Windows vs Linux

[insider9]

Didn't realise this could turn into a mini cable thread like debate.

me and cheesboy have history over this subject.

sorry about that - try fidelizer for free try jplay for free try process lassoss for free.
Take the time to get the settings right for each and see what you think

The big one for Windows 10 and server is Audiophile optimiser but you can't try that for free.
One of the top amp designers Bascom King uses Audiophile Optimiser from an optimised pc or laptop not sure which. He is the chap who just designed the ps audio BHK line up so some manufacturers and designers agree it sounds best.

You will hear him talk about this in one of his PS Audio interviews on YT

Thanks but I've no interest in going back to Windows. I'll have a look out of interest only.

Roon works better on Linux. Linux has no problems running headless, doesn't need rebooting after updates and just works. And took little time to setup. Not only that but it could run on far lesser gear than I'm using. Assuming sound quality is exactly the same I'll keep it for all the other reasons. But I do feel sound quality improved.

 

[ellisdj]

fair enough Windows has the benefit of driver support software support etc.

Windows update goes straight off fully disabled along with 99% of the rest so don't have to worry about that. running headless is easy as well I just turn my pc on it runs a boot cycle where all the necessary services etc needed for start-up get shut back down. To turn it off I have to hard power off by holding the power button for 3 seconds.

It's useful to have access to the pc for a short period so I can disable the shut down scripts if I want to use the pc for ripping cds or anything.

For dirac live I have to undo what audiophile optimiser does so I can sync with their protection pc to create the initial filter set. I get to listen before and after what it does fairly often. it's more of a pain having it on but wouldn't listen without.

when people test ssd against HD I wonder if they use 2 drives one for operating system and one for music or just use 1 for both?

 

[insider9]

PC when not in use is Suspended (like Sleep in Windows). I wake it up from my mobile with a widget (takes one press) via Wake On LAN. It comes on straight away and it take 10 seconds for Roon mobile app to connect to server. It's this "long" because of network connection being re-established. Then I just play music. Whenever I'm done I press the button on the PC and it Suspends it which takes 3 seconds.

Windows would throw a fit if I setup like this. It just didn't like being put to Sleep all the time and certainly didn't like Wake on LAN for whatever reason.

 

[ellisdj]

That is a nice way to control it. I don't think that would work for me I have the network switched off yet control apps like bubble kinsky etc still work

 

[cheeseboy]

You know what I didn't realise how much crap associated with Windows there was. Considering I'm running plain Ubuntu with not much configured imagine if I could improve on that.

firstly, I'd recommend trying Linux Mint, I much prefer it to Unbuntu as a distribution. If you want to get supergeek, look at then compiling your own version of Linux - gentoo is a great start. It basically means you can specifiy exactly what parts of linux get installed. This is what the Daphile distribution has done - he created a very stripped down version of linux with LMS on it. Have fun

 

[cheeseboy]

Because to try it properly especially if doing DIY would take hours and hours of messing and you need serious motivation for that. Clearly your not interested in the topic enough to do it which is fair enough.
Turning off some services is just one stage of the process the rest is far more complex. Plus you need pretty much them all off Inc Windows explorer

again here we are ellis. You're making assumtions about people and saying they need to do x.y and z, but when people ask you, you either go quiet, don't answer or revert back to the old I can hear it so it must be true. I've asked you time and time again if you've ever blind tested any of these tweaks - no reply, I've asked if you''ve every tried a linux distribution like Daphile, which would only require booting from a usb stick, and you said you didn't want to mess up your computer! the list does go on, but I find it very disengenious when I've also given you a way to test outside of the analogue domain to see if any of the changes are making any real world effect you refuse, and then you say the things above about how people are not willing to try or put the time in. I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just asking if you can see the hypocrisy in your posts when you do this? I apprecaite your posts on room correction, and as I have stated I have no doubt that your system sounds great and that you are very much in to your hifi, so those are things I am not disputing, but the computer side of things, sorry, a lot of it just won't make any difference, and there are ways you can, if you wanted to, prove this. If you don't that's fair enough, but please then take on board that you are being just as dismissive as those that you would say the same to. I say this with respect, not malice, please be aware of this.

I've tried many things with the computer, but if I do hear a difference I will go out of my way to work out if it's real world or not. Unfortunately a lot of the computer audiophile people and forums I've read are literally littered with people who are trying to re-write how computers work to fit in with what they hear.

So, maybe you should try a linux distribution, or a raspberry pi running Volumio or something, because you never know, you just might like it.

