Will Sonos ever offer audiophile grade streamers?

[bigblue235]

I queried Sonos' price as well before buying one: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/wi-fi/why-is-sonos-so-expensive But after I bought it, I realised what a serious bit of tech this is. Now I don't think it's expensive at all. It's the technology you pay for.

I'm still querying it I'd still love Sonos, still can't justify it. The speakers seem like fair value (although I was also disappointed with the sound of both of them) but the Connect just baffles me. I'm easily baffled though.

 

[professorhat]

I queried Sonos' price as well before buying one: http://www.whathifi.com/forum/wi-fi/why-is-sonos-so-expensive But after I bought it, I realised what a serious bit of tech this is. Now I don't think it's expensive at all. It's the technology you pay for.

I'm still querying it I'd still love Sonos, still can't justify it. The speakers seem like fair value (although I was also disappointed with the sound of both of them) but the Connect just baffles me. I'm easily baffled though.

Depends really. Many of my friends raise their eyebrows when I say how much the two ZP90s I have cost, but then for music playback, they're by far the most used bits of kit I have so easily worth the price.

 

[moosey]

:bounce:

i agree completely with The Prof; the connects are now my main source of music, and having instant access to 700cds has helped me rediscover my music.

i have a connect attached to main hifi, av setup and kitchen 'compact' hifi.

The bug then arrievd and I use a play5 as a 'portable' source for other rooms/garden

If you have a decent amount of existing 'hifi' equipment, the connect allows access without you having to throw anything away; it just adds an additional (and very useable) source to your current set up.

it is so user friendlly, and i can't tell the difference between the connect and my Cd player (admittedly my cd player is quite aged!)

it is addictive:help:

 

[eggontoast]

I'm still querying it I'd still love Sonos, still can't justify it. The speakers seem like fair value (although I was also disappointed with the sound of both of them) but the Connect just baffles me. I'm easily baffled though.

I think every prospective purchaser of Sonos equipment thinks this, I know I did but I took the plunge anyway. After you have used one for a while that little question of price disappears. Not sure what the Play:3 sounds like but I have an S5 or PLAY:5 as its called now and the sound reproduction from it is very good indeed for its size. I wouldn't contemplate using one or two for a serious Hi-Fi setup though but they are ideal for making a bit of good quality sound around the house. I have one on the landing and it's more than good enough to provide music for the whole of the upstairs, but like I said, they are not for a front room setup that's what the ZP90 (connect) is for. The on board DAC is good enough for most set ups, it's small, well specified and a breeze to use

 

[BigColz]

1 the market/profit margin for deleloping/marketing these products is just not worth it.

2. If you play from 16/44 source thats more than good enough for the level of components in the connect. No way you would hear the difference on a Play 3/5. 95%+ market use mp3's/spotify etc

3. Bandwith/wireless issues sending Hi res data.

I think I will buy a connect for my living room Hifi in the summer andpaybe a play3 or 5 for kitchen/garden in summer .. I used to think the connect was overpricved but the fuctionality, especialy on the iPad app is just flawless.. Thats what you are paying for! You could pick up my Cambridge Audio 540a + 540c + speakers second hand for under £300. So that (or similar NAD/rotel/marantz etc) plus a connect would be a very nice setup for under £500ish. I heard the Play 3 and 5 and I think they're are both good at what they do.. Basier than you'd think and a lot more refined sounding than most £200-£300 iPod docks IMO.. I think the sub is ovepriced..

 

[andyjm]

Now that Squeeze has gone the way of the dodo, Sonos have the mid range multi room field to themselves and can charge whatever the market will bear. Although not directly comparable, the Raspberry Pi is not that different to the ZP90 (if anything it is more powerful), and can be had for about £30. It would not be unreasonable to assume that the BOM costs for the ZP90 are similar, so even with a 100% retailers margin, Sonos should be doing quite well out of the ZP90.

The unknown is of course the volumes Sonos ship and the development costs that need to be amortised. A £30 device that costs £1M to develop and only sells 1000 units still costs £1000 to break even.

 

[The_Lhc]

Now that Squeeze has gone the way of the dodo, Sonos have the mid range multi room field to themselves and can charge whatever the market will bear.

