Windows vs Linux

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daveh75

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2008
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insider9 said:
daveh75 said:
insider9 said:
daveh75 said:
insider9 said:
Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?
I think you're just reaching now and just looking for problems where none exist. Any competently designed DAC will do as good a job as any other.

The gains are little to non existent in the digital domain AFAIAC.

Just look at how well something as cheap as the Chromecast Audio or Raspi + DAC HAT performs (and measurably so)
Both of which have a light and purpose specific software.
Not really.

Are you suggesting a Raspis running Rune, Volumio,, piCorePlayer etc sound better than one running Rasbian, Arch, Ubuntu etc?
No, as no experience with Pi and other distros. But I'm suggesting if there is indeed a difference between Windows and Linux then you'd be able to replicate it on Rasp Pi or any other hardware.
Again bit perfect is bit perfect.
 

cheeseboy

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Jul 17, 2012
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insider9 said:
I'm trying to understand. I might even get another SSD so I can dual boot and take acoustic measures under both Windows and then Linux.
You don't need to, you can run windows from a usb if you want to - https://www.pcmag.com/article/352209/how-to-run-windows-10-from-a-usb-drive
 

cheeseboy

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Jul 17, 2012
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insider9 said:
There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?
i don't understand what you are saying here. It's still a digital signal in the realm of binary, there's no analogue waveform being transmitted. Data can be transmitted lots of ways. You can convert data to audio, to text, to light for example, and providing the receiving end knows what to do with it, it will reform it as the data that was sent. If there are any problems with the data, it will be corrupt. It won't make things granular. Just to clarify, it's still digital until it leaves the DAC, not the computer. The clue is in the name.

If you'd like a demo, I'd be more than happy to show/explain.
 

ellisdj

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Dec 11, 2008
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the ps audio firmware upgrades are decided via listening tests the hardware is the same. they are also free so pretty pointless if it's a false claim with the option to use whatever one you want so you can compare and choose.

they sound marked different.

there is no way any measurment they can take of that dac will change based on the firmware code - it's the code itself that makes the difference in sound quality and they are very open about this.
 

insider9

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Sep 20, 2016
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cheeseboy said:
insider9 said:
There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?
i don't understand what you are saying here.  It's still a digital signal in the realm of binary, there's no analogue waveform being transmitted.  Data can be transmitted lots of ways.  You can convert data to audio, to text, to light for example,  and providing the receiving end knows what to do with it, it will reform it as the data that was sent. If there are any problems with the data, it will be corrupt.  It won't make things granular. Just to clarify, it's still digital until it leaves the DAC, not the computer.  The clue is in the name.

 

If you'd like a demo, I'd be more than happy to show/explain.
In that case please tell me how do you think a cable transmits bits? Transmission isn't digital. It's fully analogue but of a digital signal. There's is no data in the cable just electricity.

Please explain to me and only then you will understand. What is happening when a 1 is being sent and when a 0 is being sent. What actually happens?

It's great to look down on people and say things like "the clue is in the name" when you start from admission that you don't understand what I said in the first place.
 

daveh75

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2008
606
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insider9 said:
Saying software doesn't have impact on hardware makes little sense to me. Surely if this was the case many devices wouldn't need additional driver under Windows.
Simply because Class 2 USB audio drivers are baked in at the Kernel level in Linux (macOS too) whereas Windows doesn't or at least didn't support Class 2 out the box.
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
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I've spent a considerable period of time, investigating options for a digital front end. And unless all the millions of Americans are dumb, the operating system, the audio player being used, USB cable and yes even still points for their dac make a difference :)
 

daveh75

Well-known member
Jul 31, 2008
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So no actual objective evidence then?

And they elected a corrupt,, bigotted, deluded liar and sexual predator to the White House, invented Creationism, Scientology, love a conspiracy theory, think the world is flat and the answer to preventing more of their children becoming victims of mass shootings is more guns...
 

newlash09

Well-known member
Aug 28, 2015
219
45
10,820
daveh75 said:
So no actual objective evidence then?

And they elected a corrupt,, bigotted, deluded liar and sexual predator to the White House, invented Creationism, Scientology, love a conspiracy theory, think the world is flat and the answer to preventing more of their children becoming victims of mass shootings is more guns...
Everything you have said above. And I'd still like to think, that every American audiophile voted for the Democrats :)
 

abacus

Well-known member
Sep 24, 2008
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ellisdj said:
the ps audio firmware upgrades are decided via listening tests the hardware is the same. they are also free so pretty pointless if it's a false claim with the option to use whatever one you want so you can compare and choose.

they sound marked different.

there is no way any measurment they can take of that dac will change based on the firmware code - it's the code itself that makes the difference in sound quality and they are very open about this.
Changing the code changes the output (See my previous post) which as it is analogue means the changes can be measured. (If you don’t believe me email Paul at PS Audio and he will tell you the same)

Bill
 

BigH

New member
Dec 29, 2012
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0
insider9 said:
cheeseboy said:
insider9 said:
There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?
i don't understand what you are saying here. It's still a digital signal in the realm of binary, there's no analogue waveform being transmitted. Data can be transmitted lots of ways. You can convert data to audio, to text, to light for example, and providing the receiving end knows what to do with it, it will reform it as the data that was sent. If there are any problems with the data, it will be corrupt. It won't make things granular. Just to clarify, it's still digital until it leaves the DAC, not the computer. The clue is in the name.

If you'd like a demo, I'd be more than happy to show/explain.
In that case please tell me how do you think a cable transmits bits? Transmission isn't digital. It's fully analogue but of a digital signal. There's is no data in the cable just electricity.

Please explain to me and only then you will understand. What is happening when a 1 is being sent and when a 0 is being sent. What actually happens?

