Why does my hifi system sound lean?

[plastic penguin]

He is using isoacoustics pucks

But it's still not doing as good a job as dedicated stands or brackets.

A hi-fi will only work to its optimal performance if the placement is right. On a cabinet with any of the gizmos won't be anything than disappointing.

I shouldn't have to tell you this. You are experienced

 

[robdmarsh]

Ah ok, at last. So here's a picture of my room. Admittedly, the picture is distorted because it's a panorama to be able to get everything in. But as you can see, the speakers have all kinds of crap in between them. They are actually about 10 feet apart and my listening position on the sofa is about 8 foot from either speaker, so not ideal.

 

[robdmarsh]

The sound produced by this squewiff set up(sorry, don't know how to spell that word) is meaty, beaty, big and bouncy! (apologies again, couldn't resist it! Where's that from? God knows how good it could sound if I actually had a proper listening room.

 

[OllieC]

The sound produced by this squewiff set up(sorry, don't know how to spell that word) is meaty, beaty, big and bouncy! (apologies again, couldn't resist it! Where's that from? God knows how good it could sound if I actually had a proper listening room.

Very well described - know exactly what you mean! The shot I took was a wide-angle too - the Metas are 7ft apart and I'm sat 10ft from the speakers.
I notice you have named a power supply in your system signature - does that make a difference to the sound?

 

[robdmarsh]

Well, this was the real eye opener for me and really changed things up. I bought an ifi Zen blue which I had read good things about - even the snobby AVForums gave it a 10 for sound quality, (most of the people on their forum wouldn't touch Bluetooth with a barge pole) but anyway when I shelled out my £129 and hooked it up I was surprised at the sound. I had the little Marantz at the time and I was connecting via digital so I thought what would it sound like with the DAC in the Zen blue and hooked it up with a decent interconnect. Definite step up in sound quality. Then I read about the iPower power supply, £50, and thought why not give it a shot? Another very perceptible step up in SQ.
Bluetooth means the band width of the sound is being compressed and many audio boffins turn their noses up at it but the Zen blue is blooming brilliant for what it is. I probably will get a dedicated streamer though to see how far I can take this little system.
You've got the elements of a good system there, I'm sure you have. You just need someone who knows about wiring and setting up an on wall solution correctly.
Have you ever been to a bar where they're playing music and thought "That's pretty good sound", and looked up and seen speakers on wall brackets? I know I have.

 

[OllieC]

Well, this was the real eye opener for me and really changed things up. I bought an ifi Zen blue which I had read good things about - even the snobby AVForums gave it a 10 for sound quality, (most of the people on their forum wouldn't touch Bluetooth with a barge pole) but anyway when I shelled out my £129 and hooked it up I was surprised at the sound. I had the little Marantz at the time and I was connecting via digital so I thought what would it sound like with the DAC in the Zen blue and hooked it up with a decent interconnect. Definite step up in sound quality. Then I read about the iPower power supply, £50, and thought why not give it a shot? Another very perceptible step up in SQ.
Bluetooth means the band width of the sound is being compressed and many audio boffins turn their noses up at it but the Zen blue is blooming brilliant for what it is. I probably will get a dedicated streamer though to see how far I can take this little system.
You've got the elements of a good system there, I'm sure you have. You just need someone who knows about wiring and setting up an on wall solution correctly.
Have you ever been to a bar where they're playing music and thought "That's pretty good sound", and looked up and seen speakers on wall brackets? I know I have.

Interesting. I hadn’t even considered Bluetooth - glad it’s worked out for you!
What is the iPower connected to - the Zen or the amp?
I’ve ordered a coaxial cable so I can test out the DAC in the Arcam - it’s all just trial and error!

 

[robdmarsh]

The iPower is connected to the Zen. Read up about ifi online. They are a very interesting little company and they produce very well-focused and well-engineered products. The Zen blue is the most interesting audio product I've bought in years but then again I don't buy a lot and until quite recently, with my Triangle Titus, never high end.
I totally agree with your trial and error comment. I suppose the key is to avoid expensive errors. One way to progress I reckon is to borrow equipment to trial if you have a friend or family member who shares your audio passions!

