Why does my CD player sound better than my streamer

[SteveR750]

Maybe read a book before you go to bed.

Hmm, yes, maybe Jim Lesurf's Information and Measurement. Required reading for anyone interested in how musical data is stored and retrieved.

Matt

Thanks for that link!

 

[Anderson]

I am in bed and reading the link, it is interesting.

 

[steve_1979]

It is interesting.

 

[ID.]

The Arcam and the Cyrus feed digital signal to the same DAC, both coaxial, both from the same CD. The issue is either inaccurate rip (normalization is frequently forgoten left ON) or it is mere placebo.

I missed that he was just using the player as a transport.

BTW, Thomsponuxb. Master. Troll. Always brings the lols.

 

[SteveR750]

Maybe read a book before you go to bed.

Hmm, yes, maybe Jim Lesurf's Information and Measurement. Required reading for anyone interested in how musical data is stored and retrieved.

Matt

Chapter 2 is interesting, and limitations of an analogue channel capacity that limits the amount of data a ADC can capture includes the response time of the actual conductor (inherent impedance) lends weitght to the cables must have an influence on the SQ argument. Occurred to me that my speaker cables are too long, so not only are they reducting the control the amp has over the speakers, but they are coiled up as cables inevitably are when tucked away, which must also give rise to some latent impedance that affects the conductivity and phase of the signal passing through them. Whether I can hear it is another matter.

Of course, if you use Nordost cables, the signal travels at 87% of the speed of light, presumably though there is a specific orientation, and a specially designed cable holder / router to ensure that they lay in the right position for optimum transmission that you can also purchase as an extra.

 

[SteveR750]

Aha. Chapter 8, P66 and the myth about sending square pulse waves. Surely this indicates that the cable you use for digital interconnects (assuming they are USB compliant) makes no difference on the information that the receiver gets.

Too much maths in this for me to really grasp it, I can only understand the physical concepts visualised rather than numerically modelled.

 

[Electro]

I find rather strange that we never had these conversations about CD players a spinny digital thing with a DAC chip and analog output stage. DAC chips are the easy headline a Wolfson xxxxxxxxx wow. I take it as gospel that the chosen chip is going to do its job of DA conversion. The clever bit, the bit that makes the differance to SQ is the analog and PSU sections this is side that is difficult and expensive to implement in a quality device.

I agree , the biggest difference in sound quality between digital players and dac's is found in the analogue output stage imo .*smile*

 

[davedotco]

I find rather strange that we never had these conversations about CD players a spinny digital thing with a DAC chip and analog output stage. DAC chips are the easy headline a Wolfson xxxxxxxxx wow. I take it as gospel that the chosen chip is going to do its job of DA conversion. The clever bit, the bit that makes the differance to SQ is the analog and PSU sections this is side that is difficult and expensive to implement in a quality device.

I agree , the biggest difference in sound quality between digital players and dac's is found in the analogue output stage imo .*smile*

This has always been the case, it is one area where 'boutique' designers can put their own stamp on the sound of the dac, that and the choice of digital filter if the one on the dac chip is not being utilised.

This allows them to voice a product to suit their product line, but if the d to a conversion is implemented correctly, it is really only of a presentational nature. It also gives the designer a chance to up the output voltage slightly, which as we all know, will 'improve' clarity and detail resolution.

Don't write off the effect of the transport though, trying to accurately read all the data off of a rapidly spinning and vibrating disc in one pass is no mean feat. Error correction should take care of the issues but I remain sceptical that this is entirely inaudible. I have, in the past, repeatedly and consistently observed differences in transports, this may be one explanation.

 

[MajorFubar]

I only just saw this thread, I figured it was something I had knowledge about and I could offer some positive contibution to help the OP. Then half way down the first page someone suggested in all seriousness that the OP's SQ issues are caused by him using WiFi instead of a direct cabled connection. Then a few posts underneath someone suggested that a streamer will never sound as good as a CD player because it 'reformats the data' unlike a CD player which is 'made for the job' (I might be slightly paraphrasing; they were words to that effect). And it was at that point I realised why I left the forum for a while.

Deep breath. Ah that's better.

 

[Anderson]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIQ9IXSUzuM

 

[kmlav]

I only just saw this thread, I figured it was something I had knowledge about and I could offer some positive contibution to help the OP. Then half way down the first page someone suggested in all seriousness that the OP's SQ issues are caused by him using WiFi instead of a direct cabled connection. Then a few posts underneath someone suggested that a streamer will never sound as good as a CD player because it 'reformats the data' unlike a CD player which is 'made for the job' (I might be slightly paraphrasing; they were words to that effect). And it was at that point I realised why I left the forum for a while.

