Why do digital sources sound different to each other?

[QuestForThe13thNote]

The OP thinks expectation bias is for people lacking intelligence and experience with expensive kit. Here lies the true challenge. *smile*

you seem to post in riddles. Very confusing.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The OP thinks expectation bias is for people lacking intelligence and experience with expensive kit. Here lies the true challenge. *smile*

And watch from here
As I've never tested this before.
Maybe i need to test my Panasonic blu ray as transport v pc files to my dac

 

[Leif]

PC disc drives do not have to 'play' in real time, CD drives do. A big difference.

Back when I was a dealer I was quite convinced that the difference between CD transports were quite marked. Subjective evaluations of course, but these were things I dealt with every day, so not just a one off impression.

With the advent of better dacs with buffers and reclocking I kind of assumed that this issue was a thing of the past as conventional wisdom has it that transports don't matter.

Maybe another area where 'conventional wisdom' is way off the mark.

My CD drive will rip a disk at almost 30x speed. Now I don't know if that is 30x real time audio playback speed, but I do know it is far far faster than the normal speed for playing an audio disk. Or do you mean that the read speed has to be precisely controlled? I suspect you do, in which case that would make sense if the receiver required a steady data rate from the source. (I cannot recall if the SPDIF protocol has a steady data transfer rate, I would assume that it does since it is a packet based digital protocol.)

I would not be surprised if the DAC on old units, and low quality modern units was poor.

 

[Pedro]

I have an El Cheapo Sony DVD player as a transport (cheap Philips S/PDIF cable out) and I can't tell the difference between CDs and FLAC files. I'm still 40, maybe my hearing will improve in a few years 🙂

Don't CDP transport mechs resemble CD drives in computers? It's a sincere question.

 

[davedotco]

PC disc drives do not have to 'play' in real time, CD drives do. A big difference.

Back when I was a dealer I was quite convinced that the difference between CD transports were quite marked. Subjective evaluations of course, but these were things I dealt with every day, so not just a one off impression.

With the advent of better dacs with buffers and reclocking I kind of assumed that this issue was a thing of the past as conventional wisdom has it that transports don't matter.

Maybe another area where 'conventional wisdom' is way off the mark.

My CD drive will rip a disk at almost 30x speed. Now I don't know if that is 30x real time audio playback speed, but I do know it is far far faster than the normal speed for playing an audio disk. Or do you mean that the read speed has to be precisely controlled? I suspect you do, in which case that would make sense if the receiver required a steady data rate from the source. (I cannot recall if the SPDIF protocol has a steady data transfer rate, I would assume that it does since it is a packet based digital protocol.)

I would not be surprised if the DAC on old units, and low quality modern units was poor.

No.

The important thing is that CD drives in computers read the disc multiple times, if they miss some data they go back and read it again, and again, and again. The '30 X speed' allows the drive to make multiple sweeps in quick time, it is not necessarily 30 X linear speed.

Hi-fi CD transports get one go in real time, data on CDs has a degree of redundancy, this enables some data to be missed but the data stream remains 100% accurate. If sufficient data is lost that the data stream can not be 100% accurate, then the transport's error correction circuit is called on.

It is my opinion that this final factor, error correction, is responsible for the differences heard though to be fair there is no objective proof of this.

 

[nopiano]

Could someone explain to me why the sound from a CD using my old Denon DVD player through my Chord DAC sounds awful compared to the sound from the same CD using a Roksan M2 as a transport into the same DAC sounds great? According to what I've read on several threads there shouldn't be a difference, but there is.

And please don't insult my intelligence by using the 'expectation bias' excuse.

I'm not surprised, but I also struggle to find objective reasons beyond jitter output and the level of read errors (bearing in mind how much can be interpolated). I guess if other unwanted noise affects the DAC, then the transport may be superior.

I recall a thread here about Cyrus transports where they claimed a better sound and listed certain factors.

Linn made big play, when scrapping their last CD players, of how streaming sounded better. Howls of disbelief ensued, but now it seems accepted that ripping your own CDs results in superior playback. At the very least, this must mean bit-perfect rips are better than real-time replay.

