Why does my hifi system sound lean?

[manicm]

As you will, however I believe a 12wpc amp of any type is not going to drive the Metas well at low volumes.

Oh dear.....ok I won't entertain this argument anymore. You do realise you can push only 12w with the most powerful amp too, don't you?

 

[Al ears]

Oh dear.....ok I won't entertain this argument anymore. You do realise you can push only 12w with the most powerful amp too, don't you?

You are clearly, deliberately or not, missing my point.
Never mind....

 

[manicm]

You are clearly, deliberately or not, missing my point.
Never mind....

You clearly or deliberately don't get the point. I've read Arcam's brief white paper on class G. The switchover to the second, bigger power supply is seamless and in fact would be very hard to detect. Where by the way did you get to the specific switchover at 12w? No matter as it's irrelevant.

If you're outputting by volume control at around 12w on a class A amp, why would that be worse than any other type?

So the SA20 is operating in class A until 12w, so explain to me why that is bad??

 

[Al ears]

You clearly or deliberately don't get the point. I've read Arcam's brief white paper on class G. The switchover to the second, bigger power supply is seamless and in fact would be very hard to detect. Where by the way did you get to the specific switchover at 12w? No matter as it's irrelevant.

If you're outputting by volume control at around 12w on a class A amp, why would that be worse than any other type?

So the SA20 is operating in class A until 12w, so explain to me why that is bad??

you are clearly well read, please work it out for yourself as I am not going to divert the OPs thread any further.

 

[shipworm-archaism-recede]

@manicm, @Al ears it would be awesome if you would conduct a civil debate with each other on a topic that you evidently disagree on. I for one would learn so much more from your combined wisdom than the current tone.

 

[manicm]

you are clearly well read, please work it out for yourself as I am not going to divert the OPs thread any further.

The SA20 does not suddenly run out of puff at 12w or whatever the case may be, the second power supply is always ready on demand in Arcam’s class G topology. Let me iterate again - at a certain moderate volume you could be driving any amp at only around 10w. There’s nothing wrong with that, but class A amps are known to be generally better than others because of its CONSTANT and continuous power supply, it is not switching or fluctuating like class A/B or class D amps.

If you’re listening at lower volumes you’re not using all your amp’s power are you? I know what you’re trying to say, but Arcam would probably say no. The SA20 is not simply a 12w class A amp at lower volumes - the class G design is more complex than that.

 

[TrevC]

Class A AB C D or Z, none of it affects the tonality of the amplifier and speaker combo. To fix a thin sounding speaker like the KEFs you need some eq. which means tone controls or loudness or setting the sub so it fills in the gap.

 

[TrevC]

The SA20 does not suddenly run out of puff at 12w or whatever the case may be, the second power supply is always ready on demand in Arcam’s class G topology. Let me iterate again - at a certain moderate volume you could be driving any amp at only around 10w. There’s nothing wrong with that, but class A amps are known to be generally better than others because of its CONSTANT and continuous power supply, it is not switching or fluctuating like class A/B or class D amps.

If you’re listening at lower volumes you’re not using all your amp’s power are you? I know what you’re trying to say, but Arcam would probably say no. The SA20 is not simply a 12w class A amp at lower volumes - the class G design is more complex than that.

Sounds like a gimmick to me. For a start class A just wastes power because all that is needed is to forward bias the output stage enough to eliminate crossover distortion.

 

[Tinman1952]

The SA20 does not suddenly run out of puff at 12w or whatever the case may be, the second power supply is always ready on demand in Arcam’s class G topology. Let me iterate again - at a certain moderate volume you could be driving any amp at only around 10w. There’s nothing wrong with that, but class A amps are known to be generally better than others because of its CONSTANT and continuous power supply, it is not switching or fluctuating like class A/B or class D amps.

If you’re listening at lower volumes you’re not using all your amp’s power are you? I know what you’re trying to say, but Arcam would probably say no. The SA20 is not simply a 12w class A amp at lower volumes - the class G design is more complex than that.

I have to agree there is nothing quite like class A for the music I listen to. Classical for example, particularly baroque string instruments, really shows the difference. It can be quite painful with class AB or class D....
I also read that Arcam's class G can switch in the additional power rails in one micro second when required...that's one millionth of a second...that's quite amazing! 👍

 

[Tinman1952]

Class A AB C D or Z, none of it affects the tonality of the amplifier

Sorry. That is patently not true.....🙂

 

[Tinman1952]

Sounds like a gimmick to me. For a start class A just wastes power because all that is needed is to forward bias the output stage enough to eliminate crossover distortion.