I don't think they've changed the price of the ZP90 or 120 since they were released some years ago, so I don't think they're pursuing a particularly aggressive charging policy (they certainly haven't gone up in price to my knowledge) and let's not forget that at that point they were the ONLY players Sonos offered, so the ZP90 was the "cheap" option, it's only now that there is an all-in-one player that costs less than the Connect that people think it's expensive, when in actual fact the Connect is far more versatile than the Play:3 (which doesn't even have a line-in...).

Oddly you don't hear too many people complaining about the price of the Connect:Amp compared to the Play:5 (the 5 is 40 quid less) even though a lot of people would think that the Amp is just a 5 without the speakers and so should be cheaper...

 

[andyjm]

Now that Squeeze has gone the way of the dodo, Sonos have the mid range multi room field to themselves and can charge whatever the market will bear.

I don't think they've changed the price of the ZP90 or 120 since they were released some years ago, so I don't think they're pursuing a particularly aggressive charging policy (they certainly haven't gone up in price to my knowledge) and let's not forget that at that point they were the ONLY players Sonos offered, so the ZP90 was the "cheap" option, it's only now that there is an all-in-one player that costs less than the Connect that people think it's expensive, when in actual fact the Connect is far more versatile than the Play:3 (which doesn't even have a line-in...).

I think the issue is that prices of electronic goods have generally declined over the same period. I agree that in HiFi terms the Connect isn't expensive, but when it costs more than a new laptop and it is little more than a wireless access point and a DAC you do have to wonder.

 

[The_Lhc]

I think the issue is that prices of electronic goods have generally declined over the same period.

I'd probably argue that that only applies to TVs, I don't see the price of amps and speakers coming down much (which is why I still haven't updated my system...). The Project Debut turntable that I bought ten years ago for £150 is now £250 to £300 depending on which model you want (although you might argue the Essential is the equivalent model now, it isn't, as the Debut I bought had speed controller, phono stage and sub platter, none of which the Essential has).

I agree that in HiFi terms the Connect isn't expensive, but when it costs more than a new laptop

You want a laptop for less than £269? You're braver than I thought...

 

[professorhat]

The unknown is of course the volumes Sonos ship and the development costs that need to be amortised. A £30 device that costs £1M to develop and only sells 1000 units still costs £1000 to break even.

A point often forgotten by people when they quote margins on products and use this as unqualified proof that a company is raking it in and making a fortune out of its poor customers.

Other things to remember of course are all the other costs that go into running a company and selling a product before a profit can be made - wages, tax, building costs, distribution, packaging, legal costs (patents, copyrights etc. etc.) and goodness knows what else (given I've never run my own company, I'm sure there's a lot I've not thought about!).

 

[MajorFubar]

I approached round-the-house audio-distribution in my usual D-I-Y twisted little way. I have attached a slightly-modified USB-powered FM stereo transmitter to the tape-outputs on my amp. Any FM radio within about 50 feet can receive whatever my HiFi is playing, be that records, CDs, or more often than not, something streaming from my Mac Mini like Spotify or iTunes controlled from my iPhone. I can have The Cars in my garage, Red Hot Chili Peppers in my Kitchen, The Beatles' She Came in Through The Bathroom Window in my shower, then at night I can have Katy Perry in my bedroom (God, I wish), using nothing but radios that are already there. Obviously the only down-side is they can't play different things at once, but that's a compromise I can easily live with when I consider how cheap it's been (

 

[The_Lhc]

The unknown is of course the volumes Sonos ship and the development costs that need to be amortised. A £30 device that costs £1M to develop and only sells 1000 units still costs £1000 to break even.

A point often forgotten by people when they quote margins on products and use this as unqualified proof that a company is raking it in and making a fortune out of its poor customers.

Other things to remember of course are all the other costs that go into running a company and selling a product before a profit can be made - wages, tax, building costs, distribution, packaging, legal costs (patents, copyrights etc. etc.) and goodness knows what else (given I've never run my own company, I'm sure there's a lot I've not thought about!).

I expect Sonos' support arrangements suck up no small amount of cash, as good as they are (apparently, I've never had need to use them).

 

[Anonymous]

The great thing for Sonos (as with Apple for example), is that they start from scratch and have no legacy infrastruture. They keep their products simple, and few of them, and control the distribution. What this has meant, is that support costs and all other functions you will think of are centralised. For example, there is no call centre or huge product varience to support.

The thing I would like to ask them is please create a flagship streamer (not DAC) or maybe a better All in one Amp solution; basically like a Uniti from Naim, to give customers who love the functionality better quality.