 

[Deleted member 108165]

I've got my speakers on wall mounts and they work superbly to my ears, with no requirement for a sub. However, our speakers are different, mine are sealed boxes whereas I think yours have a bass port at the rear. Best bet is to experiment with placement using maybe a couple of stools as temporary stands, (use books or mags to get them close to ear height), you could even back them up against the wall either side of the fireplace to see if a wall mounted position would be viable.

Personally, I doubt cables would have any affect on the sound whatsoever.

 

[robdmarsh]

"Personally, I doubt cables would have any affect on the sound whatsoever. "

I think that's a pretty sweeping statement. I've experienced cables making a pretty significant difference to sound quality but I don't think you need to spend big bucks.

 

[Deleted member 108165]

"Personally, I doubt cables would have any affect on the sound whatsoever. "

I think that's a pretty sweeping statement. I've experienced cables making a pretty significant difference to sound quality but I don't think you need to spend big bucks.

I would rather spend money on kit than cables I'm not in the believer camp... been there done that heard no difference whatsoever.

 

[robdmarsh]

How are cables not "kit"? To my mind they are very much a crucial bit of kit since they are they carry the signal from your amp to your speakers. They also needn't cost hundreds or even four figures if you want to switch them out like speakers or other "kit"

 

[manicm]

I don't think a class A amp at 12wpc is going to drive something like the Metas very well do you?

Your statement still doesn't make any sense. After that point, whatever it is, the amp will switch to class a/b or whatever. Any amp at 12w is probably at moderate listening levels. And I repeat again, a class A amp is generally better suited to lower volumes than other amps because its current is constant and does not fluctuate like a class a/b.

 

[robdmarsh]

Do tell us how you get on, Ollie C.

 

[Al ears]

Your statement still doesn't make any sense. After that point, whatever it is, the amp will switch to class a/b or whatever. Any amp at 12w is probably at moderate listening levels. And I repeat again, a class A amp is generally better suited to lower volumes than other amps because its current is constant and does not fluctuate like a class a/b.

As you will, however I believe a 12wpc amp of any type is not going to drive the Metas well at low volumes.

 

[OllieC]

Do tell us how you get on, Ollie C.

Will do! Loads of advice to act on which is great. I’ll be in touch

 

[Edbostan]

I bought a hifi system that I've been using for around 5 months. It consists of the following components:

Arcam SA20 integrated amp
Kef LS50 Meta speakers
REL T5X sub
Bluesound Node streamer

I use the DAC of the BS Node and the amp/speakers are connected with some mid-range silver cable. The size of the room is around 5.5m x 4m and it is relatively dampened.

The sound is overall quite lean, which is particularly noticeable at lower volumes - mids and vocals don't have much weight to them and the bass is lacking. When the volume is turned up the bass is fine, but the vocals are still thin.

Any idea what the culprit(s) might be?

I have a pair of Kefs iq10s which have the tweeter also in the throat of bass unit. I know Kef has invested in this speaker design but personally I have criticism with it. I find the treble is too pronounced and its position decreases the bass cone surface so the bass is compromised. I would suggest loan another make of speaker and see if your criticism persists

 

[Edbostan]

Listen, believe me, I'm no spring chicken, I grew up with vinyl but I've never felt the urge to revisit balancing tone arms, changing out cartridges, combating static dust attraction, anti-skating, hunting down the best pressings of X album costing 30,40, xty quid etc, etc. Streaming can be bloody brilliant if you get it right, technology advancements have moved quality on and prices down so, no, I'm not too nostalgic for what we did "back in the day", .... but many on here would disagree with me!