(Thanks to Cno for the funniest post for ages!)

PS. Do they replay at identical levels? Just a thought!

 

[CnoEvil]

(Thanks to Cno for the funniest post for ages!)

Having read through this thread, I've realized that I only thought I was good at Navel Gazing.

Having stared at my Navel for an hour, all I have spotted is a small ball of fluff from a Samoyd. *unknw*

 

[nopiano]

(Thanks to Cno for the funniest post for ages!)

Having read through this thread, I've realized that I only thought I was good at Navel Gazing.

Having stared at my Navel for an hour, all I have spotted is a small ball of fluff from a Samoyd. *unknw*

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150709-the-curious-truth-about-belly-button-fluff

 

[CnoEvil]

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150709-the-curious-truth-about-belly-button-fluff

Hah!....at least it isn't due to the second reason given in the article. I have a six pack and the body of a Racing Snake! *biggrin*

 

[nopiano]

http://www.bbc.com/future/story/20150709-the-curious-truth-about-belly-button-fluff

Hah!....at least it isn't due to the second reason given in the article. I have a six pack and the body of a Racing Snake! *biggrin*

Just as I imagined! *stop*

 

[Vladimir]

PC disc drives do not have to 'play' in real time, CD drives do. A big difference.

Back when I was a dealer I was quite convinced that the difference between CD transports were quite marked. Subjective evaluations of course, but these were things I dealt with every day, so not just a one off impression.

With the advent of better dacs with buffers and reclocking I kind of assumed that this issue was a thing of the past as conventional wisdom has it that transports don't matter.

Maybe another area where 'conventional wisdom' is way off the mark.

My CD drive will rip a disk at almost 30x speed. Now I don't know if that is 30x real time audio playback speed, but I do know it is far far faster than the normal speed for playing an audio disk. Or do you mean that the read speed has to be precisely controlled? I suspect you do, in which case that would make sense if the receiver required a steady data rate from the source. (I cannot recall if the SPDIF protocol has a steady data transfer rate, I would assume that it does since it is a packet based digital protocol.)

I would not be surprised if the DAC on old units, and low quality modern units was poor.

No.

The important thing is that CD drives in computers read the disc multiple times, if they miss some data they go back and read it again, and again, and again. The '30 X speed' allows the drive to make multiple sweeps in quick time, it is not necessarily 30 X linear speed.

Hi-fi CD transports get one go in real time, data on CDs has a degree of redundancy, this enables some data to be missed but the data stream remains 100% accurate. If sufficient data is lost that the data stream can not be 100% accurate, then the transport's error correction circuit is called on. 

It is my opinion that this final factor, error correction, is responsible for the differences heard though to be fair there is no objective proof of this.

Thats what Sony said to justify leaving out error correction and antishock out of their ES class CDPs. They said sound compression occurs and affects resolution. I'm too lazy to look up their marketimg blurb on hifiengine.com at 1am, but I remember the concept, somewhat.
I think Pioneer did the same and developed the stable platter transport for that purpose.

 

[Vladimir]

(Thanks to Cno for the funniest post for ages!)

Having read through this thread, I've realized that I only thought I was good at Navel Gazing.

Having stared at my Navel for an hour, all I have spotted is a small ball of fluff from a Samoyd. *unknw*

You're still moulting in August? Hurry up, winter is coming.

 

[Infiniteloop]

The OP thinks expectation bias is for people lacking intelligence and experience with expensive kit. Here lies the true challenge. *smile*

Not what I said at all.

For example: I have a chord USB cable that I expected to sound better than a cheapo HP printer cable. I prefer the HP cable. I listen and judge on what I hear, regardless of what it cost.

The point of this thread is that nobody has yet been able to explain (to me at least) why digtal sources sound different, when the science says they shouldn't.

Please don't pretend to know what the OP thinks.

 

[CnoEvil]

The point of this thread is that nobody has yet been able to explain (to me at least) why digtal sources sound different, when the science says they shouldn't.

My very untechnical take on it, is that the power supply/design/isolation of components, can make a difference.

