Why cable debunkers are wrong.

[Craig M.]

you do like setting yourself up joel, conclusive proof? that's more then the manufacturers can manage, maybe you should let them know...

you're quite right though, an open mind and a pair of ears is all anyone needs to decide for themselves.

 

[JoelSim]

Craig M.:
you do like setting yourself up joel, conclusive proof? that's more then the manufacturers can manage, maybe you should let them know...

you're quite right though, an open mind and a pair of ears is all anyone needs to decide for themselves.

My ears are my proof, that's scientific enough for me.

 

[Anonymous]

hows the audio analogue going joel

any reason why you chose that particular model i just listened to the settanta verdi the one with the valve preamp and was impressed

the only concern would be how it handles hard rock or badly produced stuff like oasis

 

[matthewpiano]

I'm very much with Joel on this. Seeing as I listen to music using my ears, if they hear a difference it is more than good enough for me.

 

[JoelSim]

one off:
hows the audio analogue going joel

any reason why you chose that particular model i just listened to the settanta verdi the one with the valve preamp and was impressed

the only concern would be how it handles hard rock or badly produced stuff like oasis

Yes I really like it, and I suspect there is better to come when it goes on a rack rather than sitting at the bottom of 4 components on my old wooden floorboards as it is now.

Beautiful, natural sound which conveys more emotion than the Arcam pairing, and ever so slightly more detail thus far. I also imagine it will show up bad recordings but the Arcams did that anyway. Certainly on a Roberta Flack CD I tried there was quite a lot of background noise when I put it up loud, having said that the vocals were magnificent.

I'm very pleased - about 12 hours yesterday!

PS I chose this one because of several factors:

- round about the same RRP as my CDE and speakers

- good reviews, offering what I know my tastes in hifi are, which tends towards the relaxing

- liked the looks, it's big like the CDE so will look better on a big, thick rack like the hifiracks Podium

- perceived matching to be good with CDE as they are from the same part of the world

I was looking at many amps and in the end it kept coming back to 2, this one, and the Pathos Logos. I just couldn't bring myself to spend as much as the Logos would have cost as I'm supposed to be moving house in the not-too-distant.

 

[JoelSim]

PS I don't do hard rock. Not my scene.

Acoustic, vocals, dance, electonic, folk, anything from Angus & Julia Stone to Seb Fontaine.

 

[chebby]

JoelSim:

- perceived matching to be good with CDE as they are from the same part of the world

Is geographical proximity of manufacturers a well-known way of matching components?

 

[JoelSim]

chebby:JoelSim:

- perceived matching to be good with CDE as they are from the same part of the world

Is geographical proximity of manufacturers a well-known way of matching components?

I read somewhere that they were all part of the same group and had close links I think.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm always amuzed by those believers who 'trust their ears', not realizing that they actually hear with their minds.
Comparing cables to amplifiers is, well, let me use the word stupid. Even if it might be very difficult to distinguish between two amps on the same speakers in the same position in the same room (and thus some of us claim that speakers are the one thing that really counts in a hi-fi system), many amplifiers are actually made to sound in a special way, different from certain other amps. An amp is made up of a lot of things that are meant to affect the characetr and qualities of the sound. While cables are simple and completely passive devices; doing nothing more than leading electrical currents between components.
Dismissing blind tests in general, claiming that they don't allow the listener to really listen, might be effective rhetorics -- but it's still .... What properly made blind tests do, is making the listener able to compare. Which is the only way to tell (and not only guess) if something is different from something else. Some of the 'de-bunking' blind tests are actually made with recordings the testers knew very well, and could listen to in full if they pleased.

No human being has an accurate memory of sound that lasts more than a few seconds. If you hear a difference when instantly switching between two cables sending the same signal between the same devices, then there's a difference. If you hear a difference between two cables with an interval of minutes, then you use your mind; not your hearing. If you have to physically change the cable, there's also a lot of physical conditions, besides the mental ones, that might change.

 

[idc]

Fahnsen:

No human being has an accurate memory of sound that lasts more than a few seconds.

If that is true how do we recognise sounds?

 

[Andrew Everard]

Cable Lover:It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.
Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

The point is, Cable Hater, that - oh dammit, I really can't be bothered...

