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Wiring, Nordost or Audioquest way?

Page 3 - Seeking answers? Join the What HiFi community: the world's leading independent guide to buying and owning hi-fi and home entertainment products.

nopiano

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2009
174
53
18,670
Welcome, Latinaudio. I for one am happy your changes made the difference you wanted, even if it is hard to rationalise.

There was recently an interesting TV programme about placebo drug trials where, untypically, the recipients were told they were getting the placebo, but they still reported 'cures' in some cases. Amazing but true!
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
nopiano said:
Welcome, Latinaudio. I for one am happy your changes made the difference you wanted, even if it is hard to rationalise.

There was recently an interesting TV programme about placebo drug trials where, untypically, the recipients were told they were getting the placebo, but they still reported 'cures' in some cases. Amazing but true!
The mind is a seriously strange thing and it affects hi-fi more than you may imagine. For example....

Over the years I have always followed the 'audiophile rule' of having both speaker cables the same length.

I was always convinced that if this was not the case the soundstage would slip to one side, in my setup the equipment was to one side, so 3m to the near speaker and 6m to the far. The image was always skewed to one side, changing to two 6m lengths solved everything.

These beliefs were challenged by a colleague who set up a blind test, using 3m and 7m cables. I could hear no difference whatsoever. This was repeated a number of times until I was totally convinced that it made no difference.

I took home the cables we used in the tests, using uneven lengths the soundstage was, as usual, skewed to one side, same length cables, absolutely fine.

So, despite it being 'proved' that the length makes no difference, if I know there is a difference in length I hear a problem, so, although I know it is nonsense, I will always use speaker cables thart are the same length.....*unknw*
 

hifikrazy

New member
Aug 9, 2007
23
0
0
pauln said:
hifikrazy said:
And I thought the one good of the site redesign was to get rid of this bunch of *censored*, which has at least made this forum a lot more pleasant lately. But alas, no.... It only takes one post about cables to get them crawling out of the sewers again.
You come across as a really unpleasant person. You would have fiitted in pretty well with the Spanish inquisition, they burnt people that didn't agree with their way of thinking as far as I recall.

Hey ho, takes all sorts to make a world.
Hypocrite. (to borrow the post by one of your pack members earlier in this thread).

It seems to be a lot more like the Spanish inquisition when you and the rest of your pack gang up to attack those who don't agree with your way of thinking. I guess **** doesn't stink when it comes out of your own ass. (Fancy that, these two words aren't blocked)
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.

davedotco said:
nopiano said:
Welcome, Latinaudio. I for one am happy your changes made the difference you wanted, even if it is hard to rationalise.?

There was recently an interesting TV programme about placebo drug trials where, untypically, the recipients were told they were getting the placebo, but they still reported 'cures' in some cases. Amazing but true!
The mind is a seriously strange thing and it affects hi-fi more than you may imagine. For example....

Over the years I have always followed the 'audiophile rule' of having both speaker cables the same length.

I was always convinced that if this was not the case the soundstage would slip to one side, in my setup the equipment was to one side, so 3m to the near speaker and 6m to the far. The image was always skewed to one side, changing to two 6m lengths solved everything.

These beliefs were challenged by a colleague who set up a blind test, using 3m and 7m cables. I could hear no difference whatsoever. This was repeated a number of times until I was totally convinced that it made no difference.

I took home the cables we used in the tests, using uneven lengths the soundstage was, as usual, skewed to one side, same length cables, absolutely fine.

So, despite it being 'proved' that the length makes no difference, if I know there is a difference in length I hear a problem, so, although I know it is nonsense, I will always use speaker cables thart are the same length.....*unknw*

 
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.
I think, could be wrong, the point dave was trying to make was that when he couldn't see the difference, he didn't hear any dfference, however, when he hooked the cables up himself his brain skewed the sound. It's a direct example of subjective bias and shows how powerful the brain is at changing things when it want's to believe it / and / or sight is involved.