 

[Andrewjvt]

The OP thinks expectation bias is for people lacking intelligence and experience with expensive kit. Here lies the true challenge. *smile*

Not what I said at all.

For example: I have a chord USB cable that I expected to sound better than a cheapo HP printer cable. I prefer the HP cable. I listen and judge on what I hear, regardless of what it cost.

The point of this thread is that nobody has yet been able to explain (to me at least) why digtal sources sound different, when the science says they shouldn't.

Please don't pretend to know what the OP thinks.

 

Many of us have asked you questions to try and get to the bottom of this but you have not answered any?

 

[Vladimir]

The OP thinks expectation bias is for people lacking intelligence and experience with expensive kit. Here lies the true challenge. *smile*

Not what I said at all.

For example: I have a chord USB cable that I expected to sound better than a cheapo HP printer cable. I prefer the HP cable. I listen and judge on what I hear, regardless of what it cost.

The point of this thread is that nobody has yet been able to explain (to me at least) why digtal sources sound different, when the science says they shouldn't.

Please don't pretend to know what the OP thinks.

Your words, not mine. *unknw*

And please don't insult my intelligence by using the 'expectation bias' excuse.

It's sort of important...

A cognitive bias refers to the systematic pattern of deviation from norm or rationality in judgment, whereby inferences about other people and situations may be drawn in an illogical fashion. Individuals create their own "subjective social reality" from their perception of the input. An individual's construction of social reality, not the objective input, may dictate their behaviour in the social world. Thus, cognitive biases may sometimes lead to perceptual distortion, inaccurate judgment, illogical interpretation, or what is broadly called irrationality.

But we entertained your request for alternative explanations. Which one do you think is happening in your situation?

 

[Infiniteloop]

Apologies to those I haven't responded to directly, I've been travelling and not had much opportunity to jump on here.

For clarity: There is a difference in sound when I do the following:

1. Roksan CD player - Coax cable - Chord DAC - Amp

2. Denon DVD player - same Coax cable - same Chord DAC - same Amp

The difference is not subtle.

The science says that there should be no difference.

 

[Pedro2]

The answer is Brexit...or you're mad.....but most likely Brexit.

The difference you hear, is down to the fact it was made by an Immigrant. British made goods all sound better....but Britain doesn't make much any more.

Everything now has got more expensive due to the weak Pound...and we all know, anything expensive sounds better than anything cheap....so what's not to like

People who think that everything sounds the same, need their ears syringed...but due to Brexit, all the nurses have gone back to Europe, so there is nobody left to do it. It's great...they save a fortune.

*crazy* *unknw*

Try using interconnects by Vince Cable. This should solve any audio effects caused by Brexit!

 

[Andrewjvt]

Apologies to those I haven't responded to directly, I've been travelling and not had much opportunity to jump on here.

For clarity: There is a difference in sound when I do the following:

1. Roksan CD player - Coax cable - Chord DAC - Amp

2. Denon DVD player - same Coax cable - same Chord DAC - same Amp

The difference is not subtle.

The science says that there should be no difference.

 

Technically there should be no difference but seems you have one, I for one am interested in what is the outcome.
When I get more time to, I will also do tests.

Maybe a stupid question but could there be a difference in output levels on digital output from roksan cd and denon? Or is there no output level on digital out? Something I've not looked into.

Reason i say this is the digital out from my Sony tv is much quieter than the digital out from my blu ray player into same dac

 

[CnoEvil]

Try using interconnects by Vince Cable. This should solve any audio effects caused by Brexit!

I think you could be onto something there....especially as I think a Balanced Cable is what I need. *wacko*

 

[Vladimir]

To get a digital source to reproduce to perfection is very cheap. This bothers audiophiles extremely. Reaching perfection for pennies creates agony, disbelief eventually leading to delusions.

 

[Leif]

Apologies to those I haven't responded to directly, I've been travelling and not had much opportunity to jump on here.

For clarity: There is a difference in sound when I do the following:

1. Roksan CD player - Coax cable - Chord DAC - Amp

2. Denon DVD player - same Coax cable - same Chord DAC - same Amp

The difference is not subtle.