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:Cable Lover:It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.
Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

The point is, Cable Hater, that - oh dammit, I really can't be bothered...

Quite right Andrew. Pointless as some people walk round with their fingers in their ears.

 

[idc]

Andrew Everard:Cable Lover:It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.

Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

The point is, Cable Hater, that - oh dammit, I really can't be bothered...

I can (for the first time in ages). You single out copper, but there is a lot more to cable manufacturing than that. The connector, how it is plated, the purety of the metals used, stranded or solid core, RFI, EMI, impedance, the sheething used, braided or not, the list goes on.

The role of a cable is to send a signal. The signal is sensitive to the likes of EMI and RFI and other factors. That 'sensitivity' is what audiophiles will hear when one cable is changed to another. Part of our hobby involves listening out for those, often minute differences. Describing the differences is like trying to describe taste and the differences between wines. If you put your mind to it and with practice and even a bit of instruction you can pretty accurately tell the difference between wines and recognise their grapes etc. I say the same is true for cables and hifi equipment in general.

If you have a cable with a cheap primarily plastic connector that is crimped onto low purety copper that is sheethed in the thinnest of plastic and compare it to one with gold plated connectors made the highest of tolerances soldered onto a cable that is copper with a silver mesh surround that is braided to reduce RFI and made with the highest purety of metals, you would expect a difference.

 

[JoelSim]

idc:Andrew Everard:Cable Lover:It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.
Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

The point is, Cable Hater, that - oh dammit, I really can't be bothered...

I can (for the first time in ages). You single out copper, but there is a lot more to cable manufacturing than that. The connector, how it is plated, the purety of the metals used, stranded or solid core, RFI, EMI, impedance, the sheething used, braided or not, the list goes on.

The role of a cable is to send a signal. The signal is sensitive to the likes of EMI and RFI and other factors. That 'sensitivity' is what audiophiles will hear when one cable is changed to another. Part of our hobby involves listening out for those, often minute differences. Describing the differences is like trying to describe taste and the differences between wines. If you put your mind to it and with practice and even a bit of instruction you can pretty accurately tell the difference between wines and recognise their grapes etc. I say the same is true for cables and hifi equipment in general.

If you have a cable with a cheap primarily plastic connector that is crimped onto low purety copper that is sheethed in the thinnest of plastic and compare it to one with gold plated connectors made the highest of tolerances soldered onto a cable that is copper with a silver mesh surround that is braided to reduce RFI and made with the highest purety of metals, you would expect a difference.

That's rubbish mate, a cable is a cable in the same way that a cheeseburger from McDonalds tastes just like a ribeye steak, it's just beef.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:If that is true how do we recognise sounds?

Perhaps the same way we recognize anything, without actually remembering every subtle nuance?

Say that you have a favourite painting, made by an old master. You've seen the original in the museum many times, and you have a high quaility reproduction on your wall. You might say that you knew this picture very well.

Say your neighbour has a high quality reproduction too. By going between his and your apartment, would you be able to identify every difference in hue and colour? I would say not. Only by placing the pictures side by side in the same room, you'd be able to do a comparison that was worth anything.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:Andrew Everard:Cable Lover:It is up to the manufacturers of cables to validate their claims,which they never do except in bland, meaningless statements such as "tighter bass" or "greater soundstage". These words are parrotted by journalists almost verbatim, like an extension of an ad or press release.

Given that the vast majority of cables are made from OFC Copper, please can someone explain what processes are changing from one brand of wire to another to make them sound different? Copper is an element with known physical properties/values. How can this change when electricity is passed along it?

I have long thought that cable manufacturers claims should have a case to answer with the Advertising Standards Authority.

The point is, Cable Hater, that - oh dammit, I really can't be bothered...

I can (for the first time in ages). You single out copper, but there is a lot more to cable manufacturing than that. The connector, how it is plated, the purety of the metals used, stranded or solid core, RFI, EMI, impedance, the sheething used, braided or not, the list goes on.

