Will Sonos ever offer audiophile grade streamers?

[Nintendologist]

I think the term 'HiFi' has been warped over the past few years. To me it used to mean reproducing music at such a level that it sounded like the original artist/instruments were in the room playing for you. But thesedays any old speaker dock/bluetooth system will claim to produce 'HiFi sound'.

I agree with bigboss (his other thread is worth a read) - the Connect unit from Sonos is, in fact, a great facilitator in getting music into your amplified system and then separate items can be used to minimise further loss.

I personally stream lossless music into a Arcam Solo unit, via a Sonos Connect and Arcam rDac using some pretty good interconnects and speaker cable thereafter (more than most people deem worthwhile on a £279 Sonos unit) and the results are truly excellent. Even the Spotify music I stream is fine at reasonable volumes.

 

[andyjm]

Yep, the iPhone / iPod touch was the nail in the coffin for many handheld controllers. The logitech duet's handset, the Sonos CR200 handheld, all fell beofre the mighty iDevice.

Yeah, that's right, it had nothing to do with Android devices at all did it? Actually, one of the main reasons Sonos discontinued the CR200 was because they had so many reliability issues with them and it wasn't worth trying to come up with a new controller when you could buy any $99 Android tablet and use it for that instead.

The wrinkle for Sonos owners is that the iDevice only works with Wifi, not the Sonos MESH network, so depending on your system topology, you may have to replicate Wifi coverage around your house to make your controller work.

Or you could just use an Android device which CAN connect directly to the Sonos mesh network, which is a hell of a lot easier.

Fair enough, should have said iDevice / android, rather than just iDevice. The android phones were launched at least a year of so behind the iDevices, and it took a while for them to catch on. I didnt realise that the android phones would use the MESH protocol on WiFi, so I guess that avoids having to run a separate network.

 

[radiorog]

...oh dear....i seemed to have ruffled a few feathers with my hifi comment to which i appologise as i wasnt meant to be snobbish on the comment.its quite interesting though how some people jumped stright onto the attack though in assuming i was.anyway....i shall explain myself....as i probably should have in original comment but it was posted late at night when rather tired.when i suggested that sonos might not be for someone with an already ok hifi set up....if they were only wanting to listen to music in one room....was that the sonos system does sound good.....similar to say bose for example...or pure radios......but the do not sound anything like as detailed and full bodied as say a £500 amp and £600 speakers being fed by a £500 cd player.so i was meaning that if you had such a hifi system....you wouldnt want to necessarily buy a sonos just so that you could stream internet radio or spotify....you could simply buy a bluetooth receiver or wireless receiver....because buying sonos wouldnt improve sound quality by a margin that would warrant the extra expense.if i could stream lossless quality sound through it....i would be tempted.....but so far it seems the back catologues for lossless arent very large....so again i would be struggling to warrant the expense.maybe that is one of the new uodates coming to sonos??

 

[matt49]

but the do not sound anything like as detailed and full bodied as say a £500 amp and £600 speakers being fed by a £500 cd player.so i was meaning that if you had such a hifi system....you wouldnt want to necessarily buy a sonos just so that you could stream internet radio or spotify....you could simply buy a bluetooth receiver or wireless receiver....because buying sonos wouldnt improve sound quality by a margin that would warrant the extra expense.if i could stream lossless quality sound through it....i would be tempted.....but so far it seems the back catologues for lossless arent very large....so again i would be struggling to warrant the expense.maybe that is one of the new uodates coming to sonos??

OK, well I'm not one of the attack dogs, but it really does depend on what you're comparing. If you're comparing your notional £1600 hifi system with a Sonos Play 3 or Play 5, then you might have a case. But if you're comparing a £500 CD player with a Sonos Connect as a source, then I'd say the attack dogs are right: there really won't be any difference.

As for "lossless" streaming, again it depends what you mean. You can stream lossless files from a hard drive with a Sonos Connect. Lovely. Alternatively you can stream Spotify Premium through a Sonos Connect. Also lovely.

 

[davedotco]

but the do not sound anything like as detailed and full bodied as say a £500 amp and £600 speakers being fed by a £500 cd player.so i was meaning that if you had such a hifi system....you wouldnt want to necessarily buy a sonos just so that you could stream internet radio or spotify....you could simply buy a bluetooth receiver or wireless receiver....because buying sonos wouldnt improve sound quality by a margin that would warrant the extra expense.if i could stream lossless quality sound through it....i would be tempted.....but so far it seems the back catologues for lossless arent very large....so again i would be struggling to warrant the expense.maybe that is one of the new uodates coming to sonos??