Have a look at this little article here - doesn't matter it's about coke, the premis is the same :) http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/cola-brains/
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.
No need, I have done the test at home too, if I know there are unequal lengths involved the soundstage is skewed, if I do not, it is fine. Just 'knowing' makes the difference.

Similarly with Spotify. I prefer a wired conection over Airplay, hoping eventually to go with Spotify Connect so I can be fully wired. A/B testing Airplay vs optical shows no percievable difference, but I still want fully wired.

Crazy eh......*unknw*
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.
I think, could be wrong, the point dave was trying to make was that when he couldn't see the difference, he didn't hear any dfference, however, when he hooked the cables up himself his brain skewed the sound. It's a direct example of subjective bias and shows how powerful the brain is at changing things when it want's to believe it / and / or sight is involved.

Have a look at this little article here - doesn't matter it's about coke, the premis is the same :) http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/cola-brains/
The real killer is that even though you know there is no difference and you are being tricked, there is absolutely nothing you can do about it...!
 

RobinKidderminster

New member
May 27, 2009
582
0
0
Great examples of expectation bias etc. At the end of the day, our brains do what they want with our rational common sense. Thanks for some nice thoughts
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
Lol....

The reason thats fascinating in many cases when folk claim they hear no differences, when a cable/ link is swapped out and no differences are heard the non believer will revert back to their preferred/ original cable if given that option.

Why?

Personally me thinks it's denial - differences are 'audible' how ever slight and people do have preferences.

Emperors new cloths from both sides of this debate has someone suggested above.

But that's just how I see it.

davedotco said:
Thompsonuxb said:
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.
No need, I have done the test at home too, if I know there are unequal lengths involved the soundstage is skewed, if I do not, it is fine. Just 'knowing' makes the difference.

Similarly with Spotify. I prefer a wired conection over Airplay, hoping eventually to go with Spotify Connect so I can be fully wired. A/B testing Airplay vs optical shows no percievable difference, but I still want fully wired.

Crazy eh......*unknw*
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
I have to admit Robin unless drugged or highly stressed I struggle with that view that we are so easily fooled on a day to day basis.

We are our brain.

Something as simple as listening to music reproduction.

I dunno.

RobinKidderminster said:
Great examples of expectation bias etc. At the end of the day, our brains do what they want with our rational common sense. Thanks for some nice thoughts
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
Read that link cheesboy.... Sorry but I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi - they taste different.

Matters not whats on the can - it's like if you go to some out of town McDonald's you can tell when the cokes been watered down or a no brand is being used. Well I can anyway.

Preference.

cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
wow , that's interesting.

Question, have you had the person who did the test come round and have a listen Dave?

Ans what's the difference between equipment used?

I too belong to the equal length religion.
?

I think, could be wrong, the point dave was trying to make was that when he couldn't see the difference, he didn't hear any dfference, however, when he hooked the cables up himself his brain skewed the sound.  It's a direct example of subjective bias and shows how powerful the brain is at changing things when it want's to believe it / and / or sight is involved.

?

Have a look at this little article here - doesn't matter it's about coke, the premis is the same :) http://sciencenetlinks.com/science-news/science-updates/cola-brains/

 
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
Read that link cheesboy.... Sorry but I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi - they taste different.

Matters not whats on the can - it's like if you go to some out of town McDonald's you can tell when the cokes been watered down or a no brand is being used. Well I can anyway.

Preference.
ok, so let me get this right..... Somebody conducts a controlled scientific experiment. They even use brain scans to prove that the brain changes due to what is on the can and the best you can come up with is that you don't believe it because you can tell the difference, even though you weren't part of the experiment, have no inclination of being in or reproducing the experiment and thusly dismiss something out of hand because *you say so*..... So basically what you are saying is that it doesn't matter how much evidence you are presented with and if needs be slapped around the face with, if you don't want to believe it then it isn't true? And this doesn't even have anything to do with hifi....