I am also pleased to get shot of vinyl. I remember stereo LPs coming out to be an advancement on 78 rpm shellac records. My first system I suffered the static dust collection on LP surfaces and the renewal of styli, tracking weight, cartridge alignment, bias adjustment and my 45 singles being used as beer mats at parties.

 

[twinkletoes]

View attachment 3030View attachment 3031

Here are a couple of pictures of the room - be great to hear your thoughts.

Yes the sub is auto-sensing - it has the option to have always on or always off, so I could try switching to that. I've played around with the settings of the sub a bit and felt like I got into phase and an okay balance - but this is my first doing it so it's quite possible I haven't found the sweet spot with the settings.

looking at the room and speaker placement (though you probably can’t do much about it due to furniture. ) It’s very hard to set up a system along the long wall, though I’ve done it so is possible to get great results but you may never due to simple physics.

Firstly the units will be robbing the speakers of all there bass weight and mid range basically the sound will be inside the units there sitting on. You need to disconnect them some how. Experiment with blue tak/rubber balls cut in half ( there are better solutions but for now do it on the cheap) they also look very high especially when seated sending the sound over your head. Does it sound better when you stand up?

Subwoofer. Unless you amp has time alignment controls ie you can set the distances (delays) your sub needs to live on the same plain as your speakers. Your bass will be weak there (where it currently is) because it will be out of time with the rest of your speakers creating cancellations due to the miss alignment. Looks miss-aligned by a good meter.

In the first instance I’d say turn the subwoofer off and concentrate on getting the speakers placed just so.
do one thing at a time.

simple things to do while you play about. Grab a table chair/poof some you can sit on and move closer to the speakers and further away. There will be a place in the room where the sound really starts to firm up that will be the sweet spot to sit weather you can is diff. Oh and pull the speakers to very edge of the units ahead the of the fire place that will firm up the centre image. You should hear the sound coming from the centre under TV.

The next bit will be hard because of your furniture. Place the sub under the tv and the see what that sounds like then start moving it to the left and then the right and see what sounds good. I can seee where it’s needs to roughly go but your not going to be able to put it there.

Hope some of the helps. Do not spend money this is a room problem with patients you will get there.

 

[OllieC]

looking at the room and speaker placement (though you probably can’t do much about it due to furniture. ) It’s very hard to set up a system along the long wall, though I’ve done it so is possible to get great results but you may never due to simple physics.

Firstly the units will be robbing the speakers of all there bass weight and mid range basically the sound will be inside the units there sitting on. You need to disconnect them some how. Experiment with blue tak/rubber balls cut in half ( there are better solutions but for now do it on the cheap) they also look very high especially when seated sending the sound over your head. Does it sound better when you stand up?

Subwoofer. Unless you amp has time alignment controls ie you can set the distances (delays) your sub needs to live on the same plain as your speakers. Your bass will be weak there (where it currently is) because it will be out of time with the rest of your speakers creating cancellations due to the miss alignment. Looks miss-aligned by a good meter.

In the first instance I’d say turn the subwoofer off and concentrate on getting the speakers placed just so.
do one thing at a time.

simple things to do while you play about. Grab a table chair/poof some you can sit on and move closer to the speakers and further away. There will be a place in the room where the sound really starts to firm up that will be the sweet spot to sit weather you can is diff. Oh and pull the speakers to very edge of the units ahead the of the fire place that will firm up the centre image. You should hear the sound coming from the centre under TV.

The next bit will be hard because of your furniture. Place the sub under the tv and the see what that sounds like then start moving it to the left and then the right and see what sounds good. I can seee where it’s needs to roughly go but your not going to be able to put it there.

Hope some of the helps. Do not spend money this is a room problem with patients you will get there.

Thanks for the detailed advice.

The speakers are sitting on IsoAcoustics pucks so they have separation from the cabinets - assume that’s the best I can do without getting speaker stands or wall mounts.

It might be a trick of the camera but the speakers are ear level when sat down.

The sub is 1.5m away from the nearest speaker. Where in theory would the best placement be?

