Windows vs Linux

[insider9]

Though I'd share my early impressions of installing Ubuntu 16.0.4 and running Roon server on it.

Interesting. Were you running both operating systems on the same hardware? Were you running Roon server on Windows as well?

Previously run Roon core on Windows 10 PC plugged in directly via USB to Hegel Rost. Using either ASIO or WASAPI. It was my old gaming build so perhaps not ideal for audio however built from decent quality components.

Now the same machine is running Roon server on Ubuntu 16.0.4

 

[cheeseboy]

for those wanting to try other Linux variants that are tailored for audio, here's some you can try:

ubuntu studio

kxstudio

 

[andyjm]

So, what is the argument here? I am a huge Unix fan, having started my programming life on Unix machines, but why the perceived sound difference with Windows?

Assuming a DAC separate to the Windows box / UNIX (or UNIX derivative) box, with proper clock regeneration and jitter reduction on the DAC (which any decent DAC now has) then the only thing that can make a difference is if the data gets mangled.

I know that Windows had a tenedency to resample audio data, but I had understood that there was work around software (ASIO?) that kept the data bit-perfect.

It should be easy to compare the data output of a Unix box vs a Windows box. If the data is bit perfect in both cases, then I am afraid any differences perceived by the listener are between his ears.

 

[ellisdj]

ask FPGA dac designers about the importance or code of sound quality.

ps audio have upgraded their direct stream dac's about 5 times just with code. everything else the same just the code has changed.

the code has worked perfectly every single time they can't measure a difference in the dac but the code has improved the sound of their dac about 5 times so far.

so is it impossible to believe that software i.e. code can have an influence on sound quality?? not when you look at it like that

 

[insider9]

Theoretically there could be a number of things happening. I'll do it in no particular order but number them so it's easier to reference. This isn't what I claim is happening and only guess work.

Worth adding I'm using synchronous DAC.

1) Jitter on Windows is worse
2) Windows drivers and/or protocols aren't as good
3) With power power requirements hence consumption lower electrical noise on Linux is lowered on USB bus
4) Lower power consumption could also lower interference to external components

Any thoughts?

 

[ellisdj]

I did some beta testing years ago of some Windows code for sound quality.

maybe 20 people from around the world was doing it no-one knew each other didn't communicate directly with each other.
different systems cultures languages music people even time differences.

there was no consensus on what was best until version 10 can't remember the real number but 10 for arguments sake.

there was consensus everyone loves it.

the company then released version 11 which everyone disapproved of and wanted 10 back.

turns out the code was near identical there was one change to allow for compatability yet all different people from around the world who didn't know each other all experienced the same thing worse sound as a result of the change

experiences like that are driving forces for people like me like they would be anyone.

even after the people were told the code is the nearly the same they still wanted 10 back as 11 wasn't as good

 

[Dave_]

Theoretically there could be a number of things happening. I'll do it in no particular order but number them so it's easier to reference. This isn't what I claim is happening and only guess work.

Worth adding I'm using synchronous DAC.

1) Jitter on Windows is worse

Not audible, a non issue and always has been.

2) Windows drivers and/or protocols aren't as good 3)

Properly configured (ASIO/WASAPI) Windows is bit perfect!

With power power requirements hence consumption lower electrical noise on Linux is lowered on USB bus 4) Lower power consumption could also lower interference to external components

Any thoughts?

All audiphool nonsense.

I'd put money on sound levels or a whole host of other reasons due to your flawed comparison methodology being responsible for the differences you heard.

 

[BigH]

I tried to download a Roon trial but got a security about a virus, anyone else have such a problem?

I use WIndows 7, never have any problems with Windows updates, most are done when I close down the system.

 

[abacus]

ask FPGA dac designers about the importance or code of sound quality.

ps audio have upgraded their direct stream dac's about 5 times just with code. everything else the same just the code has changed.

the code has worked perfectly every single time they can't measure a difference in the dac but the code has improved the sound of their dac about 5 times so far.

so is it impossible to believe that software i.e. code can have an influence on sound quality?? not when you look at it like that

You are right and wrong at the same time; The DAC itself is totally reliant on the design of the associated components, (A cheap DAC with good design will sound better than an expensive DAC with a poor design of components) the FPGA includes both the DAC and separate components in one (It’s mainly all contained in software) which allows PS Audio to fine tune the system over time (Something that is difficult to do with fixed hardware) to further improve the results.

NOTE: the differences you hear with different firmware can be measured. (Measurements are of vital importance to PS Audio to make sure all the basics are correct before fine tuning of the sound using their Infinity 5 speakers in Music Room One)

Bill

 

[Dave_]

ask FPGA dac designers about the importance or code of sound quality.

ps audio have upgraded their direct stream dac's about 5 times just with code. everything else the same just the code has changed.

the code has worked perfectly every single time they can't measure a difference in the dac but the code has improved the sound of their dac about 5 times so far.

so is it impossible to believe that software i.e. code can have an influence on sound quality?? not when you look at it like that

If there was no measurable difference how did they demonstrate the improved SQ?

Sounds like a bunch of snake oil sellers preaching to the converted...

 

[insider9]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect.

 

[insider9]

I tried to download a Roon trial but got a security about a virus, anyone else have such a problem? 

I use WIndows 7, never have any problems with Windows updates, most are done when I close down the system.

If it's from Roon website don't worry about the warning.

 

[Dave_]

I tried to download a Roon trial but got a security about a virus, anyone else have such a problem?

I use WIndows 7, never have any problems with Windows updates, most are done when I close down the system.

