Will CDs ever go Hi-Res?

[radiorog]

Luxman has launched a couple of players, the D 10x a snip @£14,999

Bargain!

 

[radiorog]

Have you seen KI's (probably indeed) last recorded demonstration? I

Is that his latest, its over 2 years old? Although that amp looks nice, will check out some of the vid later.

 

[Gray]

Thanks Gray, cheers, yeah one of the luckier ones, still waiting for the last 5% to shift off before I do a real dance of joy, but confident it will. I actually had my jab 2 weeks before I fell ill. Going by the incubation period I think I was likely to have picked up the virus 1 week after I had vaccine, so the vaccine hadnt had enough enough time to do its thing. Apparently it takes 2-3 weeks for the vaccine to work.

There's a real lesson there that might help to avoid complacency in others

 

[Deleted member 108165]

Is that his latest, its over 2 years old? Although that amp looks nice, will check out some of the vid later.

Yes that is/was his latest as he passed away in 2019.

 

[radiorog]

There's a real lesson there that might help to avoid complacency in others

For sure, even myself. I wish I'd have acted faster on the uptakes in early December. By the time I looked into it a couple of weeks later they had all gone.

 

[radiorog]

Yes that is/was his latest as he passed away in 2019.

Oh no! Thats sad. Originally I thought you were referring to Pursuit perfect sytem guy, glad hes ok! Well I'll definitely check out the vid.

 

[Wil]

Is that his latest, its over 2 years old? Although that amp looks nice, will check out some of the vid later.

Pardon, that KI part was really for Doug (because he has…

Actually, Ken addressed "the-problem-of-Hi-Res-audio" (now time-coded for you) at 29m26s:

 

[insider9]

Sorry for late reply (to all), have been recovering from covid and getting back to work. Thankfully it wasnt too bad, but enough to keep me off work for a couple of weeks (would have taken time off even if hadnt needed to isolate). 95% over it now.....

Yeah, so the benefits I was envisaging were that I can clearly hear the difference on my system from regular bluetooth to Aptx, to was presuming I would hear subtle but significant differences in other digital source upgrades. Was thinking that as people are into Hi-res music, and most people seem to be saying that there is a difference between this and CD quality, so I was thinking could you not then put those Hi-res files straight onto disc, to be played, albeit on an upgraded player. And if there is no difference in quality, then why is Hi-res a thing?

Hi Insider, it wasnt actually me (OP) replying to your original question, but what would I expect to hear? Well I was thinking of hearing the same step up in performance that other people hear from CD up to Hi-res files. Maybe slightly more analogue sound, more nuances in music.
Aptx HD goes up to 24/48. Does this mean it can potentially sound as good as wired listening at this level?

Cheers appreciate the reply. Don't worry about however long it took.

I'm glad to hear you're ok and I sincerely hope you're back to 100% in no time. Just the fact you're on a hifi forum is great news indeed.

I don't see the correlation between bit depth and sampling rate and sound quality.

I appreciate that we'd all want music to sound the best it can. But all that matter is if it moves us irrespective of how good it sounds. Often the charm is in the imperfections.

Limitation will always be at the point of recording. And if it was a digital 16/44.1 recording it will be all it can ever be.

If the recordings were done at 24/192 and we can buy them great. But I object to being sold 24/192 version of a 16/44.1 recording. I can do the conversion myself at no charge, thank you. Not that I'd want to.

The transparency with these things is not great and there is misconception that because it is "hi-res" it will sound better. I would also not assume that different automatically means better.

 

[Oldfart]

Hi radiorig,

re: upscaling RP. The Marantz KI Ruby pictured above is a good example of the various approaches to improve, or perhaps smooth without loss of detail is more appropriate, 16/44.1 Files. Ken Ishawata , RIP, adopted up conversion of PCM to high speed 1bit DSD (SACD is DSD). It then does not need a DAC chip, just filters to output analogue. First player was the SA10 and others have joined the Marantz range. PS audio have been doing this for years and UKs high end dCS has its own proprietary ring DAC which can upsample to DXD.

My streamer/ DAC is a more modest TEAC. it has dual AKM4497 chips that were top of the range and can upsample to either DSD512 or up to 8 times PCM. Ie 352.8. Have tried both and stuck with the PCM. There are then 5 pcm filters and 2 DSD! I’m listening to RP as I Write and sounds nearly as good as the Mark Knophler SACD I listened to earlier, but I’m not really concentrating so not a fair comparison! I cannot quantify the benefits of upscaling, or the various filters - just hit on a combo that sounds right and resist the temptation to fiddle.
I agree with insider9, in that it ultimately matters little about the numbers, if it sounds right, I would disagree,however, that 16/44.1 files cannot be improved.
Edit to add:
the akm4497 has been superseded by the 4499. Nothing stands still for long in DAC world so better to keep them separate from your amp, imho. Even better potentially, is a more sophisticated dual chip combo which separates the upsampling from the DAC chip, the AKM4498 and this
Delta sigma upconverter
how good will RP or a CD sound when played through these upscaled by 256 times is anyone’s guess.

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Do some players allow you to choose which layer is read? The OPPO defaults to SACD, so doesn't give the option (unless it's buried somewhere in the menus - and even if it is the MF player is better with CD, so not sure there's a point in my trying). That'd make for interesting double blind testing.

