Why do we need higher frequency range?

[admin_exported]

Hi.

I wonder why people are so critical about "frequency range" when buying cd player, speaker, and amplifier. Audible sound is within 20-20Khz.

1. Does it mean that any effort to extend hi-fi's capability outside audible frequency range is just a waste of money and energy?

2. Is it useless to buy cd player and amplifier with high frequency range (5Hz-100KHz) since speaker's frequency response (most hi-end speakers) doesn't go lower than 35Hz, and doesn't go higher than 40KHz? Meaning, the most you can get is 35Hz-40KHz.

3. Also, I think, CD recording quality caters 20Hz-20KHz only. So, is it really practical and logical to buy Hi-Fi's with higher range response?

Please let me understand. Thank you.

 

[Dave_]

oneth789:I wonder why people are so critical about "frequency range" when buying cd player, speaker, and amplifier.Are they ?

 

[chebby]

Agreed. Never really give it a thought.

I read somewhere that my own Naim equipment is deliberately bandwidth limited.

My own hearing is fine down to 30hz (-3db) in both ears and about -9db at 16khz in my right ear and impossible to hear beyond 12khz at all in the left. (Probably due to age.)

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

(Use good quality headphones in a very quiet room and heed ALL instructions carefully.)

It is doubtful that many of my CDs contain any useful musical information above what I can hear anyway.

By the time most people are old enough to be able to afford the sort of equipment that can relay bat conversation, their ability to hear such extremes is shot to pieces just by ageing!

Sure, there might be a few, very rich, audiophile teenagers - who have not yet damaged their ears by playing their iPod's in-ear phones too loud - who might just still be able to hear frequencies over 20khz. (Probably some kind of hiss.)

 

[ear]

my yamaha speakers go up to 35 khz.heard some ther speakers that went up to 40 khz and 50 khz.I hear all these speakers and all of them sound much brighter than speakers that go only to 20 khz.

 

[Anonymous]

oneth789:I wonder why people are so critical about "frequency range" when buying cd player, speaker, and amplifier. Audible sound is within 20-20Khz.Audible sound for some people is 20 Hz to 30+ kHz. E.g. at the age of 30 I could hear a 31 kHz signal, and in my late teens I met someone who could hear high frequency sounds that I could not. It was not until my mid forties that the loud whistle of a TV set (17 kHz? ) became inaudible.

I have never heard of anyone choosing their hi-fi by its frequency range. It makes about as much sense as choosing a concert by the orchestra's frequency range.

 

[shooter]

This is a good point. Everyone is NOT the same and our hearing is a personal one. A lot of questions need to be answered here regarding the 20hz-20khz 'window'. I presume but could be wrong that the decision to use 20/20 for CD playback was down to the Phillips and Sony as these two company's pushed or the digital revolution. Surely they would of done there 'homework' and realised the human ear can hear sounds outside 20/20. Or maybe it was a technical issue? To get a broader frequency range would of cost considerably more and this in turn could of held up or halted the digital age. Personally i think a broader range say from 15hz to 40khz would give a better overall picture when listening to CD. An instrument is a fine tool and the frequency from them is enormous. An organ can give bass notes of 4hz and going write through the range to a cymbal crash that can reach over 100khz. As you can see the range is vast with plenty of instruments in between. As we are now with 20/20 we loose so much audible sound the picture is lost. If Sony and Philips went with a broader frequency range i think and i hate to say it vinyl would be obsolete by now, luckily it's alive and kicking.

 

[AlmaataKZ]

chebby:

http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/hearing.html

Interesting reading at that link, chebby. Thank you.

 

[Anonymous]

shooter69: If Sony and Philips went with a broader frequency range i think and i hate to say it vinyl would be obsolete by now, luckily it's alive and kicking.That has little to do with the frequency range. Many cartridges also have top limits around the 20khz mark. That's the theoretical level, anyway, the point being, as a poster above says, that while some may go higher their performance drops sharply.

Don't blame Philips or Sony, either. Most research then and now shows the range to be 20-20000khz for a young adult, and their choice was based on that.

 

[shooter]

Tarquinh:
That has little to do with the frequency range. Many cartridges also have top limits around the 20khz mark. That's the theoretical level, anyway, the point being, as a poster above says, that while some may go higher their performance drops sharply.

Your missing my point.

Even though we can't hear the noise it still forms part of the production and in turn forms part of the listening experience. When you go to a concert and listen those instruments they don't just cut off at 20/20 do they. The full frequency spectrum is heard and forms part of it.

Tarquinh:
Don't blame Philips or Sony, either. Most research then and now shows the range to be 20-20000khz for a young adult, and their choice was based on that.

I'm not blaming anyone.