Here comes the ill informed dogma.....🙄

 

[Tinman1952]

@manicm, @Al ears it would be awesome if you would conduct a civil debate with each other on a topic that you evidently disagree on. I for one would learn so much more from your combined wisdom than the current tone.

Personally I cannot stand all this politically correct 'politeness'....let's get at it! 😁

 

[TrevC]

Here comes the ill informed dogma.....🙄

I read your ill informed dogma. Call me unimpressed.

I have to agree there is nothing quite like class A for the music I listen to. Classical for example, particularly baroque string instruments, really shows the difference. It can be quite painful with class AB or class D....

So you imagine. The fact is that many so called class A amps are actually class AB with more forward biasing. Class A doesn't sound different to Class B, AB or D if all those are well designed, easily found from the measurements. I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about.

 

[manicm]

I read your ill informed dogma. Call me unimpressed.

So you imagine. The fact is that many so called class A amps are actually class AB with more forward biasing. Class A doesn't sound different to Class B, AB or D if all those are well designed, easily found from the measurements. I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Some maybe, but there are a few true class A amps, and they are not class A/B amps at all. Lets assume we’re calling spades spades.

 

[Tinman1952]

I read your ill informed dogma. Call me unimpressed.

So you imagine. The fact is that many so called class A amps are actually class AB with more forward biasing. Class A doesn't sound different to Class B, AB or D if all those are well designed, easily found from the measurements. I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Please do not be patronising... I know exactly the difference between class A and class AB and class D and class G. I have owned all these. You do not have a monopoly on HiFi knowledge...🤔

 

[robdmarsh]

Getting back to the topic and trying to help out Ollie C, does anyone else have the Kef ls50 Metas and agree that they sound a bit lean?

 

[Tinman1952]

I read your ill informed dogma. Call me unimpressed.

So you imagine. The fact is that many so called class A amps are actually class AB with more forward biasing. Class A doesn't sound different to Class B, AB or D if all those are well designed, easily found from the measurements. I bet you have no idea what I'm talking about.

Class AB with forward biasing is still a 'push pull' design and does not have the single output device of pure class A. I don't really care if you 'think' there is a difference or not....
I and many others have heard the difference.

 

[TrevC]

Class AB with forward biasing is still a 'push pull' design and does not have the single output device of pure class A. I don't really care if you 'think' there is a difference or not....
I and many others have heard the difference.

So you really don't understand. Thanks for proving it. Every transistor class A amp on the market is push pull, even the humble transistor radio is push pull.

 

[Tinman1952]

So you really don't understand. Thanks for proving it.

😀 Well I am always willing to learn. Please tell me why I am wrong....

 

[GSV Ethics Gradient]

We're straying off topic and into ill-tempered territory, so please back on topic and try to remember it's Christmas...

 

[Tinman1952]

We're straying off topic and into ill-tempered territory, so please back on topic and try to remember it's Christmas...

Agreed. A few too many arrogant Scrooges on this forum......! God bless us everyone! 🎄

 

[shadders]

Hi,
It may depend on a persons age on how they define class A or class B, A/B.

Class A was taught as being a single ended implementation. Now, class A includes a push pull architecture where neither device turns off during output signal operation.

Regards,
Shadders.

 

[Tinman1952]

Hi,
It may depend on a persons age on how they define class A or class B, A/B.

Class A was taught as being a single ended implementation. Now, class A includes a push pull architecture where neither device turns off during output signal operation.

Regards,
Shadders.

Thank you! 🙂

 

[TrevC]

Some maybe, but there are a few true class A amps, and they are not class A/B amps at all. Lets assume we’re calling spades spades.

Hence my use of the word "many" rather than "all". The MF A1 was push pull class AB biased to make it roast.

 

[TrevC]

Hi,
It may depend on a persons age on how they define class A or class B, A/B.

Class A was taught as being a single ended implementation. Now, class A includes a push pull architecture where neither device turns off during output signal operation.

Regards,
Shadders.

True, but we are talking about solid state hifi amplifiers, not old valve radios or old germanium transistor car radios.. Find me a single ended class A transistor hifi amplifier. Tinny thinks class A means single ended, which it doesn't.