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

Firstly the units will be robbing the speakers of all there bass weight and mid range basically the sound will be inside the units there sitting on. You need to disconnect them some how. Experiment with blue tak/rubber balls cut in half ( there are better solutions but for now do it on the cheap) they also look very high especially when seated sending the sound over your head. Does it sound better when you stand up?

The speakers have isolation, if I skim-read this thread correctly.

 

[gasolin]

The next bit will be hard because of your furniture. Place the sub under the tv and the see what that sounds like then start moving it to the left and then the right and see what sounds good. I can seee where it’s needs to roughly go but your not going to be able to put it there.

Put the sub close to where you sit and listen to music, go around in the room to hear where the bass is most powerfull around that area you should place the subwoofer, phase on the sub what ever is loudest in your listening position, is the setting to use

Considered returning or selling the sub and metas (what ever is possible) and get a pair of Kef R3 ? (3 way speakers)

 

[Tinman1952]

Well I have read this thread and personally I am fairly sure it is the speakers which are the problem. I had the original LS50s and it is not an accident they are described by KEF as 'mini monitors'!
I found them not easy to drive correctly, too bright with a peak between 2kHz and 5kHz, and unusable without a sub.
Nothing wrong with using Iso Acoustic pucks for isolation....but you need to seriously think about different speakers for the sound you seek. Sorry....

 

[twinkletoes]

Thanks for the detailed advice.

The speakers are sitting on IsoAcoustics pucks so they have separation from the cabinets - assume that’s the best I can do without getting speaker stands or wall mounts.

It might be a trick of the camera but the speakers are ear level when sat down.

The sub is 1.5m away from the nearest speaker. Where in theory would the best placement be?

ah I see. ISO tech pretty much the best you can do. Might be worth tryimg the speakers without though worth a bit Blu tak. Maybe there taking a bit
away.

Personally I’d try the sub in the centre under the TV for now and work out from there. subs are funny beasts and can take a while to setup. Loads of advice on YouTube more than we can give here. But seeing as your using a stereo amp it can be hard to set up a sub as half the controls to fine tune it just aren’t there. It’s all about timing. The sounds need to reach you all at the same time.

Unfortunately it’s sounding very much like you’re sitting in slight null as well but keep preserving little movements here and there can make a massive difference.

All trial and error ands there’s no hard and fast rules just experience and educated guesses.

 

[Tinman1952]

ah I see. ISO tech pretty much the best you can do. Might be worth tryimg the speakers without though worth a bit Blu tak. Maybe there taking a bit
away.

Personally I’d try the sub in the centre under the TV for now and work out from there. subs are funny beasts and can take a while to setup. Loads of advice on YouTube more than we can give here. But seeing as your using a stereo amp it can be hard to set up a sub as half the controls to fine tune it just aren’t there. It’s all about timing. The sounds need to reach you all at the same time.

Unfortunately it’s sounding very much like you’re sitting in slight null as well but keep preserving little movements here and there can make a massive difference.

All trial and error ands there’s no hard and fast rules just experience and educated guesses.

I don't disagree with any of this but would just add that the sub is only providing low bass (up to 100 Hz?) and the OP initially complained of lack of body to 'mids and vocals'. Seems to me a speaker problem.....

 

[gasolin]

Well I have read this thread and personally I am fairly sure it is the speakers which are the problem. I had the original LS50s and it is not an accident they are described by KEF as 'mini monitors'!
I found them not easy to drive correctly, too bright with a peak between 2kHz and 5kHz, and unusable without a sub.
Nothing wrong with using Iso Acoustic pucks for isolation....but you need to seriously think about different speakers for the sound you seek. Sorry....

Yes they are forward (metas) in the upper midrange lower treble which make you focus on that area (where the human ear are most sensistive) to me that just son't make them lean sounding, it's just makes you more focused on it and takes away something from the listening experience since, the speakers don't have an even,smooth sound from the lows to the highs