The role of a cable is to send a signal. The signal is sensitive to the likes of EMI and RFI and other factors. That 'sensitivity' is what audiophiles will hear when one cable is changed to another. Part of our hobby involves listening out for those, often minute differences. Describing the differences is like trying to describe taste and the differences between wines. If you put your mind to it and with practice and even a bit of instruction you can pretty accurately tell the difference between wines and recognise their grapes etc. I say the same is true for cables and hifi equipment in general.

If you have a cable with a cheap primarily plastic connector that is crimped onto low purety copper that is sheethed in the thinnest of plastic and compare it to one with gold plated connectors made the highest of tolerances soldered onto a cable that is copper with a silver mesh surround that is braided to reduce RFI and made with the highest purety of metals, you would expect a difference.

You have to a certain extent, made my point for me.

• At the end of your note you say you would expect a difference. Therefore you believe you hear a difference. It's called psychacoustics!!
• You mention the connector. "If" a cable sounds different, how do you know if it's the connector or wire that makes the difference?
• Same for gold plating
• If the purity of the metals is a factor, then the test results for the cables should be published. If the test results are similar for impedance, capacitance etc. then why would there be a difference between them? It would save the gullible an absolute fortune
• EMI and RFI are external factors and have nothing to do with cable performance unless shielding is present. Again, with today's technology, its effectiveness can be measured very accurately, there's no need for guesswork
• Do you think product designers use equipment to measure performance, or just their ears? And do you think their ears perform flawlessly, or even the same day after day?

 

[JoelSim]

To all the non-believers, you'll be pleased to know that this is my very last post ever on a cable war thread. I find it hugely frustrating when I (and many others) are trying to help people to make informed decisions based on our own experiences, and all we come up against are those who have never tried, haven't heard a difference, have made their minds up without actually experiencing anything. Anyway here are a few examples, based on the fact that after 2 years I know how my system sounds intimately, which I did until recently when I upgraded. I would find it difficult now to properly evaluate a new cable to my own satisfaction as I'm not used to to the sound completely.

Going back to these examples then.

A Chord Chameleon Silver Plus interconnect replaced a van den hul D102 III between CDP and amp. Both roughly the same RRP so not testing chalk against cheese. Immediately, within 30 seconds of tuning music on it was apparent that the Chord had a much much weightier sound than that it replaced.

A Nordost Shiva mains cable went on to my CDP, replacing a Merlin Black Widow. When I put the Merlin in over the supplied cable I remember there wasn't much difference at all. However, putting the Nordost in, again it was open-mouthed wonder at how a mains cable could add so much to a sense of 3D in the sound, the separation between instruments.

Moving my kit from a stack on the floor onto a bespoke wooden rack made from solid oak had an equally large change, playing a tune that has been a favourite of mine for 20 years, the bass rythmn was so much more at the fore of the track and much tighter than I had ever noticed it being before. These results were supported by all the other tunes I avidly played that night. Think kid in a sweetshop at the positive improvements. I will further support that with this quote from a text sent by the buyer of my rack today 'Everything fits a treat and it looks superb. Definite change in sound too, most obviously in the low end. Sound stage improved too...'

I will finish this off by saying many of today's cable manufacturers offer a 30/60 day money back guarantee as standard on all ther cables. If this was taken up to a great degree it would put them out of business but they are confident enough in their products to be able to offer this. What has the punter got to lose?

Just to confirm too, I am a critical listener. Yes there are times when it's just background music, but much of my listening is late at night when all is quiet and perhaps the missus has gone to bed. Yes I write on this forum. Yes I think about things. Yes I do other things but some of my listening is simply savouring just how good music sounds. Therefore I'm in a decent position to evaluate new things with music and sound that I know. Once I'm very familiar with my upgraded system I will be able to properly evaluate things again, but at the moment I'm still learning about the new sound.

The Nordost change above was like upgrading the CDP, the rack had an effect like changing the drive units to a better model and so on. If you really don't want to believe then that's up to you, you are missing a trick, all I will say is that you should stop short of preventing someone else from benefitting when you haven't tried it. That's not fair on them.

 

[idc]

Fahnsen:

idc:If that is true how do we recognise sounds?

Perhaps the same way we recognize anything, without actually remembering every subtle nuance?

Say that you have a favourite painting, made by an old master. You've seen the original in the museum many times, and you have a high quaility reproduction on your wall. You might say that you knew this picture very well.