OK, well I'm not one of the attack dogs, but it really does depend on what you're comparing. If you're comparing your notional £1600 hifi system with a Sonos Play 3 or Play 5, then you might have a case. But if you're comparing a £500 CD player with a Sonos Connect as a source, then I'd say the attack dogs are right: there really won't be any difference.

As for "lossless" streaming, again it depends what you mean. You can stream lossless files from a hard drive with a Sonos Connect. Lovely. Alternatively you can stream Spotify Premium through a Sonos Connect. Also lovely.

I'm really loving the concept of you as an 'attack spaniel'....... 8)

For £1600 you can get a Sonos Connect and, if you are prepared to venture to the dark side, a pair of ADM9s. Outstanding vfm.

 

[The_Lhc]

I didnt realise that the android phones would use the MESH protocol on WiFi,

One point of order (simply because it's bugging me), it's not a protocol and MESH is not an acronym, it's simply a description of the network that Sonos devices setup amongst themselves, it's a meshed network, which many people shorten to mesh but it doesn't stand for anything.

 

[The_Lhc]

As for "lossless" streaming, again it depends what you mean. You can stream lossless files from a hard drive with a Sonos Connect.

Probably one of these people that now hold the opinion that only 24-bit audio is truly lossless and audiophile... THere was someone on the Sonos forum the other week stating as FACT that CD wasn't an audiophile source...

 

[BigH]

As for "lossless" streaming, again it depends what you mean. You can stream lossless files from a hard drive with a Sonos Connect.

Probably one of these people that now hold the opinion that only 24-bit audio is truly lossless and audiophile... THere was someone on the Sonos forum the other week stating as FACT that CD wasn't an audiophile source...

If thats the case why have 32 bit then?

 

[fr0g]

As for "lossless" streaming, again it depends what you mean. You can stream lossless files from a hard drive with a Sonos Connect.

Probably one of these people that now hold the opinion that only 24-bit audio is truly lossless and audiophile... THere was someone on the Sonos forum the other week stating as FACT that CD wasn't an audiophile source...

If we are being totally correct about this, then CD isn't lossless. It chucks away frequencies above that which we can hear.

But then if we took that logic then there is no lossless format, at all. Digital is bound by its bit depth, and analogue by physics.

 

[John Duncan]

There was someone on the Sonos forum the other week stating as FACT that CD wasn't an audiophile source...

Dunno what he was doing on the forum then, since that's all Sonos can manage...

 

[The_Lhc]

There was someone on the Sonos forum the other week stating as FACT that CD wasn't an audiophile source...

Dunno what he was doing on the forum then, since that's all Sonos can manage...

I think that was his point. There's a long-running request thread for 24-bit audio over there.

 

[markvh1]

Right, I don't know if this is off topic or not. But perhaps some of you can help me. I am now in upgrade mode. I now have ATC SCM50 ASLT Active tower speakers with ATC CDA2 preamp. At the moment I stream FLAC and AAC files to a Sonos Connect (ZP90) to a Chord QBD76 DAC then to the preamp.

Does anyone know if I will get a definite change/improvement in sound if I change the Sonos Connect to a dedicated streamer (without a DAC, something like the Cyrus Streamer X or X2 or the Chord Electronics mx series IX streamer etc) and connect to the Chord QBD76 DAC? Or is a dedicated streamer just a streamer simply moving digital bits to the DAC?

Thanks for your help.

 

[matt49]

If there are sonic differences between streamers, then they're probably inaudible, except in some extreme cases.

By extreme cases, I mean streaming boxes that are badly implemented or use very noisy switched-mode power supplies. Two examples: there's a known issue with the USB implementation of the Mac Mini with Mavericks (not exactly a streamer, I know, but often used as one), which causes HF comb filter effects. Also in my system the native Sonos Connect sounds relatively poor compared to modded Connects (e.g. by Wyred4Sound or Fidelity Audio) -- done the blind tests, got the T-shirt.

So my answer to your question would be: any streamer that's properly engineered and implemented should sound transparent. But some aren't and don't.

A cheaper alternative to the Cyrus and possibly offering better SQ than a native Connect might be something like the Bluesound Node at £399. It seems to tick almost all the boxes for functionality. I haven't tried it, so couldn't say whether it is sonically transparent.

Matt

 

[markvh1]

Thanks.

Still confused though. You first say that there are sonic differences between streamers, probably inaudible except in extreme cases. Then you say, "Also in my system the native Sonos Connect sounds relatively poor compared to modded Connects (e.g. by Wyred4Sound or Fidelity Audio) -- done the blind tests, got the T-shirt."

So maybe I should consider looking into a modded Sonos Connect connected to my Chord QBD76 DAC to further enhance the listening pleasure.

