Will Sonos ever offer audiophile grade streamers?

[admin_exported]

I love my Sonos, but want higher resolution capability and the ability to upgrade the power supply. Sonos started with Audiophiles, but is now targeting mainstream. The all in one boxes and standard iPhone trend is fine, but it has so much more potential.

When will the relook at their core target market and innovate?

 

[nopiano]

I suspect Naim and others have got too much of a grip on the higher end. Sonos, as you imply, seem more like Apple. Looks cool, works first time, and lots of profit margin. I rather think they completely understand their core market!

Have you seen this?

http://www.whathifi.com/news/arcam-rseries-sonlink-dac-designed-for-sonos

I suspect the upgrade route is where any gains in performance will come from. Mind you, a sub-woofer at £599 isn't exactly cheap, especially if you add on two Play 5s.

 

[CnoEvil]

It's a good question.

As I see it, there are at least 3 problems:

1. The people who actually care, make up a very small part of the market

2. The brands that are already there and established, set a high standard, so market penetration would take considerable effort and cost.

3. They are very succesful filling the need at their end of the market, and the risk / cost in moving away from this could be high (marketing, Firmware costs, R&D, costs related to extra SKUs, labour and possible tooling for new product lines etc etc)

I will probably be proved wrong!

 

[eggontoast]

Why would they bother yet, hi res downloads/music is so small that it's insignificant and probably always will be. The next big white elephant, I think they have the major target market covered.

 

[chebby]

In Clare Newsome's August 2011 'Inside Sonos' report their annual turnover was expected to be around $250,000,000 that year.

Even assuming it hasn't increased since then (unlikely), Sonos could probably buy out the entirety of the UK hi-fi manufacturing sector - a couple of times over - and still have change for a nice fish supper and a taxi home.

I expect they know their market pretty well and will do the the hi-res thing (or not) just exactly when (if) it ever seems profitable enough to do so.

 

[manicm]

I love my Sonos, but want higher resolution capability and the ability to upgrade the power supply. Sonos started with Audiophiles, but is now targeting mainstream. The all in one boxes and standard iPhone trend is fine, but it has so much more potential.

When will the relook at their core target market and innovate?

An instant way to improve its sound is to connect it to a DAC - have you done so yet?

PS. To my knowledge Sonos never catered to the pure audiophile, yet their latest Connects are the best sounding yet I believe.

 

[fr0g]

High resoltution is a white elephant to gain more cash and of no value sonically(unless you are a mosquito), we simply need more high quality mastering. I would rather have a Sonos than any "high end" streamer TBH, as the apps and interface will be better. One reason I am unhappy with the loss of Squeezebox going forward.

All IMO.

 

[The_Lhc]

their latest Connects are the best sounding yet I believe.

What makes you think that? My understanding is that nothing has changed within the Connect since it was released as the ZP90.

 

[Overdose]

I love my Sonos, but want higher resolution capability and the ability to upgrade the power supply. Sonos started with Audiophiles, but is now targeting mainstream. The all in one boxes and standard iPhone trend is fine, but it has so much more potential.

When will the relook at their core target market and innovate?

What is wrong with the power supply it comes with, have you run any tests to come to this conclusion that it needs another?

Also, what would you consider an 'audiophile' version to be?

They're expensive enough as it is without any extra audio phoolery bling. It works and doesn't need changing and as The_Lhc has pointed out, the latest rendition is really just a set of new clothes, so obviously Sonos don't see any need to tinker.

Higher than CD resolution files do not in themselves guarantee better sound quality. CD resolution is capable of all the dynamic range that the most aurally gifted person could ever hear. The trick is in the mastering of the recording and not the file type or resolution.

 

[richardw42]

I agree with what's been said. I have no thoughts of going from my Sonos to a so called audiophile streamer. Does anything else on the market quite have the functionality of Sonos. The latest update which gives airplay like usability. Why would I want to spend more on something that offers less and gives practically impercibtible sq improvements.

Video would be a nice cherry.

Op, you know how good Sonos is, IMO you've got the best multi room system going.

 

[staggerlee]

If you want to mess around upgrading, adding power supplies then get the naim streamer. What sonos does it does very well and the reason for it's success is its simplicity. High res - a lot of nonsense. The majority of people are not interested hence no reason for record companies to offer it.

 

[Anonymous]

Sonos' reputation is founded by the few audiophiles (like us) that begun with Sonos a while back, and this credibility helps them. So I think product innovation should still keep going regardless of initial profitability.

I use a QBD 76 DAC and don't mean upgrading the dac, but upgrading the transport part, the streaming quality. I've no issue with the Sonos products, I just think they are missing more, and I would buy a higher quality product, at least on my reference system.

 

[MajorFubar]

I demo'd a Sonos a while back. Well actually demo'd is a bit strong a word; I turned it on in PC World and listened to some music they were streaming to it from an iPod. Even accepting all the shortcomings of the listening environment, it still sounded naff. I forget the exact model but at £300 it was knocking-on-the-door of the price you can buy a good budget amp and speakers for, certainly so if you go second hand, yet it was mono and sounded about as good as the £60 Pure DAB radio in my kitchen.

 

[bigboss]

I queried Sonos' price as well before buying one:

http://www.whathifi.com/forum/wi-fi/why-is-sonos-so-expensive

But after I bought it, I realised what a serious bit of tech this is. Now I don't think it's expensive at all. It's the technology you pay for.

