. The only difference was that one had been coloured red with a flavourless dye."
If you like the taste of the wine, drink it and enjoy it, that's what I say
Yes, but see my post above, especially the bit where I talk about people being confused by "being fed deliberately misleading information". The test with the dye is an extreme situation and not a fair blind test. Wine tasters take blind tests in good faith and assume they're not being deliberately tricked. If they'd been told "we may have dyed one of the white wines so that you think it's red", the results would have been quite different.
The "scientific" vs "subjective" thing in the Guardian article addresses a different point from the one I was making. My question was: can you improve your ability to identify wine correctly in blind tastings? The evidence is very clear: you can. (In fact, some of the comments in the article make precisely this point, e.g. where it says that trained experts were better than laymen at identifying expensive wines.)
Covenanter
Well-known member
On the radio this morning I heard that blind tastings of lager showed that people could not tell the difference between the various brands, premium or otherwise.
As for wine, well I think I can tell most varieties apart and also regions and have done so at blind tastings. That's the limit of my ability though.
Chris
As for wine, well I think I can tell most varieties apart and also regions and have done so at blind tastings. That's the limit of my ability though.
Chris
chebby
Well-known member
I love the wine 'experts' (read middle-class lushes) that they drag onto food & drink programmes (once they've been sobred up a bit backstage).
All those references to the smells of hot tar, baby wipes, oak, wet labradors (after a walk in Tuscan rain of course), custard, bonfires etc. are pure comedy gold. (Only bettered by those episodes dedicated to 'cooking on a budget' where we are told that truffle slivers really perk up scrambled eggs!)
This series has all you need to know about food and drink.
It's all b#####ks anyway.
All those references to the smells of hot tar, baby wipes, oak, wet labradors (after a walk in Tuscan rain of course), custard, bonfires etc. are pure comedy gold. (Only bettered by those episodes dedicated to 'cooking on a budget' where we are told that truffle slivers really perk up scrambled eggs!)
This series has all you need to know about food and drink.
It's all b#####ks anyway.
The question is, what are you tasting and recognising that makes the difference?
It is not heard to taste differences and express views as a layman, my local restaurant sustituded a better wine for my 'usual' which was sold out. It was immediately obvious without seeing the bottle or knowing of the change.
But tasting between different vintages or wineries is much more difficult, do the 'professionals' learn certain clues, perhaps in the same way that some folks listen for specific artifacts in mp3 recordings?
I have had these artifacts demonstrated to me, they are easy enough to hear if you are listening specifically for them but does it change your perception of the music? I wonder if something similar applys to wine tasting, the professional tasting and 'looking' for clues, the amateur thinking 'thats a nice drop', how about another glass.....!
It is not heard to taste differences and express views as a layman, my local restaurant sustituded a better wine for my 'usual' which was sold out. It was immediately obvious without seeing the bottle or knowing of the change.
But tasting between different vintages or wineries is much more difficult, do the 'professionals' learn certain clues, perhaps in the same way that some folks listen for specific artifacts in mp3 recordings?
I have had these artifacts demonstrated to me, they are easy enough to hear if you are listening specifically for them but does it change your perception of the music? I wonder if something similar applys to wine tasting, the professional tasting and 'looking' for clues, the amateur thinking 'thats a nice drop', how about another glass.....!
matt49 said:
on the contrary, if somebody is going to proclaim themselves an expert in something, such as wine tasting, yet can be fooled by something simple like a red dye, it calls in to question the creedence with which they consider themselves an expert. Surely if it's about the taste, then the colour doesn't matter, but again, it just goes to show how interlinked our senses are, how easily they can be fooled and how subjective it all is. Putting dye in a wine is a perfectly fair way to show up the inconsistancies of wine tasters and some of the rubbish they come out with.
matt49 said:
to a certain degree, yes, but again, other tests pretty much blow that thoery out of the water. Also, just because it's expensive, doesn't mean it's going to taste any good
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn never say all wines taste the same etc, I just think that it's another one of those areas that's created it's own mythos, snobbery and self appionted experts, which when put the test, tend to fall at the first hurdle.
I've done a few wine tasting evening myself and suchlike and do enjoy a nice glass, but I'm not for one minute going to turn my nose up at 5 quid bottle of wine because it's not from x vinyard or y year etc, just as *some* (please note the word some there
) wine people would do.I agree with cheesboy on this fork of the thread.
Not a drinker of wines, spirits, beers or ciders beyond every now and then and prefer a coke with my meals.
Not a drinker of wines, spirits, beers or ciders beyond every now and then and prefer a coke with my meals.
chebby
Well-known member
Virtually all of the wine consumed nowadays gets transported around the world in 24,000 litre plastic bags (or 'bladders') that are also used for water, herbicides and paint.
It gets bottled at plants in the destination countries (a vast factory in Avonmouth in our case) where they put on all the various labels evoking pretty, rustic vineyards or majestic chateaux to fool the punter into thinking their wine has some history or 'terroir' that they can bang on about. (Wrong, it came from an automated, computerised industrial complex resembling a chemical plant.)