 

[The_Lhc]

Also in my system the native Sonos Connect sounds relatively poor compared to modded Connects (e.g. by Wyred4Sound or Fidelity Audio) -- done the blind tests, got the T-shirt.

I can't remember the thread you talked about this in, are you using the analogue outputs or the digital one from the Connects in this comparison?

 

[davedotco]

Some time ago I was able to compare the standard Connect woth the W4S (Cullen) moded version using the digital outs at fixed level.

Not particularly scientific but the modded unit certainly seemed to be better in all respects, at times I was not told which unit was playing but the modded player was invariably better to my ears. The playback system was decent rather than exceptional so i would expect the results to be audible on most systems.

Matt's system is of course seriously good, not surprising the difference is obvious.

 

[matt49]

Still confused though. You first say that there are sonic differences between streamers, probably inaudible except in extreme cases. Then you say, "Also in my system the native Sonos Connect sounds relatively poor compared to modded Connects (e.g. by Wyred4Sound or Fidelity Audio) -- done the blind tests, got the T-shirt."

So maybe I should consider looking into a modded Sonos Connect connected to my Chord QBD76 DAC to further enhance the listening pleasure.

By "in extreme cases" I meant e.g. using a native Sonos Connect in what's sometimes called a "high-end" system, which latter descriptor arguably applies to mine.

You could try a modded Sonos Connect, as you describe. It depends how wedded you are to Sonos, as there may be cheaper ways to get the same result, e.g. the Bluesound Node that I suggested.

I can't remember the thread you talked about this in, are you using the analogue outputs or the digital one from the Connects in this comparison?

I can't remember where or even if I posted about the blind tests. If I did, it would probably have been spring/summer 2013. Not very helpful, I know. I've certainly mentioned my preference for the modded Connects a few times and have been challenged on the subject by one or two of the good folk of this parish.

I was (and am) using the SPDIF coax output.

 

[Happy_Listner]

The CEO at Sonos says he hates audiophiles as their suggestions for better sound quality cut into his profits in producing (c)rap for the masses.

 

[andyjm]

I have become a bit of a Sonos convert. Partly because of the excellent and highly competent support I received with a very tricky network issue, and partly because the Play:1 is a fine bit of kit for the price.

As a squeezebox fan from the early days when Sean Adams (the founder of Slimdevices) would have forum conversations about streamer design issues, I always looked down on Sonos as a 'lifestyle' product. I still think it is, but it would be wrong to dismiss Sonos because of that.

There is a post somewhere in this thread that Sonos has abandoned its audiophile roots - I dont think it has ever had any - that is not the market they are after. A small bunch of weirdos arguing about imagined differences in their interconnects is never a big enough market to support a firm like Sonos - it needs volume sales and wider market appeal.

So, as to audiophile grade streamers - a streamer's job is to act as an interface between some sort of file system and a DAC. The DAC may be internal to the streamer, may be a separate box, or may be in an amp or receiver.

There are three ways a streamer can make a difference to the final audio quality:

1. Get the bits wrong - There is no streamer I know of that gets the bits wrong.

2. Send the bits at the wrong time - Back in the day, DACs would derive their clock using basic PLL techniques from the streamer's S/PDIF bitstream. In simple terms, the clock in the streamer would effectively be used to clock the DAC. This was never a good plan, and (hopefully) most modern DACs have jitter mitigation circuitry to avoid these problems.

3. Dump noise into the mains supply - There are specs for this sort of thing, and any decently designed amp or DAC shoud be able to cope with 'in spec' noise on the mains.

The Sonos connect is not the pinacle of streamer design. It has middling jitter performace, and can't cope with HiRes. As has been discussed elsewhere, HiRes is all about marketing not sound quality, but if that's what you want, then Sonos can't provide it. As for 'audiophile', I would argue that used with a decent separate DAC that is insensitive to input jitter, there is no reason why the Sonos streamer would sound any worse (or better come to that) than any other streamer.

Edit: Just looked at the 'mods' available for the connect. Dont really see the point.

Wyred4sound replace the clock in the connect to improve jitter performance - waste of time in my opinion. The clock belongs in the DAC not the streamer. Dont buy the upgrade, buy a better DAC.

Fidelity Audio replace the PSU and fiddle with some of the analogue components. While I don't think there is much wrong with the analogue output of the connect, most 'audiophiles' will be using a separate DAC - in which case who cares about the PSU or the analogue output of the connect?

 

[davedotco]

I have become a bit of a Sonos convert. Partly because of the excellent and highly competent support I received with a very tricky network issue, and partly because the Play:1 is a fine bit of kit for the price.

As a squeezebox fan from the early days when Sean Adams (the founder of Slimdevices) would have forum conversations about streamer design issues, I always looked down on Sonos as a 'lifestyle' product. I still think it is, but it would be wrong to dismiss Sonos because of that.