It's great to look down on people and say things like "the clue is in the name" when you start from admission that you don't understand what I said in the first place.
How can it be analogue if it has not reached the DAC yet?
 

insider9

Well-known member
Sep 20, 2016
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12,070
BigH said:
insider9 said:
cheeseboy said:
insider9 said:
There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?
i don't understand what you are saying here.  It's still a digital signal in the realm of binary, there's no analogue waveform being transmitted.  Data can be transmitted lots of ways.  You can convert data to audio, to text, to light for example,  and providing the receiving end knows what to do with it, it will reform it as the data that was sent. If there are any problems with the data, it will be corrupt.  It won't make things granular. Just to clarify, it's still digital until it leaves the DAC, not the computer.  The clue is in the name.

 

If you'd like a demo, I'd be more than happy to show/explain.
In that case please tell me how do you think a cable transmits bits? Transmission isn't digital. It's fully analogue but of a digital signal. There's is no data in the cable just electricity.

Please explain to me and only then you will understand. What is happening when a 1 is being sent and when a 0 is being sent. What actually happens?

It's great to look down on people and say things like "the clue is in the name" when you start from admission that you don't understand what I said in the first place.
How can it be analogue if it has not reached the DAC yet?
Re-read my comment

"Transmission isn't digital. It's fully analogue but of a digital signal."

And over to you... same question to you then if you don't mind.

Please explain... What is happening when a 1 is being sent and when a 0 is being sent. What actually happens?
 

ellisdj

New member
Dec 11, 2008
377
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abacus said:
ellisdj said:
the ps audio firmware upgrades are decided via listening tests the hardware is the same. they are also free so pretty pointless if it's a false claim with the option to use whatever one you want so you can compare and choose.

they sound marked different.

there is no way any measurment they can take of that dac will change based on the firmware code - it's the code itself that makes the difference in sound quality and they are very open about this.
Changing the code changes the output (See my previous post) which as it is analogue means the changes can be measured. (If you don’t believe me email Paul at PS Audio and he will tell you the same)

Bill
You are right at least for the differences between these 2 firmwares

However if you read futher down - Ted Smith himself mentions he will make 20 compliles and they will listen and see what sounds best, they definately do that

"The other FPGA code changes are harder to measure, tho they are there mathematically."
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
245
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insider9 said:
In that case please tell me how do you think a cable transmits bits? Transmission isn't digital. It's fully analogue but of a digital signal. There's is no data in the cable just electricity.

Please explain to me and only then you will understand. What is happening when a 1 is being sent and when a 0 is being sent. What actually happens?
By definintion it only has two states on and off - binary - this is a digital transmission. It doesn't allow for error in that respect, and it's pretty much irrelevent how that is transmitted, wether it be electrical puleses in the case of a usb cable (ie voltage over a certain level is a 1, under is a 0 - there's nothing inbetween, no grey, no granularity) or light pulses in an optical cable. That's what I was saying, you can transmit a digital signal in many ways. Morse code is classed as digital for example. That's the whole point of computers - that what you receive is exactly what you send, otherwise there is an error and it will not work. Please don't forget the first computers like the analytical engine were all mechanical, not a single cpu in sight, yet they still do what computers do, compute binary information. This is why we say that things such as usb cables cannot make a difference to the sound as all it is doing is sending a 1 or a 0 down it. It doesn't matter what that 1 and 0 represents. If a cable is faulty and sends a 0 instead of 1, you'll get an error, or a drop out, not reduced bass or less midrange. That would require digital manipulation which has to take place at either end of the cable. The same thing is happening inside your computer - voltage being used. A cpu is at it's heart a load of transistors, which work by manipulating voltage, just as the usb cable, there's no real difference until it gets out of the digital domain which is where the dac comes in. The USB cable in this line of thought is a red herring.

This is all computing basics, and one reason why people often do look down on audiophiles when they are literally trying to re-write how computers work by applying incorrct logic, such as the whole usb cable affair, to justify what they hear. It's frustrating because what they are effectively saying is that their logic trumps facts, trumps an entire multi billion dollar industry, trumps science, trumps an entire way of working such as the internet etc. If what audiophiles said were true, computer would literally not work, it's that simple.

insider9 said:
It's great to look down on people and say things like "the clue is in the name" when you start from admission that you don't understand what I said in the first place.
Apologies, it was not meant to come off like it, it was meant to be more tongue in cheek, given the job of a dac is to convert a digital signal in to analogue. It can't convert an analogue signal in to digital, thats an ADC job.

if you really want to know about USB, this is white paper on it - http://sdphca.ucsd.edu/Lab_Equip_Manuals/usb_20.pdf
 

cheeseboy

New member
Jul 17, 2012
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daveh75 said:
insider9 said:
Saying software doesn't have impact on hardware makes little sense to me. Surely if this was the case many devices wouldn't need additional driver under Windows.
Simply because Class 2 USB audio drivers are baked in at the Kernel level in Linux (macOS too) whereas Windows doesn't or at least didn't support Class 2 out the box.
https://www.whathifi.com/comment/1074826#comment-1074826 - FYI - From windows 10 v1703 Class 2 usb audio is now included in widnows - took them long enough!
 

cheeseboy

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Jul 17, 2012
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newlash09 said:
I've spent a considerable period of time, investigating options for a digital front end. And unless all the millions of Americans are dumb, the operating system, the audio player being used, USB cable and yes even still points for their dac make a difference :)
just because people believe it, doesn't mean it's true, that's a very logical fallacy, and also a dangerous one. It's the same thought that has given rise to the anti-vax movement for example. There's an estimated 2.3 billion christians in the world, and an estimated 1.8 billion muslims in the world. Doesn't mean either of them are right, and if one is right, that leaves billions being wrong.
 

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