And people wonder why people get so worked up when somebody presents a reasonable side of an argument, with evidence or whatever and you just go "meh, don't beleive it" because it doesn't fit in with your view?
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Robin unless drugged or highly stressed I struggle with that view that we are so easily fooled on a day to day basis.
you put waaaaaay too much credence in your own beliefs and way too much reliance on what you percieve to be "correct". And again, I'm not even talking hifi now, I'm just talking about life in general.
 

Craig M.

New member
Mar 20, 2008
127
0
0
The claims of the cable brigade make me laugh. Not one of you could prove your claims in a blind test, not one of you. I wonder why that is.
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
If you are talking in general I agree with you.

How is anyone going to spend the best part of their day second guessing themselves.

I mean how would you survive. All our sensory triggers are processed in an instant, we make life affecting judgements based on them.

And you guys suggest we should not trust them ,doubt ourselves, 'because' they cannot be trusted.

Millions of years of evolution and we have become so smart we''ve become stupid?.

You hear, smell, feel or see something it's not real because!?......hilarious.

You guys have gone so far leftfield or is that rightfield to defend a stance till your argument is ridiculous.

Consider crossing a road - a bus is coming...... Lol

cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Robin unless drugged or highly stressed I struggle with that view that we are so easily fooled on a day to day basis.
you put waaaaaay too much credence in your own beliefs and way too much reliance on what you percieve to be "correct".  And again, I'm not even talking hifi now, I'm just talking about life in general.

 
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
I would take that challenge - name a time and a place.

As long as we have a quality system.

We can even try the pretending to swap a cable test.....lol

Craig M. said:
The claims of the cable brigade make me laugh.  Not one of you could prove your claims in a blind test, not one of you.  I wonder why that is.
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
If you are talking in general I agree with you.

How is anyone going to spend the best part of their day second guessing themselves.

I mean how would you survive. All our sensory triggers are processed in an instant, we make life affecting judgements based on them.

And you guys suggest we should not trust them ,doubt ourselves, 'because' they cannot be trusted.
no we don't. We're just saying that our senses can be fooled, and by and large, they are regularly on a daily basis. It's up to you what you do with them. Nobody is going to spend the best of part of the day second guessing themselves, so please stop making up things that people have not said. You are not immune to these things, they happen to everybody and a lot of them can be explained and replicated.

Thompsonuxb said:
Millions of years of evolution and we have become so smart we''ve become stupid?.
speak for yourself ;)

Thompsonuxb said:
You hear, smell, feel or see something it's not real because!?......hilarious.
y'see, making statements like that just makes you look stupid. It's possible to hear things that are not there. It's possible to smell things that are not there and also feel thing that are not there.

Thompsonuxb said:
You guys have gone so far leftfield or is that rightfield to defend a stance till your argument is ridiculous.
would you care to explain or explain, or are you just going to carry on as is? there's nothing leftfield about anything that's been posted. the only thing that's been leftfield so far is your complete pick and choose attitude to what you want to believe to back up your own beliefs.
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
I swear....... I don't know if you are being serious or just doing that fake hissyfit thing for comic affect.

But it made me chuckle.

Sorry, I will not indulge you........lol

cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
If you are talking in general I agree with you.

How is anyone going to spend the best part of their day second guessing themselves.

I mean how would you survive. All our sensory triggers are processed in an instant, we make life affecting judgements based on them.

And you guys suggest we should not trust them ,doubt ourselves, 'because' they cannot be trusted.
no we don't.  We're just saying that our senses can be fooled, and by and large, they are regularly on a daily basis.  It's up to you what you do with them.  Nobody is going to spend the best of part of the day second guessing themselves, so please stop making up things that people have not said.   You are not immune to these things, they happen to everybody and a lot of them can be explained and replicated.