I don't know why, but the streaming from Naim devices is better sounding than my Sonos, and the same QBD is doing the conversion work. SO if i want to upgrade quality, I'll have to leave sonos. Would be good for WHF to do one of their interview sessions with Sonos CEO who by all accounts is very approachable. Claire - is this something you guys have tried?

 

[The_Lhc]

The great thing for Sonos (as with Apple for example), is that they start from scratch and have no legacy infrastruture.

Well they do now, it's one of Sonos' stated aims that they won't leave old hardware behind. It's speculated that that's one of the reasons why a 24-bit streamer would be so difficult for them to implement, the desire to allow any music to play on any Zone would be knackered if you suddenly had one zone that could play 24-bit whilst the rest choked on it.

For example, there is no call centre or huge product varience to support.

They definitely have a call centre.

The thing I would like to ask them is please create a flagship streamer (not DAC) or maybe a better All in one Amp solution; basically like a Uniti from Naim, to give customers who love the functionality better quality. I don't know why, but the streaming from Naim devices is better sounding than my Sonos, and the same QBD is doing the conversion work.

What Sonos devices do you have? I'd be interested to see what difference there is between the digital out from a Connect going into a Naim (assuming they accept digital inputs) compared to the Naim playing the same track natively.

SO if i want to upgrade quality, I'll have to leave sonos. Would be good for WHF to do one of their interview sessions with Sonos CEO who by all accounts is very approachable. Claire - is this something you guys have tried?

Pay attention 007, it's "Clare" and she hasn't worked for WHF for some time now! As for the rest of them they're probably a bit busy at CES right now, besides, the last time they talked to him at CES it was under a strict NDA, so they wouldn't be able to tell scum like us anyway...

EDIT: Incidentally Joni Hoadley, the Sonos Product Manager is NOT at CES and the official Sonos twitter account has made no mention of the show at all, so I'm not entirely sure they're actually present (apparently @SonosJobs is at the show though).

 

[CnoEvil]

A point often forgotten by people when they quote margins on products and use this as unqualified proof that a company is raking it in and making a fortune out of its poor customers.

Other things to remember of course are all the other costs that go into running a company and selling a product before a profit can be made - wages, tax, building costs, distribution, packaging, legal costs (patents, copyrights etc. etc.) and goodness knows what else (given I've never run my own company, I'm sure there's a lot I've not thought about!).

This is what I was hinting at in my post.

I am involved in running a company, and things like fluctuations in raw material prices (huge in my case) and exchange rates (buying raw materials from different countries and also selling in them). The cost of things like power (oil / lecky) and insurance has rocketed, and that's not including the cost of complying with the ever expanding / demanding Heath and Safety legislation and all the other rules and regs that Brussels seems to produce, with ever expanding regularity.

Now you've got me started |( .......better stop, before I do myself a mischief!

 

[Clare Newsome]

Sonos here at CES, but not formally exhibiting; just having lots of dealer meets etc. Some exciting products coming later in 2013...

 

[The_Lhc]

Sonos here at CES, but not formally exhibiting; just having lots of dealer meets etc. Some exciting products coming later in 2013...

The FCC Playbar leak was a bit of a hint...

 

[bigblue235]

Depends really. Many of my friends raise their eyebrows when I say how much the two ZP90s I have cost, but then for music playback, they're by far the most used bits of kit I have so easily worth the price.

Thanks for that (and the other comments regarding price) but whilst I can see how you can get your money's worth out of it, in direct comparison to other devices it doesn't stack up for me at the mo.

An Apple TV is about £80 now, a PS3 can be had for £150, both of these offer streaming of music and video, plus loads of other features. Admittedly Sonos is far more user-friendly and creates it's own Mesh, etc, but £200 more than an ATV seems excessive.

The upcoming Pure Jongo 'hi-fi adaptor' is going to be £99 with 24-bit DAC, and I'm sure there will soon be a load of sub-£100 kit capable of bit-perfect output. There's meant to be a load of new Google/Android ones which are meant to be coming out later in the year as well. But that teaser from Clare about new Sonos kit is also interesting!

Aargh!

 

[Pikman]

See, this makes me wonder what to do. I was thinking of picking up a Play 3 and bridge while they are cheaper (still seem to be in the shops at the reduced price) but if they are releasing a newer model this year I wouldn't want it to be defunct... Sounds as though they do not make things obsolete though?