Say your neighbour has a high quality reproduction too. By going between his and your apartment, would you be able to identify every difference in hue and colour? I would say not. Only by placing the pictures side by side in the same room, you'd be able to do a comparison that was worth anything.

When I audition kit of any type I listen to Massive Attack 'Angel' to see if, and how badly the opening bass distorts and how distinctive the 'miaow' sound is at 42 seconds. I then listen to Pink Floyd 'Summer 68' to see how the chorus sounds when it kicks in. There are a number of other tracks that I use for specific sounds. I can remember them, very accurately. They are not subtle nuances. The sounds, distortions, bass, cymbols are either there or not or clear or not.

 

[idc]

JoelSim:

To all the non-believers, you'll be pleased to know that this is my very last post ever on a cable war thread.

Hopefully you will reconsider this decision Joel as you are just about the most experienced and knowledgeable cabler on the forum. I have had a break from cable threads, but I am now back in the mood.

 

[JoelSim]

idc:JoelSim:
To all the non-believers, you'll be pleased to know that this is my very last post ever on a cable war thread.

Hopefully you will reconsider this decision Joel as you are just about the most experienced and knowledgeable cabler on the forum. I have had a break from cable threads, but I am now back in the mood.

I'm not, I haven't heard loads and loads of cables and I can only comment on the 30 or so that I have owned. I can't hold a candle to those whose views are in the review section above - the real experts who also fully believe in cables. I think with the limited experience and differences I've heard, I'm pleased that my own findings have actually matched the experts' on the last few pieces of equipment I have bought, and that's not just cables but components too.

 

[idc]

Cable Lover:You have to a certain extent, made my point for me.

• At the end of your note you say you would expect a difference. Therefore you believe you hear a difference. It's called psychacoustics!!
  
• You mention the connector. "If" a cable sounds different, how do you know if it's the connector or wire that makes the difference?
• Same for gold plating
• If the purity of the metals is a factor, then the test results for the cables should be published. If the test results are similar for impedance, capacitance etc. then why would there be a difference between them? It would save the gullible an absolute fortune
• EMI and RFI are external factors and have nothing to do with cable performance unless shielding is present. Again, with today's technology, its effectiveness can be measured very accurately, there's no need for guesswork
• Do you think product designers use equipment to measure performance, or just their ears? And do you think their ears perform flawlessly, or even the same day after day?

I don't see how it is psychoacoustics if I am listening when testing for very specific sounds at specific times with music I am familiar with. My first experience with cables was after moving. I went to a local electrical shop to by speaker cable. The salesman tried to sell me more expensive cable as it would sound better. I did not believe him. But the next time I moved house I again needed new speaker cable, so bought some and straight away noticed a difference to the sound. So my scepticism was challenged by what I had heard.

With regards to the connector and type of plating, I see the cable as a whole, not just the wire.

With regards to the purity of metals and RFI etc, there are certain measurements that can be produced. But I have not seem anything that directly correlates measured figures to sound quality.

With regards to using your ears I go back to my comments above that I can consistently hear differences between certain tracks when auditioning kit. I either hear distortion or I do not, I either pick out a background sound or I do not and most importantly my spine tingles when a chorus kicks in, or it does not. That is how I know that there is a difference between cables.

 

[gpi]

Are you lot still flogging a dead horse? What's that instrumental track on Floyd's Momentary Lapse of Reason? )

 

[Andrew Everard]

Fahnsen:Say your neighbour has a high quality reproduction too. By going between his and your apartment, would you be able to identify every difference in hue and colour? I would say not. Only by placing the pictures side by side in the same room, you'd be able to do a comparison that was worth anything.

Which is what our reviewers routinely do when cable testing.

 

[JoelSim]

Andrew Everard:

Fahnsen:Say your neighbour has a high quality reproduction too. By going between his and your apartment, would you be able to identify every difference in hue and colour? I would say not. Only by placing the pictures side by side in the same room, you'd be able to do a comparison that was worth anything.

Which is what our reviewers routinely do when cable testing.

QED!

 

[Andrew Everard]

JoelSim:QED!

No, with all cables...