Why cable debunkers are wrong.

[gpi]

ediots:
Speaking about cables I can not understand one thing - why inside a case manufacturers using a tiny rubbish cables (even unshielded), but in outside must be big, chunky and expensive + tons of discussion about them. Why are there so big difference, even for similarly shorth lengths? Is it because builders are engineers and listeners not? Must say I feel little bit frustrated when I open a case see this difference. Which cables are wrong?

Ah but you don't understand. Those skinny, unshielded cables are engaged in creating the sound before it goes marching off down the cables we spend a fortune on. )

 

[The_Lhc]

JoelSim:the_lhc:JoelSim:PJPro:I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.
Really? That shows the difference between a computer man and a CD man! I have 4 or 5 albums that I play 2 or 3 times a week each. To me albums have to be listened to in their entirety.

I don't know where I'd find the time to listen to the same 4 albums 2 or 3 times a week (that's up to 2 hours a day, just listening to music!) or why I'd want to?

Yes, on average I would say 3 hours per day listening to music on my system, sometimes no hours, sometimes 8 or more.

When do you get the time? And is that really listening to the same 4 or 5 albums? I've got albums that I may have listened to dozens of times, but I doubt I've listened to any of them more than once a week, at least not since I was a teenager and I only had a few albums, those ones I know so well I don't have to listen to them anymore, but recently? I can't think of anything I'd want to listen to over and over again.

 

[The_Lhc]

PJPro:

One could argue that I do very little "critical" listening....eg listen to music and do nothing else. But that's the way I like it and, TBH, I'm too busy for any other approach.

I'm not sure I'm capable of "critical" listening, if that means doing nothing else. At the very least I'd have to be reading something, the idea of sitting there with nothing for my eyes to do makes me itch, quite literally.

Maybe that's why I prefer home cinema?

 

[the record spot]

PJPro:Yeah, I couldn't be bothered to keep getting up and changing them either ;-)

But I can't believe you do that over the longer term.....perhaps for a few weeks?

Sad to say, I've played many albums - especially those which really sound good, decent mastering, etc - to death. Genesis' Trick of The Tail, Julie Feeney's recent Pages title, UFO's Obsession, Elton's Goodbye Yellow Brick Road on MFSL, a stack of first edition Rush discs....God, you've know idea. Or you either PJ.

 

[Anonymous]

the_lhc:
PJPro: One could argue that I do very little "critical" listening....eg listen to music and do nothing else. But that's the way I like it and, TBH, I'm too busy for any other approach.

I'm not sure I'm capable of "critical" listening, if that means doing nothing else. At the very least I'd have to be reading something, the idea of sitting there with nothing for my eyes to do makes me itch, quite literally.

Maybe that's why I prefer home cinema?

Ah-ha .. the eternal argument once again .... of :-

a) I won't spend more money on a better hi-fi 'cos I never listen to music critically and can't think of enjoying doing so ....

against

(b) if I had a system that bad I wouldn't spend any time critical listening either ............. !!

Which comes first - the want to listen critically, or having a decent enough system to allow you to simply sit and listen!?!??!

Or is that a topic for a thread of it's own ??

 

[Anonymous]

I think that the_Lhc just uses this forum to wind people up ....

 

[JoelSim]

PJPro:It says the improvement is not night and day.

How are you ever going to hear a difference in something you've never heard before. Most hifi produces pretty good sound, it's only really when you compare that you can get a good idea of different components' strengths and weaknesses.

Or with a listening session.

Just for the record I do listen to other albums too.

And I don't watch much TV.

And I have a 2nd set of speakers in the kitchen for when we cook/eat/use the garden.

I therefore have plenty of time to listen to music.

For instance, I've had the hifi on for about 4 hours already today, having a break now, but will be on again later until MOTD starts.

 

[jaxwired]

There have been plenty of blind listening tests that seem to support the fact that cables and even electronics make no audible difference in a HiFi. We all know this is true. So there seem to be 2 possibilities from my perspective.

1. There really is no audible difference.

2. The tests are somehow flawed.

I'm willing to admit I don't know the truth. As I've stated before in other threads, I don't find the human ear/brain combo to be a particularly effective or accurate measuring device to determine subtle audio differences. Especially true the more time between samples.

However, I do still find that I hear consistent differences in both electronics and cables (interconnect and speaker). In fact, I "think" I hear them so consitently that I am firmly in the camp of the "believers".

One possible explanation that I would offer is that blind A/B tests are in fact flawed because they rely on the conscious decision making process. A few years back I read a book called "Blink" by Malcolm Gladwell that compiled detailed research on the subconscious decision making process. There would appear to be very strong evidence that the subconscious is capable of very accurate super high speed decision making that our conscious mind is oblivious to. Anybody that has ever hit a high speed close range volley at tennis knows what I'm talking about. No time to think, yet we do it somehow and actually use strategic placement in that split second.

It's definately possible that the A/B audio tests are flawed even if they appear to be extremely well implemented.

 

[gpi]

So if something sounds rubbish I'll blame my subconscious. ;o)

 

[Craig M.]

i think the most important thing when listening to anything is an open mind. reading reviews can be helpful, as can others opinions when trying to compile a shortlist, but these reviews and opinions should be the furthest things from your mind when you are about to listen to something for yourself. with apologies to anyone who has posted something similar, threads that say "i'm going to demo this, what should i expect?" make me want to bang my head on the wall. i think derren brown demonstrates very ably how much suggestion can influence our thinking.