Turns out you can choose with the OPPO, so I spent half an hour trying to get it set up properly - time wasted alas. The output was quiet, and had an echo in it that was present whichever layer was chosen. Utterly inconclusive.

 

[Terry Webb]

Couldn't see where best to ask this question.... but as title, could CD's ever go hi-res quality and move up bitrate and sampling levels, and if not why not? Simple question i'm sure.
Cheers!

Couldn't see where best to ask this question.... but as title, could CD's ever go hi-res quality and move up bitrate and sampling levels, and if not why not? Simple question i'm sure.
Cheers!

I have seen something called, "MQA CD". That is supposed to have higher quality playback with the CDs playable on standard players. But sadly, I haven't seen much choice.

 

[TrevC]

I have seen something called, "MQA CD". That is supposed to have higher quality playback with the CDs playable on standard players. But sadly, I haven't seen much choice.

I'm sure anyone can imagine they hear a difference.

 

[iMark]

Especially if their player is connected to the mains with an ultra special power lead.

Confirmation bias is a wonderful thing.

 

[Oldfart]

Down to scraping the barrel as usual.

 

[michael hoy]

There is definitely a difference to be heard on the blu ray audio and you can change it on the fly.

 

[TrevC]

Down to scraping the barrel as usual.

I see you have specially expensive power leads. Oh dear, LOL.

 

[Oldfart]

TrevC,
You are obviously a discerning gentleman, so would highly recommend that you try some rather than spouting relentless, dismissive, mocking criticism at other people’s choices. As we do not know your set up, have to guess that it highly resolving and thus would make even small improvements obvious If they make no difference to your system, fair enough, but I have no regrets whatsoever in adding them to mine. My ears, my money and very happy indeed with my SQ

 

[iMark]

However, the fact simply remains that there always was and will be confirmation bias when it comes to audio equipment. I really don't care what people spend their money on regarding audio equipment.

What I don't like is when tinkerers with a load of cash start advising other people on a limited budget on what to buy and start recommending esoteric cables that people really don't need.

 

[Wil]

Couldn't see where best to ask this question.... but as title, could CD's ever go hi-res quality and move up bitrate and sampling levels, and if not why not? Simple question i'm sure.
Cheers!

Recalling your initial question, regarding the 12cm disc, I notice companies adopting D+M's SACD-M3 transport mechanism e.g. dCs & Playback Designs.

From my own player's product description:
"This new mechanism promises exceptional sound quality from conventional CD and SA-CD discs and allows listeners to create their own high-resolution audio compilation discs using a computer DVD burner. The SA-KI Ruby supports FLAC files from 44.1kHz to 192kHz at up to 24-bit resolution, DSD2.8MHz and DSD 5.6MHz, ALAC (Apple Lossless), AIFF and MP3 files. Creating and playing hi-res disc compilations is as simple as it is enjoyable."

 

[iMark]

IMHO it's a lot of faffing about. You get the best sound from a CD by ripping it with error correction on to lossless files. Then move the lossless files to a USB device or stream them lossless to your audio system. Simply eliminate the spinning disc from the equation.

 

[TrevC]

TrevC,
You are obviously a discerning gentleman, so would highly recommend that you try some rather than spouting relentless, dismissive, mocking criticism at other people’s choices. As we do not know your set up, have to guess that it highly resolving and thus would make even small improvements obvious If they make no difference to your system, fair enough, but I have no regrets whatsoever in adding them to mine. My ears, my money and very happy indeed with my SQ

What should I try? Mains leads don't affect performance because they can't. You've been had old chap.

 

[Friesiansam]

My ears, my money and very happy indeed with my SQ

Ultimately, that's what matters.

 

[Friesiansam]

IMHO it's a lot of faffing about. You get the best sound from a CD by ripping it with error correction on to lossless files. Then move the lossless files to a USB device or stream them lossless to your audio system. Simply eliminate the spinning disc from the equation.

I've just started trying Exact Audio Copy on the PC. Seems to work rather well, though takes a lot of faffing going through the myriad settings and that is with a walkthrough to guide me.

On the first CD I tried ripping to FLAC with EAC, it found 988 more samples than the existing rip, suggesting the old rip may have been lacking some detail. Whether that would be noticeable is another matter...

BTW, I ran the rip twice and it found the same number of samples both times. It also spent some time error correcting in the same place both times, despite the CD being spotless.

 

[michael hoy]

Try dbPoweramp, it's not free but is easy to use and does a very good job.

There is a 21 day trial

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I've just started trying Exact Audio Copy on the PC. Seems to work rather well, though takes a lot of faffing going through the myriad settings and that is with a walkthrough to guide me.

On the first CD I tried ripping to FLAC with EAC, it found 988 more samples than the existing rip, suggesting the old rip may have been lacking some detail. Whether that would be noticeable is another matter...

BTW, I ran the rip twice and it found the same number of samples both times. It also spent some time error correcting in the same place both times, despite the CD being spotless.

EAC is a very good piece of software, been using it for years with great success. Once you've entered your drive details and selected user preferences it's really easy to use, plus has plenty of tools at your disposal. Does exactly the same job as dBPoweramp, but it's free. I've had several used CDs which my player has refused to play but EAC managed to rip them all. I run it in the test and copy setting.