It gets bottled at plants in the destination countries (a vast factory in Avonmouth in our case) where they put on all the various labels evoking pretty, rustic vineyards or majestic chateaux to fool the punter into thinking their wine has some history or 'terroir' that they can bang on about. (Wrong, it came from an automated, computerised industrial complex resembling a chemical plant.)
matt49
Well-known member
cheeseboy said:
Th problem with the dye test is that it's not clear what it's testing: is it really testing people's ability to discriminate in blind tastings or is it testing how likely they are to believe what people in authority tell them? If it's designed to do the former, it's a spectacularly badly designed test.
cheeseboy said:to a certain degree, yes, but again, other tests pretty much blow that thoery out of the water. Also, just because it's expensive, doesn't mean it's going to taste any good
Don't get me wrong, I wouldn never say all wines taste the same etc, I just think that it's another one of those areas that's created it's own mythos, snobbery and self appionted experts, which when put the test, tend to fall at the first hurdle.
I've done a few wine tasting evening myself and suchlike and do enjoy a nice glass, but I'm not for one minute going to turn my nose up at 5 quid bottle of wine because it's not from x vinyard or y year etc, just as *some* (please note the word some there
You'll notice that I didn't say anything about the cost of wine, which I agree is a fraught subject, though rather less fraught, I think, than the cost of hi-fi equipment. Fine wine is a larger business by many orders of magnitude, and it operates more like a mature market. However, it's a market containing quite a lot of people who buy on reputation rather than quality.
What I was talking about is people's ability to, say, distinguish a Sauvignon blanc from a Riesling in a blind tasting. That can be learned very easily. I can do it with a pretty high degree of reliability, but then it is one of the easiest tests.
davedotco said:
Yes, that's it exactly. There are cues that you learn to pick up. For instance, Sauvignon blanc almost always has a grassy aroma that's a real giveaway. Aged Riesling can easily be identified by a petrolly aroma.
Different vintages can also have giveaway signatures: 1990 and 2003 were standout examples in Bordeaux. In the former you get lots of roast coffee aromas. The latter are super-ripe but often spikily tannic.
At this point of course someone will throw up their hands and say "all that talk of grass and petrol" is a sure sign of bullsh*t. Well, it's not. It's what the wines really smell/taste like.
If you take the MW blind tasting exam, you have to write an account of how you came to your decisions, a bit like showing your workings in a maths exam. You have to comment on things like acidity, sweetness, alcoholic strength, tannic structure etc -- and of course the colour of the wine, which can be a very helpful indicator of grape variety and vintage. (You should be able to tell which is which out of a Santenay and an Aussie Shiraz simply by the colour.)
matt49
Well-known member
chebby said:
Would you care to put a number on that?
It's certainly true that a lot of wine at the bottom end of the market is shipped in bulk and bottled at destination. It used to be the case at the top end of the market too. The UK wine merchants (Avery's, Berry Bros et al) would do their own bottlings of smart French addresses, and they had a good reputation. But these days I think you'd be hard pushed to find much wine over £10/bottle that isn't estate bottled.
matt49
Well-known member
chebby said:matt49 said:
No, but don't worry, it'll catch up with the small percentage of posh stuff too
They simply won't be able to ignore the economics of it. Imagine the cost of shipping the weight of 32,000 empty bottles (and the cases) compared to shipping the weight of a big plastic bag.
(24,000 litres is about 32,000 bottles I think.)
It'll be like the creep of Chinese manufacture into high-end audio. Even the most 'snobby' manufacturers / brands can't hold out forever.
Besides, give it a few more years and all of the subtle, nuanced and quirky qualities of any wine (no matter how expensive or old) will be nailed by wine tasters working with chemists and a battery of taste additives. So the most elusive bouquets and flavours will be programmed precisely and scientifically for anyone to enjoy for a fiver.
Ah, gotcha. Sorry, I thought for a moment you were being serious.
chebby
Well-known member
matt49 said:
No, but don't worry, it'll catch up with the small percentage of posh stuff too
They simply won't be able to ignore the economics of it. Imagine the cost of shipping the weight of 32,000 empty bottles (and the cases) compared to shipping the weight of a big plastic bag. There is also the space it all takes up. Bottles have a lot of air around them - because they are round - and the volume of space they take up costs money too. Far better and cheaper to bottle it a few miles from a port (like Avonmouth) at the destination country.
(24,000 litres is about 32,000 bottles I think.)
It'll be like the creep of Chinese manufacture into high-end audio. Even the most 'snobby' manufacturers / brands can't hold out forever.
Besides, give it a few more years and all of the subtle, nuanced and quirky qualities of any wine (no matter how expensive or old) will be nailed by wine tasters working with chemists and a battery of taste additives. So the most elusive bouquets and flavours will be programmed precisely and scientifically for anyone to enjoy for a fiver.
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