Thompsonuxb said:
Millions of years of evolution and we have become so smart we''ve become stupid?.
speak for yourself ;)

Thompsonuxb said:
You hear, smell, feel or see something it's not real because!?......hilarious.
y'see, making statements like that just makes you look stupid.  It's possible to hear things that are not there.  It's possible to smell things that are not there and also feel thing that are not there.?

Thompsonuxb said:
You guys have gone so far leftfield or is that rightfield to defend a stance till your argument is ridiculous.
would you care to explain or explain, or are you just going to carry on as is?  there's nothing leftfield about anything that's been posted.  the only thing that's been leftfield so far is your complete pick and choose attitude to what you want to believe to back up your own beliefs.
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
I swear....... I don't know if you are being serious or just doing that fake hissyfit thing for comic affect.

But it made me chuckle.

Sorry, I will not indulge you........lol
No need to, I think you've just proven my point as to how full of rubbish you are, thank you :)
 

RobinKidderminster

New member
May 27, 2009
582
0
0
Optical illusions and sound illusions - guess some can see through them. As usual this thread has lost reason. Our senses are easily fooled - it is only within the context of listening to music where opinion is divided.
 

davedotco

New member
Apr 24, 2013
20
0
0
cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
I swear....... I don't know if you are being serious or just doing that fake hissyfit thing for comic affect.

But it made me chuckle.

Sorry, I will not indulge you........lol
No need to, I think you've just proven my point as to how full of rubbish you are, thank you :)
Don't take him too seriously cheeseboy, think of him as a kind of unruly pet, like my cross siamese in the picture.

Hugely entertaining, quite bright in an odd sort of way but, when push comes to shove, hasn't got a clue.
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
246
0
0
davedotco said:
Don't take him too seriously cheeseboy, think of him as a kind of unruly pet, like my cross siamese in the picture.

Hugely entertaining, quite bright in an odd sort of way but, when push comes to shove, hasn't got a clue.
fair enough, think I've just learned that :)
 

andyjm

New member
Jul 20, 2012
15
0
0
Thompsonuxb said:
I have to admit Robin unless drugged or highly stressed I struggle with that view that we are so easily fooled on a day to day basis.

We are our brain.

Something as simple as listening to music reproduction.

I dunno.
I have told this story a number of times, but for those who haven't read it yet:

As a newly minted EE graduate in my early 20s, I joined the research and designs group of a well known broadcaster. In the lab next to me, a bunch of guys were working on loudspeaker evaluation. Knowing I was interested in HiFi, they volunteered to demonstrate the various test speakers they had been working on. They took me through a demonstration, changing the speakers and explaining the faults and attributes of each speaker in turn. I felt pretty good, I could follow their description, and clearly hear all the points that they described. Except they never changed the speaker, it was always the same one.

It was a good lesson. Your senses are easily fooled. Never trust your ears.
 

Thompsonuxb

New member
Feb 19, 2012
129
0
0
Lol.... I missed this one.....

Did you read it?

You put your faith in internet articles.

When coke and Pepsi taste so different?

You crack me up

cheeseboy said:
Thompsonuxb said:
Read that link cheesboy.... Sorry but I can tell the difference between Coke and Pepsi - they taste different.

Matters not whats on the can - it's like if you go to some out of town McDonald's you can tell when the cokes been watered down or a no brand is being used. Well I can anyway.

Preference.
ok, so let me get this right.....  Somebody conducts a controlled scientific experiment.  They even use brain scans to prove that the brain changes due to what is on the can and the best you can come up with is that you don't believe it because you can tell the difference, even though you weren't part of the experiment, have no inclination of being in or reproducing the experiment and thusly dismiss something out of hand because *you say so*.....  So basically what you are saying is that it doesn't matter how much evidence you are presented with and if needs be slapped around the face with, if you don't want to believe it then it isn't true?  And this doesn't even have anything to do with hifi....

And people wonder why people get so worked up when somebody presents a reasonable side of an argument, with evidence or whatever and you just go "meh, don't beleive it" because it doesn't fit in with your view?

 
 

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