 

[Al ears]

Lets see then, if I get the test question wrong I just declare the exam flawed?

That's a novel approach Blink and you might just miss it!

 

[The_Lhc]

BigAir:the_lhc:PJPro: One could argue that I do very little "critical" listening....eg listen to music and do nothing else. But that's the way I like it and, TBH, I'm too busy for any other approach.
I'm not sure I'm capable of "critical" listening, if that means doing nothing else. At the very least I'd have to be reading something, the idea of sitting there with nothing for my eyes to do makes me itch, quite literally.

Maybe that's why I prefer home cinema?

Ah-ha .. the eternal argument once again .... of :-

a) I won't spend more money on a better hi-fi 'cos I never listen to music critically and can't think of enjoying doing so ....

against

(b) if I had a system that bad I wouldn't spend any time critical listening either ............. !!

Eternal argument? once again? First time I've heard anybody say that!

Which comes first - the want to listen critically, or having a decent enough system to allow you to simply sit and listen!?!??!

Neither, I doubt anyone goes from never listening to music straight into spending thousands on the best system and music library possible. Surely everyone starts listening to music because they enjoy the tunes and then start wondering whether they could experience it in better quality.

But, just for the record, I'm actually happier with my system now than I have been in years, largely because I've now got the speakers on decent stands so they can actually perform properly. There's lots of room for improvement, I can actually enjoy the sound of my system now, but that still doesn't mean I could sit there for hours, just listening, that would feel too much like I wasn't doing anything.

 

[The_Lhc]

dim_span:I think that the_Lhc just uses this forum to wind people up ....

That's rich coming from you...

 

[jaxwired]

Craig M.: i think the most important thing when listening to anything is an open mind. reading reviews can be helpful, as can others opinions when trying to compile a shortlist, but these reviews and opinions should be the furthest things from your mind when you are about to listen to something for yourself. with apologies to anyone who has posted something similar, threads that say "i'm going to demo this, what should i expect?" make me want to bang my head on the wall. i think derren brown demonstrates very ably how much suggestion can influence our thinking.

Great post and spot on. Anybody that is familiar with the phenomenon called "confirmation bias" knows how powerful pre-conceived conclusions are.

 

[Anonymous]

This discussion will carry over to wireless sound interconnect dongle thingies in the not so distant future. I cant wait for the "50000£ dongle will beat 5£ dongles" and vice versa discussion!

 

[Andrew Everard]

barnsleydave:May I suggest the defendant is taken from this place and forced to listen to Cheryl Cole until dead from boredom.

So near-instant death, then...?

 

[gpi]

That reminds me of the music played at the end of Mars Attacks and could be a scenario for the plot of Saw VII although death would be too quick.

 

[idc]

Some people listen more critically to their system than others.

Some people view the hardwear of hifi as more important than others.

Some people know individual tracks in great detail and use such tester tracks to make very accurate comparisons between cables and other parts of the hifi chain, than others.

Some people have listen to loads of different systems in different places than others.

Hence, some people say cables make a difference and others do not.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:

Some people listen more critically to their system than others.

Some people view the hardwear of hifi as more important than others.

Some people know individual tracks in great detail and use such tester tracks to make very accurate comparisons between cables and other parts of the hifi chain, than others.

Some people have listen to loads of different systems in different places than others.

Hence, some people say cables make a difference and others do not.

and .... some people don't want advice, they just want someone to validate the decision they have already made.

 

[Anonymous]

It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.

Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

 

[JoelSim]

Cable Lover:
It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.

Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

You're only cheating yourself, I know I'm right as I have heard significant differences with my own ears.

 

[matthewpiano]

I can't understand why everything in life has to be dissected or reduced to reason. In some matters 'why' is a very good question to ask, but surely there are situation where it doesn't really matter.

I have a selection of different interconnects and speaker cables here (Cambridge Audio, Monster, Chord Company, Ixos, and QED) and I KNOW that the Chord Company sounds better than the others. I don't need to know why or justify the difference with scientific evidence. I'm just glad that I have some cables that seem to help make the most of my system.

 

[chebby]

JoelSim:You're only cheating yourself, I know I'm right.......

Classic Joelism.

Does not explain why he changes cables more often than underpants though. Something must be wrong in the land of.. "you must be deaf if you don't agree with me".

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:
JoelSim:You're only cheating yourself, I know I'm right.......

Classic Joelism.

Does not explain why he changes cables more often than underpants though. Something must be wrong in the land of.. "you must be deaf if you don't agree with me".

I have all the cables I want now Chebby. I also have conclusive proof that they make a difference, if people don't want to be open-minded enough to try before they say it's foo, then more fool them.

 

[chebby]

JoelSim:I have all the cables I want now Chebby. I also have conclusive proof that they make a difference...

The hifi world would be grateful if you'd publish your proof and explain how others can reliably replicate your results.

I would also be grateful as it would put an end to all these cable threads and we could get onto more interesting subjects like... "Equipment racks, how long to burn in?" or "Do cats in the room absorb more treble than dogs?".

I only read cable threads for their comedic value nowadays.