Really all i'm after is some answers why it's only 20/20 and not broader.

 

[Anonymous]

69, The full frequency spectrum is NOT heard at all. We only hear a part of it.

The point is you can't hear above or below the 20 - 20000hz range. If you take testing gear along to a concert you'll be able to see when the sound is above or below the 20 - 20000hz limit, but that's it.

To put it another way, were the entire concert to be played below 20hz or above 20000hz you would hear nothing. There would be no listening experience at all.

To answer your last question it's a limitation of our species.

Edited for khz error

 

[007L2Thrill]

I have all Tannoy speakers which extend the HF to 51Khz and the manual claims everything will sound more real and realistic with better bass because all bass notes go over to 31Khz, now I can not prove or disprove that, all I can do is cover the super tweeter and if I do all I notice is a slight lack of air and the bass seems to lack a slight clarity.

I have to say that my mission speakers I had was only 20Khz and to me sounded a lot more open in the top end, so a little confusing, is this marking hype( did I really say that last bit).

 

[Anonymous]

I have access to some 15 and 30 ips analog master tapes.

If I do an analog to digital conversion, at 96 kHz 24bit, of these tapes an analysis shows quite a lot of information in the 20 kHz to 40 kHz range.

If I then make a copy, still 96kHz 24 bit, with all the frequencies above 20kHz removed and play the two, there is a marked difference between them. I know I cannot hear above 20kHz - so it is only the interaction/modulation effects etc. of the higher frequencies that are causing the improvement.

As an aside - It is the sampling frequency used, 44.1kHz, that is the main failing of the CD system.

 

[Anonymous]

Or purely psychological, let us not forget.

 

[Tom Moreno]

Tarquinh:
69, The full frequency spectrum is NOT heard at all. We only hear a part of it.

The point is you can't hear above or below the 20 - 20000hz range. If you take testing gear along to a concert you'll be able to see when the sound is above or below the 20 - 20000hz limit, but that's it.

To put it another way, were the entire concert to be played below 20hz or above 20000hz you would hear nothing. There would be no listening experience at all.

To answer your last question it's a limitation of our species.

Edited for khz error

You are half right. Yes our ears cannot hear above 20k on average, however this doesn't mean that sound at upper frequencies doesn't affect what we hear. Acoustic instruments resonate at frequencies much higher than 20k and many of them have harmonics at these upper registers that if cut off result in a recording that doesn't accurately portray the instrument. This is because these upper harmonics perform an interplay with frequencies in our audible range and thus change our perception of them without being able to directly hear the upper harmonic. This is why hi-res digital delivery makes such a difference on acoustic material, especially orchestral music where several instruments are particularly prone to this, the most famous one being the trumpet. This is the main reason why the determined frequency range of 20-22k on the CD standard was such a massive oversight and is ultimately the best that was achievable in the 1960s when digital music was being engineered. Obviously people who listen to analogue music such as vinyl don't have any format imposed frequency limitations.

Here's a good at the link PSB speaker site that explains more...

http://www.psbspeakers.com/audio-topics/The-Frequencies-of-Music

 

[Anonymous]

Afraid this is in the unproven audible range of the spectrum.

 

[Anonymous]

Tom Moreno:Tarquinh:
69, The full frequency spectrum is NOT heard at all. We only hear a part of it.

The point is you can't hear above or below the 20 - 20000hz range. If you take testing gear along to a concert you'll be able to see when the sound is above or below the 20 - 20000hz limit, but that's it.

To put it another way, were the entire concert to be played below 20hz or above 20000hz you would hear nothing. There would be no listening experience at all.

To answer your last question it's a limitation of our species.

Edited for khz error

You are half right. Yes our ears cannot hear above 20k on average, however this doesn't mean that sound at upper frequencies doesn't affect what we hear. Acoustic instruments resonate at frequencies much higher than 20k and many of them have harmonics at these upper registers that if cut off result in a recording that doesn't accurately portray the instrument. This is because these upper harmonics perform an interplay with frequencies in our audible range and thus change our perception of them without being able to directly hear the upper harmonic. This is why hi-res digital delivery makes such a difference on acoustic material, especially orchestral music where several instruments are particularly prone to this, the most famous one being the trumpet. This is the main reason why the determined frequency range of 20-22k on the CD standard was such a massive oversight and is ultimately the best that was achievable in the 1960s when digital music was being engineered. Obviously people who listen to analogue music such as vinyl don't have any format imposed frequency limitations.

Here's a good at the link PSB speaker site that explains more...

http://www.psbspeakers.com/audio-topics/The-Frequencies-of-Music

Thanks for the clarification of my previous post.

 

[Anonymous]

As per my previous comment. You'll also find phono cartridges cut off at about 20000hz.