There is a post somewhere in this thread that Sonos has abandoned its audiophile roots - I dont think it has ever had any - that is not the market they are after. A small bunch of weirdos arguing about imagined differences in their interconnects is never a big enough market to support a firm like Sonos - it needs volume sales and wider market appeal.

So, as to audiophile grade streamers - a streamer's job is to act as an interface between some sort of file system and a DAC. The DAC may be internal to the streamer, may be a separate box, or may be in an amp or receiver.

There are three ways a streamer can make a difference to the final audio quality:

1. Get the bits wrong - There is no streamer I know of that gets the bits wrong.

2. Send the bits at the wrong time - Back in the day, DACs would derive their clock using basic PLL techniques from the streamer's S/PDIF bitstream. In simple terms, the clock in the streamer would effectively be used to clock the DAC. This was never a good plan, and (hopefully) most modern DACs have jitter mitigation circuitry to avoid these problems.

3. Dump noise into the mains supply - There are specs for this sort of thing, and any decently designed amp or DAC shoud be able to cope with 'in spec' noise on the mains.

The Sonos connect is not the pinacle of streamer design. It has middling jitter performace, and can't cope with HiRes. As has been discussed elsewhere, HiRes is all about marketing not sound quality, but if that's what you want, then Sonos can't provide it. As for 'audiophile', I would argue that used with a decent separate DAC that is insensitive to input jitter, there is no reason why the Sonos streamer would sound any worse (or better come to that) than any other streamer.

Edit: Just looked at the 'mods' available for the connect. Dont really see the point.

Wyred4sound replace the clock in the connect to improve jitter performance - waste of time in my opinion. The clock belongs in the DAC not the streamer. Dont buy the upgrade, buy a better DAC.

Fidelity Audio replace the PSU and fiddle with some of the analogue components. While I don't think there is much wrong with the analogue output of the connect, most 'audiophiles' will be using a separate DAC - in which case who cares about the PSU or the analogue output of the connect?

Nice summation, if I needed a multiroom solution Sonos would be my first stop. doesn't do everything quite the way I would like but the compromises are minimal.

One pont that I would take issue with is your final thoughts on SQ, I have been lucky enough to hear a standard Connect and the W4S (Cullen) modded version. For whatever reason the mods provide a decent upgrade with an external dac, so I would use this in my main system. Standard product would be more than adequate everywhere else.

For a single system, I might be inclined to look elswhere, but then I do not use a local library, NAS or otherwise, and other products have better online streaming options. If I was streaming from a NAS I might well think differently, the Sonos is a very 'complete' system.

 

[tino]

... partly because the Play:1 is a fine bit of kit for the price.

As a squeezebox fan ....

Another Squeezebox fan but I've just got into a Play:1 and think it's an excellent product. I was always put off a bit by the price, but the sweetener was the current promotion ... see http://www.whathifi.com/forum/hot-deals/sonos-5-yr-guarantee-1-year-free-deezer-premium

 

[Iknowyouall2]

Interesting comments on here. When I took early retirement some four years ago, I decided to sell my CD player and 'upgrade' to a streaming system. Sonos seemed the obvious choice though to ensure best available quality and after much research, I decided to buy an Audiocom modified Sonos ZP90 Signature. I loved the user interface and the technology involved in streaming music from a NAS having ripped my Cd collection to flac files. But I was never really happy with the sound quality. I coupled the kit using high quality mains leads and subsequently bought a rather expensive Teddy Pardo DAC (and equally expensive coax lead!) and the sound improved somewhat. I persevered with the system for a couple of years then one day, just to see what would happen, I substituted the Sonos with an OPPO 93 Blu Ray player which I had bought for a new cinema room in the house. The difference was staggering. How on earth could a front end which was primarily a DVD spinner sound so damn good! Initially the only way of selecting music was via the TV which was a bit clumsy but with the advent of the OPPO phone app., the user interface is now excellent and comparable with that of the Sonos. Anyway I reluctantly sold my Sonos kit and bought another OPPO to replace it and I am very happy with the sound quality now. Quite an expensive learning curve! So I'm not knocking Sonos in any way but I don't think it is true hi-fi (whatever that is!) at least not to my ears....

 

[nopiano]

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for the interesting tale. Glad you've found something better for you. I've long seen the Oppo as bit of a 'sleeper' here, and see that modded versions with valves are sold in the US. I'd not hesitate to get one if my Krell spinner blows up, though fifteen years on it seems to be going strong.

Incidentally, re streaming, I just found some upgrades for my old SB Touch, so I can now stream Qobuz on my hifi, not just to my airplay speaker. ickStream is the term to google.