 

[The_Lhc]

I demo'd a Sonos a while back. Well actually demo'd is a bit strong a word; I turned it on in PC World and listened to some music they were streaming to it from an iPod. Even accepting all the shortcomings of the listening environment, it still sounded naff. I forget the exact model but at £300 it was knocking-on-the-door of the price you can buy a good budget amp and speakers for, certainly so if you go second hand, yet it was mono and sounded about as good as the £60 Pure DAB radio in my kitchen.

That was probably a Play:3 and isn't what's being discussed in this thread, we're (mostly) talking about the Connect, which has digital and analogue outputs for use with existing amplifiers, using the digital output into a DAC it'll sound pretty much the same as any other 16-bit digital source.

 

[The_Lhc]

I use a QBD 76 DAC and don't mean upgrading the dac, but upgrading the transport part, the streaming quality. I've no issue with the Sonos products, I just think they are missing more, and I would buy a higher quality product, at least on my reference system.

The Connect has been proven to give a bit-perfect output, what more do you want (other than 24-bit support and let's not start that argument again)?

 

[eggontoast]

The Connect has been proven to give a bit-perfect output,

It certainly passes the bit perfect test into my m-dac.

 

[The_Lhc]

The Connect has been proven to give a bit-perfect output,

It certainly passes the bit perfect test into my m-dac.

Huzzah!

 

[MajorFubar]

That was probably a Play:3 and isn't what's being discussed in this thread, we're (mostly) talking about the Connect, which has digital and analogue outputs for use with existing amplifiers, using the digital output into a DAC it'll sound pretty much the same as any other 16-bit digital source.

Fair enough I'll butt out of the convo. I only read the o/p's initial post, which to me was a comment generally about Sonos products, so I gave an opinion about the only Sonos product I've heard. I agree about the Connect. I'm pretty sure what I listened to though was the 5 not the 3; they had a smaller one there which I took to be the Play:3. I didn't listen to that; I don't think it was rigged up.

 

[richardw42]

I'm quite surprised. I think the play 3 is terrific for what it is.

I have one in each bedroom. I really need to try them in stereo mode.

 

[The_Lhc]

That was probably a Play:3 and isn't what's being discussed in this thread, we're (mostly) talking about the Connect, which has digital and analogue outputs for use with existing amplifiers, using the digital output into a DAC it'll sound pretty much the same as any other 16-bit digital source.

Fair enough I'll butt out of the convo. I only read the o/p's initial post, which to me was a comment generally about Sonos products, so I gave an opinion about the only Sonos product I've heard. I agree about the Connect. I'm pretty sure what I listened to though was the 5 not the 3; they had a smaller one there which I took to be the Play:3. I didn't listen to that; I don't think it was rigged up.

I'm slightly surprised then, the Play:5 gets pretty decent reviews (and can be configured as a stereo pair but for double the price obviously but hey, it's active, ergo, must be the best sounding system ever!).

One other point, what amp and speakers would you recommend for £300 all-in then? Bear in mind you need to include a source as well...

 

[MajorFubar]

I didn't mention source, I said amp and speakers
As for which ones, well the newest budget speakers I've ever heard are the Q-Acoustics 2020, I thought they sounded brilliant, and the 'i' version won a WHF awardf last year. Amp? No idea, but £150 should find something that will drive them well.

Don't get me wrong I can see the market for them, but in SQ terms alone, I can't say I was moved. The ones I listened to were £300 each, so that's £600 for a stereo pair. I've been away from the new hifi scene for a while, but I'm confident that for £600 I could walk into a HiFi shop with the same money and put together a simple system which would blow them out the water sonically. But that's not the full story of course if you need the additional flexibility and features, and I appreciate that.

 

[The_Lhc]

I didn't mention source, I said amp and speakers

I know, but the Play series are amp, speakers AND source, in one package, so you need to include that in your price comparisons!

As for which ones, well the newest budget speakers I've ever heard are the Q-Acoustics 2020, I thought they sounded brilliant, and the 'i' version won a WHF awardf last year. Amp? No idea, but £150 should find something that will drive them well. Don't get me wrong I can see the market for them, but in SQ terms alone, I can't say I was moved. The ones I listened to were £300 each, so that's £600 for a stereo pair. I've been away from the new hifi scene for a while, but I'm confident that for £600 I could walk into a HiFi shop with the same money and put together a simple system which would blow them out the water sonically. But that's not the full story of course if you need the additional flexibility and features, and I appreciate that.

I don't think I'd be moved by anything in PC World, I've stood in the big Curry's "demo" room and mucked about with various "proper" amp and speaker setups for quite some time and all I came away with was a ringing in my ears, it did nothing to help me tell one set of speakers from another.

 

[richardw42]

It's not really a good comparison. You buy Sonos for its functionality, its unfair to compare just amp & speakers. You'd have to get at least some type of streamer too.

I've just bought a play 3 for £209. Double and that's £418. So you'd need to buy a streamer, amp and speakers. More clutter. A pair of play 3s would make a simple solution for a bedroom / bedsit.

 

[andyjm]

In answer to the OP, Sonos devices use WiFi to create a MESH network. This is involves each device in the MESH receiving and rebroadcasting the WiFi signal. While it is more robust than simple point to point WiFi, it takes up hardware and WiFi bandwidth resources. As a result, the current Sonos architechture won't cope with HiRes. Sonos would have to launch a separate range for HiRes that wouldn't fit with the current range, and I guess they don't see the market for it. Much angst on the Sonos forum about this.

As for audiophile, the 'Connect' has a middling reputation for jitter, over 200pS RMS if I recall correctly. If your DAC is sensitive to jitter, then this may matter. If your DAC is insensitive to jitter, then the connect will be just as good as any other streamer you might buy.

Why would you want to change the power supply?