Deep breath. Ah that's better.

I would have to agree with this. I was just looking for a bit of help and advise on the way I was doing things not really to debate the detail of the data and as the Major says I now realise why I had given up with this fourm. That said there has been some good advise from someone with almost the same kit as me who had the same issue so there is some light.

 

[Vladimir]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

 

[kmlav]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

I'm sorry but this is not true. This notion that its only a hallowed few that actually have the ears and the insight to realize that HiFi is a myth is nonsense.

 

[The_Lhc]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

I'm sorry but this is not true. This notion that its only a hallowed few that actually have the ears and the insight to realize that HiFi is a myth is nonsense. 

I'd never dream of speaking on behalf of someone like Vladimir but I've read his post a few times now and I can't see where he's suggested that at all.

 

[MeanandGreen]

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience.

I think I agree with this. My Sony CDP is one from the 'Fixed Pickup Mechanism' vintage with a metal puck for placing on the CD before loading. The reading of the table of contents is definitely slower than any other player I've owned. Combined with the incredibly smooth and silent drawer mechanism it does in a way lead to a sence of anticipation. The machine feels incredibly solid and heavy, it's all aluminium, has switchable digital filters, CD Text, and very solid and swift controls. Skipping tracks with the perfectly weighted jog dial somehow feels satisfying. Track selection is incredibly fast and silent.

The whole process of loading an album into this machine and playing it feels special. The sound quality is excellent and I always use this player as my source of reference.

Whether or not I could identify this player in a blind comparison between my CD Recorder or Blu-Ray player with the same CDs I don't know. I just know that the experience of using the Sony definitley adds pleasure to an album night. I always feel that this machine gives me the cleanest most detailed sound, it may be placebo. To be honest I don't care if it is placebo. I have owned this machine for about 16 years and it's still like new. It reads any CD, CDR or CDRW I throw at it.

I like the fact that my CDP is a Sony, they developed the hardware over 30 years ago. Really who could do it better?

Oh and yes, I am quite sad *pardon*

 

[SteveR750]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

A reasonable argument at last I'm pretty sure that above a minimum price / build quality there's little if anything in SQ improvements, just like DACs. Though I'm not convinced that all CD players sound as uncoloured as a basic PC / Mac that's set up properly, and I have to say I have never looked lovingly at the lump of recalcitrant Asus sat in the corner of the room

 

[Infiniteloop]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

I'm sorry Vlad, but in my experience, I cannot agree. My Mac Mini, which is kept pretty much out of sight and affords me zero in terms of musical anticipation - foreplay - if you like, sounds massively better (with a DAC and files ripped from CDs) than any CD player I've ever owned.

 

[Infiniteloop]

I only just saw this thread, I figured it was something I had knowledge about and I could offer some positive contibution to help the OP. Then half way down the first page someone suggested in all seriousness that the OP's SQ issues are caused by him using WiFi instead of a direct cabled connection. Then a few posts underneath someone suggested that a streamer will never sound as good as a CD player because it 'reformats the data' unlike a CD player which is 'made for the job' (I might be slightly paraphrasing; they were words to that effect). And it was at that point I realised why I left the forum for a while.

Deep breath. Ah that's better.

It's quite easy to post on here and come across as a pompous know-it-all, especially when you haven't heard the differences described on the equipment it is experienced from.

I trust that wasn't really your intent?

The difference in SQ I can hear between a Wifi connection and a USB connection on my equipment can definitely be heard. Whether that's due to how the signal is handled when it is received, I don't know.

But it's there.

Moreover, it's there on other systems I've owned too.

If it wasn't, - why would I bother with a more cluttered, less elegant solution?

 

[MajorFubar]

Pompous know it all? No, not me. There's loads of things I don't know and I'm still learning. But some things are just obvious twaddle. However, and it's a very big however, internet forums are not often the best platform for exchanging thoughts and ideas without misinterpretation. (And, as you say, without unintentionally coming across as a pompous know it all. Or a blithering idiot.)

So let's start from scratch. I too have a Mac Mini that I use as a music server (among other uses). I too also have all my CDs stored as lossless rips on a NAS. Are you seriously suggesting that when I play music on my Mac, the audio files are going to sound different depending on if I'm streaming them from the NAS via my WiFi network / homeplug network, or if I'm streaming the same files from a storage device directy connected to my Mac via a USB cable? If not then fair enough.

 

[davedotco]

When i set up a system, particularly when I am doing it for someone else, I always try to follow 'best practice'. I look at cables, supports, stands, pretty much everything and have a way of doing things that is predictable and produces a well set up system that sounds good and is stable.