 

[cheeseboy]

Windows would throw a fit if I setup like this. It just didn't like being put to Sleep all the time and certainly didn't like Wake on LAN for whatever reason.

just fyi, and anybody else trying to get WOL to work on windows 10, they messed around with how windows shuts down and restarts. Firstly you need to make sure WOL is enabled in the network driver and in the bioses, plus some bioses you need to turn off certain suspend modes. Then ideally you need to turn off fast boot so the computer is shut down and not in a S sleep mode. It's all a bit of a faff to be honest, I can see why you'd want to switch to linux

 

[abacus]

I suggest you do some more research into Linux, as the Ubuntu distro is full of bloatware and pretty naff for music. (It really went downhill after about V12)

Linux is essentially a server OS (It is used in most servers worldwide) which is why it works well as a server. (Not the best for desktop use though, hence for the last 20 years I have been using both Windows and a Linux distro)

There is still a lot of pro (And free) software that will not run on Linux, and while WINE helps it still falls short, so if you already have a Windows OS, I suggest you install a virtual machine in Linux and run Windows in that. (It also works the other way round)

If you want to dedicate your computer for music (No matter what OS it runs) then there is plenty information online from professional sources as well as hobbyists, so do some research rather than doing things blind, as in most cases you will make it worse.

Above all, have fun as you experiment.

Bill

 

[abacus]

Windows would throw a fit if I setup like this. It just didn't like being put to Sleep all the time and certainly didn't like Wake on LAN for whatever reason.

just fyi, and anybody else trying to get WOL to work on windows 10, they messed around with how windows shuts down and restarts. Firstly you need to make sure WOL is enabled in the network driver and in the bioses, plus some bioses you need to turn off certain suspend modes. Then ideally you need to turn off fast boot so the computer is shut down and not in a S sleep mode. It's all a bit of a faff to be honest, I can see why you'd want to switch to linux

This usually works https://www.groovypost.com/howto/enable-wake-on-lan-windows-10/

Bill

 

[ellisdj]

Because to try it properly especially if doing DIY would take hours and hours of messing and you need serious motivation for that. Clearly your not interested in the topic enough to do it which is fair enough.Turning off some services is just one stage of the process the rest is far more complex. Plus you need pretty much them all off Inc Windows explorer

again here we are ellis.  You're making assumtions about people and saying they need to do x.y and z, but when people ask you, you either go quiet, don't answer or revert back to the old I can hear it so it must be true.  I've asked you time and time again if you've ever blind tested any of these tweaks - no reply, I've asked if you''ve every tried a linux distribution like Daphile, which would only require booting from a usb stick, and you said you didn't want to mess up your computer!  the list does go on, but I find it very disengenious when I've also given you a way to test outside of the analogue domain to see if any of the changes are making any real world effect you refuse, and then you say the things above about how people are not willing to try or put the time in.  I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm just asking if you can see the hypocrisy in your posts when you do this?  I apprecaite your posts on room correction, and as I have stated I have no doubt that your system sounds great and that you are very much in to your hifi, so those are things I am not disputing, but the computer side of things, sorry, a lot of it just won't make any difference, and there are ways you can, if you wanted to, prove this.  If you don't that's fair enough, but please then take on board that you are being just as dismissive as those that you would say the same to.  I say this with respect, not malice, please be aware of this.

I've tried many things with the computer, but if I do hear a difference I will go out of my way to work out if it's real world or not.  Unfortunately a lot of the computer audiophile people and forums I've read are literally littered with people who are trying to re-write how computers work to fit in with what they hear.

So, maybe you should try a linux distribution, or a raspberry pi running Volumio or something, because you never know, you just might like it.

and again here we are with you twisting things.
I haven't said Linux is not better I have actually a few posts said people use it as they think it is better than Windows.
raspberry pis or whatever you have brought up is not even part of this conversation.
The conversation is Linux sounded better than Windows. My suggestion try these things that are free to see if it puts that back in balance or makes Windows better than Linux. Windows has advantages and insider might have wanted to stick with it for them.

then you have to make it a drawn out debate. I am happy for anyone to blind test these suggestions if they want. they find no difference still fine.

people on the forums you mention are active people trying to push for better sound there is nothing wrong with that and their suggestions and advice has helped me immensely and other people that I know as well.
I am happy for people to show me great sound from a raspberry pi laptop or whatever. It's part of the learning curve we can all share experience positive and negative and the demonstration of that is the only factor that matters. you need to hear the sound qualities to compare / comparing the approaches if you will - it's the only way that puts an opinion into perspective.

 

[BigH]

In the past I’ve done lots of comparisons between Windows and Mac, also different software that people have sworn made a difference to sound quality (anyone remember Amarra?). All bull in my opinion. If it’s bit-perfect it’s the same, end of story. It’s like the argument between a hdd and a ssd, makes no difference at all, aside from anything else whatever the data is read from gets buffered to memory before going to the output device. And as to the hifi industry using dedicated streamers, so what - why would anyone be surprised by that? It’s all part of the ******** that follows this hobby round like a bad smell. Personally I hate it and can’t respect anyone who swallows it, let alone those who promote it.

I tend to agree about streamers, what is the point?