I can deal with the lack of 'full fat' support, although it would be really nice to know it supported any bit rate..

 

[The_Lhc]

See, this makes me wonder what to do. I was thinking of picking up a Play 3 and bridge while they are cheaper (still seem to be in the shops at the reduced price) but if they are releasing a newer model this year I wouldn't want it to be defunct... Sounds as though they do not make things obsolete though?

It won't be an "newer" model, in the sense that it's completely different to the existing hardware, rather an additional one. Sonos have never made ANY previous device obsolete, every device they've stopped making (ZP80, ZP100, CR100/200) all still work seamlessly with newer models. The rumoured device, the Playbar, appears, from the name at least, to be some kind of soundbar, perhaps heralding the possibility of creating a fully wireless home theatre setup (Playbar for front, Play:3/5 for rears and the SUB). This is entirely guesswork based on the name and the fact that some while ago Sonos were advertising for developers with Home Cinema experience. The only concrete fact that can be gleaned from the FCC filing is that the new unit apparently supports 5gHz wireless, which the current ones don't. It is inconceivable that devices like the Play:3 will be made unusable, whatever the Playbar turns out to be though.

I can deal with the lack of 'full fat' support, although it would be really nice to know it supported any bit rate..

It only supports 16bit up to 48kHz at this time.

 

[Anonymous]

Thanks Clare - would be good to have a Ken Ishiwata / Marrantz style interview with them when they have time. I think their company is one to watch I know is already doing well, and definitely a leader, hence my desire to see better quality streaming capability.

With regards saying Sonos DO have a call centre, they have offices you can call but they don't call them a call centre and are cetrally located around the world - so for all of Europe, you'll speak to someone at Sonos Europe HQ and the people answering phones do a whole host of other tasks online.

With regards buying a Play3 - they won't stop selling this; from what I can see they tend to keep what they make and expand (i.e. the sub woofer).

With regards upgrading, I'm sure they will follow similar lines to Apple with the iOS working on all older devices, bu there will come a point it needs to move on.

With regards the Naim Vs Sonos, I only tested the streaming part - I used a seperate DAC. The Sonos sounded more artificial in sound and drums lack scale for example. There must be ways to improve the streaming / transport quality.

 

[The_Lhc]

With regards saying Sonos DO have a call centre, they have offices you can call but they don't call them a call centre

Ok, they have a support network, that's still a lot of people that need to be paid for.

and are cetrally located around the world

Huh?

- so for all of Europe, you'll speak to someone at Sonos Europe HQ and the people answering phones do a whole host of other tasks online.

They definitely have people that only work on support.

With regards the Naim Vs Sonos, I only tested the streaming part - I used a seperate DAC. The Sonos sounded more artificial in sound and drums lack scale for example. There must be ways to improve the streaming / transport quality.

So both devices connected to the same DAC playing the same file? Ok.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I love my Sonos, but want higher resolution capability and the ability to upgrade the power supply. Sonos started with Audiophiles, but is now targeting mainstream. The all in one boxes and standard iPhone trend is fine, but it has so much more potential.

When will the relook at their core target market and innovate?

I've not followed this thread, and I don't have time to read through it (and its my day off) so I'd like to say that it'd be interesting to see Sonos try and grab the slightly more budget market that Logitech had with the Squeezebox. Now that they're no longer produced, there's a wide open market there, and its not exactly a small one.

As mentioned, other manufacturers like Naim and Cyrus have pretty much got the higher end of the market sewn up with an excellent range streamers, so I doubt Sonos will want to try and take them on. That said, there's a gap between Sonos and Naim that is waiting to be filled. That gap has many products by hi-fi manufacturers, but they're just not selling. If Sonos can go slightly up market, they already have a large database of customers that already use Sonos that they can target. That said, I'm guessing it will be a rather small percentage of that database that will be genuinely interested in anything better. I still use my ZP90, and would happily change for something that is essentially the same thing but without a DAC - effectively a digital transport with a decent power supply would be ideal. I suppose this can be added to the current range but would probably be a niche product.

 

[The_Lhc]

I still use my ZP90, and would happily change for something that is essentially the same thing but without a DAC - effectively a digital transport with a decent power supply would be ideal. I suppose this can be added to the current range but would probably be a niche product.

I sometimes get the impression that the ZP90 and 120 are already considered niche products in some quarters.

 

[Frank Harvey]

I guess so, seeing as the majority of Sonos sales are now Play products...