With this kind of mindset I find that I hate un-necessary complications, extra components and complex procedures so, to give one example, I am absolutely sure (in my own mind) that wired streaming sounds better than via Airplay.

Now I understand that we are just moving 'files' and no modification of those files could cause the kind of differences that I hear, but hear them I do. I guess it is similar to the fact that I have to have speaker cables that are the same length (I've documented my issues with shifting soundstages), wierd but true.

The issue here is that I have, over the years, tested these effects and know them to be all in the mind (my mind that is), but despite being 100% sure that there is no difference, I still hear what I hear.

 

[Covenanter]

Logical, but still no one seems to hear a difference between a cheap Onkyo CDP player or an expensive audiophile CDP in a blind test. If the expensive one sounds different in a blind test, they voiced it intentionally, which means they ruined its flat FR and it is no longer a High Fidelity component. You cannot change resolution in the analog section, you can just mess up the FR. Like when a photo has a slight discoloration but it still has the same resolution.

The whole purpose of Perfect Sound Forever was to solve sources as a variation in sound quality once and for all. Moving from CD to files just solved the storage issues, didn't improve sound quality at all. Sound quality was solved in the CD era because it breached the border where our hearing can detect differences.

What you buy with a high class audiophile CDP is build quality, durability, the feel of it, how it works like a high precission robot, the remote, even the intentionally slowed down reading operation, building up expectation like playing an LP. It looks, works and sounds great. The badge on top of it is the delicious pride of ownership for such a quality craftsmanship. If it sounds better, its not because of the sound but because of the whole experience. This is why the Electrocompaniet EMC 1 UP has an exposed transport mechanism and a clamp. To stimulate the experience, like when you play records. The brochure blurb about stability is just a pleasant bonus.

I'm sorry Vlad, but in my experience, I cannot agree. My Mac Mini, which is kept pretty much out of sight and affords me zero in terms of musical anticipation - foreplay - if you like, sounds massively better (with a DAC and files ripped from CDs) than any CD player I've ever owned.

Just simply rubbish! Not worth saying any more.

Chris

 

[Vladimir]

I'm sorry Vlad, but in my experience, I cannot agree. My Mac Mini, which is kept pretty much out of sight and affords me zero in terms of musical anticipation - foreplay - if you like, sounds massively better (with a DAC and files ripped from CDs) than any CD player I've ever owned.

Good for you.

 

[cheeseboy]

The issue here is that I have, over the years, tested these effects and know them to be all in the mind (my mind that is), but despite being 100% sure that there is no difference, I still hear what I hear.

This is the main crux of most of these threads I feel. It tends to end up being those that for whatever reason refuse to accept there is no real word difference because they hear it. Yet, at the same time would happily accept visual illusions as just that - ie an illusion, but one that fools the mind in to interperating something differently. Kind of odd really that somebody can accept visual illusions, but not auditory ones.

 

[unsleepable]

I would have to agree with this. I was just looking for a bit of help and advise on the way I was doing things not really to debate the detail of the data and as the Major says I now realise why I had given up with this fourm. That said there has been some good advise from someone with almost the same kit as me who had the same issue so there is some light.

Any progress with your setup? What have you tried so far?

 

[davedotco]

The issue here is that I have, over the years, tested these effects and know them to be all in the mind (my mind that is), but despite being 100% sure that there is no difference, I still hear what I hear.

This is the main crux of most of these threads I feel. It tends to end up being those that for whatever reason refuse to accept there is no real word difference because they hear it. Yet, at the same time would happily accept visual illusions as just that - ie an illusion, but one that fools the mind in to interperating something differently. Kind of odd really that somebody can accept visual illusions, but not auditory ones.

Agreed.

So many threads are derailed by this basic miss-understanding. Enthusiasts try different components, dacs and in paricularly cables and report their findings, this in itself is fine, but the fall out from it is not.

Reporting such impressions as 'facts' will often get called but this brings a response from the poster to the effect that the 'differences' are so obvious that anyone who doesn't hear them must be 'deaf'.

What is really not understood is that most 'sceptics' hear the differences too, but having been 'round the hi-fi block' a few more times, they have a better idea of what is actually going on. Cables may well make a difference in some cases but if the difference is 'huge', 'night and day' or whatever, you can be fairly sure that it is illusory.

Pointing this out, whether politely or otherwise, does tend to raise some hackles but it is hard to let some things go when you know that many people read the threads for advice (far more than actually post) and may find themselves heading very much in the wrong direction.

What can be even more pernicious is the seemingly open minded and logical suggestion to 'listen for yourself' and 'make your own mind up' when such suggestions simply lead the unsuspecting into the arms of the 'foo' and 'snake-oil' salesmen.