 

[insider9]

I suggest you do some more research into Linux, as the Ubuntu distro is full of bloatware and pretty naff for music. (It really went downhill after about V12)

Linux is essentially a server OS (It is used in most servers worldwide) which is why it works well as a server. (Not the best for desktop use though, hence for the last 20 years I have been using both Windows and a Linux distro)

There is still a lot of pro (And free) software that will not run on Linux, and while WINE helps it still falls short, so if you already have a Windows OS, I suggest you install a virtual machine in Linux and run Windows in that. (It also works the other way round)

If you want to dedicate your computer for music (No matter what OS it runs) then there is plenty information online from professional sources as well as hobbyists, so do some research rather than doing things blind, as in most cases you will make it worse.

Above all, have fun as you experiment.

Bill

Will look into it. Thanks Bill. Started with Ubuntu as it was less daunting to be perfectly honest. Quite happy with no GUI but needed to learn Linux commands to operate it from console.

I've read many on Roon forum use Archlinux.

 

[insider9]

Windows would throw a fit if I setup like this. It just didn't like being put to Sleep all the time and certainly didn't like Wake on LAN for whatever reason.

just fyi, and anybody else trying to get WOL to work on windows 10, they messed around with how windows shuts down and restarts.  Firstly you need to make sure WOL is enabled in the network driver and in the bioses, plus some bioses you need to turn off certain suspend modes. Then ideally you need to turn off fast boot so the computer is shut down and not in a S sleep mode.  It's all a bit of a faff to be honest, I can see why you'd want to switch to linux  

This usually works https://www.groovypost.com/howto/enable-wake-on-lan-windows-10/

Bill

From memory I've done vast majority of it. It worked sort off. Not just that but was slow as hell. Windows has a problem with memory allocation after a while if using Sleep too. Really is built to be switched on and off or hibernated.

 

[ellisdj]

The other thing to try if you fancied a play and I know you do - your running Linux off a usb memory stick

I am sure I have read that people do that with windows as well - would be interesting to see if that also has any effect on the outcome of SQ in comparison.

Lot of effort to test stuff like that if its not part of a long term but I know you like to fiddle so thought I would suggest it

 

[insider9]

Yes did that first. That's why I ended up going with it. We also had the same setup when I visited my mate. Just plugged in USB stick and booted into it. No install, can be copied. And runs on a different machine with no hardware conflicts. Doesn't need overcomplicated drivers etc.

 

[ellisdj]

howd do you control the latency of the usb connection without drivers?

are you using motherboard usb?

 

[insider9]

Yes, motherboard USB. And latency isn't an issue as I'm not recording. It's playback of just audio, no video to sync.

Not just that but I'm using long FIR filters so latency is there irrespective of hardware being used.

 

[ellisdj]

On a lot of the solutions I have seen they XMOS usb input and I am pretty sure Thesycon drivers - I have the same driver panel for my Mutec USB3+ USB as I do for an iFI iDSD BL - in this panel you have buffer and latency settings - are you using the DAC in the Rost? What drivers does that have - a grey panel for a few tabs such as buffer latency??

 

[insider9]

I would have to reinstall Windows to tell you this.

Roon buffer latency is 100ms I kept it like this could change it if I wanted to. It is connected to Rost. Rost doesn't need any special drivers to run off USB.

At my mate's who insisted using Xmos drivers under Windows for his DAC we plugged in Ubuntu and tried it of just standard Ubuntu drivers and he was sold on the idea of Linux.

 

[ellisdj]

Fair enough buddy just trying to work out how it works - wish we lived closer could really bounce off each other with ideas

 

[insider9]

That is a shame. I didn't realise how much more effort you put into it. I've done as much as I though necessary but it looks like more could've been done.

On another note. I'll be honest I'm surprised you're not using Roon. It would seriously transform how you listen to music. And no you don't have to stream for it to be worth it.

 

[Dave_]

The other thing to try if you fancied a play and I know you do - your running Linux off a usb memory stick

Why not just go the whole hog and use a lightweight Linux distro that runs entirely in RAM?

It will have zero impact on SQ though, like the majority of your advice...

 

[ellisdj]

That is a shame. I didn't realise how much more effort you put into it. I've done as much as I though necessary but it looks like more could've been done.

On another note. I'll be honest I'm surprised you're not using Roon. It would seriously transform how you listen to music. And no you don't have to stream for it to be worth it.

I haven't tried it so I don't really know. I would like for you to have shown me what you have done here and via a versa.
My whole thought process is less is more so if roon is another service then that's a potential negative for a positive if that makes sense.

BubbleDS actually works great now days simple but effective. Roon is the old meridian guys is it not that built sooloos is that right?

I have a ton more things you can try / do if you want to email me I can suggest a few things to try. Personal emails saves side arguments

 

[insider9]

Will do. Cheers

 

[Strictly Stereo]

Though I'd share my early impressions of installing Ubuntu 16.0.4 and running Roon server on it.

Interesting. Were you running both operating systems on the same hardware? Were you running Roon server on Windows as well?