If it's from Room website don't worry about the warning.

That's generally terrible advice!

Just because it's the authors website doesn't mean the d/l is safe.

There could be malicious ads etc, and it wouldn't the first time a legitimate site has been compromised and the d/ls replaced with malicious versions

 

[Dave_]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect

If that were true then the OS and PC isn't responsible for the differences.

Seems to me you're clutching at straws, and searching for anything that supports your ''beliefs' rather than genuinely trying to understand why you heard differences

 

[BigH]

I tried to download a Roon trial but got a security about a virus, anyone else have such a problem?

I use WIndows 7, never have any problems with Windows updates, most are done when I close down the system.

If it's from Room website don't worry about the warning.

That's generally terrible advice!

Just because it's the authors website doesn't mean the d/l is safe.

There could be malicious ads etc, and it wouldn't the first time a legitimate site has been compromised and the d/ls replaced with malicious versions

The download failed due to a virus deteched, so I can't download it anyway.

 

[insider9]

I tried to download a Roon trial but got a security about a virus, anyone else have such a problem? 

I use WIndows 7, never have any problems with Windows updates, most are done when I close down the system.

If it's from Room website don't worry about the warning.

That's generally terrible advice!

Just because it's the authors website doesn't mean the d/l is safe.

There could be malicious ads etc, and it wouldn't the first time a legitimate site has been compromised and the d/ls replaced with malicious versions

The download failed due to a virus deteched, so I can't download it anyway. 

Sorry BigH. It sound like I've given you a terrible advice. Apologies

 

[insider9]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect

If that were true then the OS and PC isn't responsible for the differences.

Seems to me you're clutching at straws, and searching for anything that supports your ''beliefs' rather than genuinely trying to understand why you heard differences

Have you read what I said. I was trying to understand why and if such changes are possible. It was guesswork trying to spark a debate.

I didn't install Linux for sonic gains. However I feel it brought them. I would like to understand if it is possible. And why this is if so. If you believe it's not that's fine by me.

 

[Dave_]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect

If that were true then the OS and PC isn't responsible for the differences.

How can a PC not be responsible if it converts the bits into analogue signal?

Its not though is it, it's passing a bit perfect stream to the DAC

 

[insider9]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect

If that were true then the OS and PC isn't responsible for the differences.

How can a PC not be responsible if it converts the bits into analogue signal?

Edit
Correction what I meant was analogue representation of digital signal.

 

[insider9]

Let's just stop there. Its only bit perfect at the PC. The minute it's transferred to DAC it's an analogue representation of digital signal. It can go wrong and particularly to a synchronous DAC.

So at a point of DAC it may not longer be and often isn't bit perfect

If that were true then the OS and PC isn't responsible for the differences.

How can a PC not be responsible if it converts the bits into analogue signal?

Its not though is it, it's passing a bit perfect stream to the DAC

Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?

 

[Dave_]

Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?

I think you're just reaching now and just looking for problems where none exist. Any competently designed DAC will do as good a job as any other.

The gains are little to non existent in the digital domain AFAIAC.

Just look at how well something as cheap as the Chromecast Audio or Raspi + DAC HAT performs (and measurably so)

 

[insider9]

I'm trying to understand. I might even get another SSD so I can dual boot and take acoustic measures under both Windows and then Linux. Please also bear in mind these are early impressions and I reserve the right to backtrack on these claims. If I get another drive I will install Roon to and listen once more under Windows and compare.

These are first non AB and non measurement based observations I've posted in a good while. Agreeing simply doesn't explain anything, ever. So feel free to continue to disagree but let's move this along but discussing specifics. Maybe there will be something that we can both agree on.

I don't agree that jitter is a non issue. And that you go get 100% same information at a DAC all the time. Particularly as I'm using synchronous DAC.

Saying software doesn't have impact on hardware makes little sense to me. Surely if this was the case many devices wouldn't need additional driver under Windows.

 

[insider9]

Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?

I think you're just reaching now and just looking for problems where none exist. Any competently designed DAC will do as good a job as any other.

The gains are little to non existent in the digital domain AFAIAC.

Just look at how well something as cheap as the Chromecast Audio or Raspi + DAC HAT performs (and measurably so)

 

Both of which have a light and purpose specific software.

 

[Dave_]

Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?

I think you're just reaching now and just looking for problems where none exist. Any competently designed DAC will do as good a job as any other.

The gains are little to non existent in the digital domain AFAIAC.

Just look at how well something as cheap as the Chromecast Audio or Raspi + DAC HAT performs (and measurably so)

Both of which have a light and purpose specific software.

Not really.

Are you suggesting Raspis running Rune, Volumio,, piCorePlayer etc etc sound better than ones running Rasbian, Arch, Ubuntu etc?

 

[insider9]

Apologies, analogue representation of digital signal. I mentioned this earlier. Is that better?

There are no bits in the cable just analogue representation of them. Just swings of voltage. Do you suggest that every component can do this equally well?

I think you're just reaching now and just looking for problems where none exist. Any competently designed DAC will do as good a job as any other.

The gains are little to non existent in the digital domain AFAIAC.

Just look at how well something as cheap as the Chromecast Audio or Raspi + DAC HAT performs (and measurably so)

 

Both of which have a light and purpose specific software.

Not really.

Are you suggesting a Raspis running Rune, Volumio,, piCorePlayer etc sound better than one running Rasbian, Arch, Ubuntu etc?

No, as no experience with Pi and other distros. But I'm suggesting if there is indeed a difference between Windows and Linux then you'd be able to replicate it on Rasp Pi or any other hardware.