The science says that there should be no difference.

Technically there should be no difference but seems you have one, I for one am interested in what is the outcome. When I get more time to, I will also do tests.

Maybe a stupid question but could there be a difference in output levels on digital output from roksan cd and denon? Or is there no output level on digital out? Something I've not looked into.

Reason i say this is the digital out from my Sony tv is much quieter than the digital out from my blu ray player into same dac

It should output whatever is encoded on the CD. If it is a HDCD then there might be issues.

I looked into the SPDIF protocol which is used for TOSLINK optical connections, and as far as I can see there is no separate volume control message, so the signal output level is set by the sender by adjusting the digital signal and hence you can get clipping if the volume is too high and losses if it is too low. But a CD player should as said not adjust the volume on the digtal out.

 

[nopiano]

Apologies to those I haven't responded to directly, I've been travelling and not had much opportunity to jump on here.

For clarity: There is a difference in sound when I do the following:

1. Roksan CD player - Coax cable - Chord DAC - Amp

2. Denon DVD player - same Coax cable - same Chord DAC - same Amp

The difference is not subtle.

The science says that there should be no difference.

Technically there should be no difference but seems you have one, I for one am interested in what is the outcome. When I get more time to, I will also do tests.

Maybe a stupid question but could there be a difference in output levels on digital output from roksan cd and denon? Or is there no output level on digital out? Something I've not looked into.

Reason i say this is the digital out from my Sony tv is much quieter than the digital out from my blu ray player into same dac

That was my question in post 31, Andrew. It's the first place to look I think. (My Sony bluRay, a Chromecast, and the Freeview all replay at different levels on the same telly)

 

[Vladimir]

Apologies to those I haven't responded to directly, I've been travelling and not had much opportunity to jump on here.

For clarity: There is a difference in sound when I do the following:

1. Roksan CD player - Coax cable - Chord DAC - Amp

2. Denon DVD player - same Coax cable - same Chord DAC - same Amp

The difference is not subtle.

The science says that there should be no difference.

Technically there should be no difference but seems you have one, I for one am interested in what is the outcome. When I get more time to, I will also do tests.

Maybe a stupid question but could there be a difference in output levels on digital output from roksan cd and denon? Or is there no output level on digital out? Something I've not looked into.

Reason i say this is the digital out from my Sony tv is much quieter than the digital out from my blu ray player into same dac

It should output whatever is encoded on the CD. If it is a HDCD then there might be issues.

I looked into the SPDIF protocol which is used for TOSLINK optical connections, and as far as I can see there is no separate volume control message, so the signal output level is set by the sender by adjusting the digital signal and hence you can get clipping if the volume is too high and losses if it is too low. But a CD player should as said not adjust the volume on the digtal out.

Faulty engineering exists and some units don't perform as they should, either because of cost cutting in build quality, QC, or designer talent. But such rubbish is sold for 20 quid in super markets. A 200 GBP Denon or Rotel CDP shouldn't have this issue, especially considering CD is now outdated technology as much as vinyl. Digital reached its peak.

 

[BobWH]

No.
The important thing is that CD drives in computers read the disc multiple times, if they miss some data they go back and read it again, and again, and again. The '30 X speed' allows the drive to make multiple sweeps in quick time, it is not necessarily 30 X linear speed.

Hi-fi CD transports get one go in real time, data on CDs has a degree of redundancy, this enables some data to be missed but the data stream remains 100% accurate. If sufficient data is lost that the data stream can not be 100% accurate, then the transport's error correction circuit is called on.

It is my opinion that this final factor, error correction, is responsible for the differences heard though to be fair there is no objective proof of this.

I take your point that the drive is operating in a different mode. Nevertheless, my decent (but extremely cheap by hi-fi standards) PC drive is ripping the disc with bit perfect accuracy in typically 1/20 of the time it would take to play it (dbPowerAmp with AccurateRip enabled). If it can do that, surely it is not unreasonable to expect that a drive could get the data off the disc in 'real time' with extremely good accuracy.