Why cable debunkers are wrong.

jaxwired

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Testing a hyposthesis is not always as straight forward as it might seem. In the 80's Pepsi won lot's of Coke business with little thimble sized blind taste sample they called "The Pepsi Challenge". Much was made of these results which consistently favored Pepsi over Coke. But it turns out that people only preferred Pepsi in thimble sized doses and they would still by Coke over Pepsi in 6 packs.

The cable debunkers remind me of this because they attempt to disprove cable differences with blind test using unfamiliar music on unfamiliar systems. This is the main flaw in the cable debunking tests. The reason there are so many hard core cable believers is because we test on our own systems with extremely well known music. We know our systems very intimately. When a subtle change is introduced it is blatantly obvious.
 

jaxwired

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Andrew Everard:You're foolin' y'self, apparently...

LOL, it's very possible.

There's also lots of people that think that all amps sound identical as do CD players. Only speakers matter. The rest is irrevelent and you might as well buy the very very cheapest you can find.

A wise person is aware of the abysmal track record of mankind at determining absolute truth. The only thing I'm sure of is that I can't be sure.
 

Alec

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I've a good feeling about this one. This thread will finally be the one to prove conclusively, to the whole world, and with uiniversal agreement, that cables do or do not make a difference.

Yes it is.

Despite the way the last such thread ended.

It will.

You'll see.

Tie my hair in bunches and call me Rita if it doesnt.
 
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Anonymous

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jaxwired:

There's also lots of people that think that all amps sound identical as do CD players. Only speakers matter. The rest is irrevelent and you might as well buy the very very cheapest you can find.

That is an interesting point indeed.
 
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Anonymous

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theres no such thing as a cable debunker

we all have to use them no matter what properties we assign to thm

without cables there is silence

besides its the weekend
 

chebby

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Many decades ago enthusiasts would have built their own speaker cabinet(s) and turntable plinth and even built their own kit amplifier or built from scratch to a design published in journals.

Such activity was far more common than it is now and some designs were not even available (economically) unless the hifi hobbyist were prepared to wield soldering iron and saw to get the system he really wanted.

This DIY approach has all but disappeared nowadays, but the urge to tweak and get 'hands on' with the system has remained. The selection of system elements is not enough for some, so instead of picking capacitors, resistors, transformers, valves etc. (like in the old days) the market in cables has developed in the last 30 years to scratch the same itch of wanting 'to get involved' at some more fundamental level than just passively buying ready made boxes.

Note:- This is not a comment on the efficacy (or otherwise) of the art of cable choosing. I will leave the outcome of that debate to others more willing/happy to play than me. (I just use what is recommended by the manufacturer and get on with it. If I am missing out then so be it.)
 

jaxwired

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unleash_me:jaxwired:

There's also lots of people that think that all amps sound identical as do CD players. Only speakers matter. The rest is irrevelent and you might as well buy the very very cheapest you can find.
That is an interesting point indeed.

Great article. I think I remember reading that when it was published. I believe I was a subscriber at the time.

But this article does not address my point that listening to the same system for months every day and the same recording hundreds of times makes the introduction of a change more noticable. But, I'm always open to the idea that it's all in my imagination. That is a possiblity.
 

JoelSim

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jaxwired:unleash_me:jaxwired:
There's also lots of people that think that all amps sound identical as do CD players. Only speakers matter. The rest is irrevelent and you might as well buy the very very cheapest you can find.
That is an interesting point indeed.
Great article. I think I remember reading that when it was published. I believe I was a subscriber at the time.

But this article does not address my point that listening to the same system for months every day and the same recording hundreds of times makes the introduction of a change more noticable. But, I'm always open to the idea that it's all in my imagination. That is a possiblity.

Couldn't agree more. I only ever test something new with a very familiar recording that I have listened to loads and loads.
 

PJPro

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jaxwired:
But this article does not address my point that listening to the same system for months every day and the same recording hundreds of times makes the introduction of a change more noticable.

I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.
 

JoelSim

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PJPro:jaxwired:
But this article does not address my point that listening to the same system for months every day and the same recording hundreds of times makes the introduction of a change more noticable.

I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.

Really? That shows the difference between a computer man and a CD man! I have 4 or 5 albums that I play 2 or 3 times a week each. To me albums have to be listened to in their entirety.
 

PJPro

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Yeah, I couldn't be bothered to keep getting up and changing them either ;-)

But I can't believe you do that over the longer term.....perhaps for a few weeks?
 

The_Lhc

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JoelSim:PJPro:I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.
Really? That shows the difference between a computer man and a CD man! I have 4 or 5 albums that I play 2 or 3 times a week each. To me albums have to be listened to in their entirety.

I don't know where I'd find the time to listen to the same 4 albums 2 or 3 times a week (that's up to 2 hours a day, just listening to music!) or why I'd want to?
 
'Scuse my ignorance but couldn't get to grips with Jaxwired 'blind test' ideas.

Surely it is irrelevent whether or not you have heard the system or piece of music before. If cables make such a difference you should be able to hear the difference whatever. It doesn't need long term aquaintance as time does not factor into it!

If you have already gone to such lengths with your own well known system, and purchased a more expensive cable, then there is always the possibility that you will hear a difference, partly to justify that extra outlay.
 

PJPro

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the_lhc:JoelSim:PJPro:I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.
Really? That shows the difference between a computer man and a CD man! I have 4 or 5 albums that I play 2 or 3 times a week each. To me albums have to be listened to in their entirety.

I don't know where I'd find the time to listen to the same 4 albums 2 or 3 times a week (that's up to 2 hours a day, just listening to music!) or why I'd want to?

Oh, I don't know. I must listen to that amount of music each day. But then again, I do it while online.

One could argue that I do very little "critical" listening....eg listen to music and do nothing else. But that's the way I like it and, TBH, I'm too busy for any other approach.
 

JoelSim

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PJPro:Oh, I don't know. I must listen to that amount of music each day. But then again, I do it while online. One could argue that I do very little "critical" listening....eg listen to music and do nothing else. But that's the way I like it and, TBH, I'm too busy for any other approach.

If you didn't spend all your free time building electronics...
 

JoelSim

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Alears:
'Scuse my ignorance but couldn't get to grips with Jaxwired 'blind test' ideas.

Surely it is irrelevent whether or not you have heard the system or piece of music before. If cables make such a difference you should be able to hear the difference whatever. It doesn't need long term aquaintance as time does not factor into it!

If you have already gone to such lengths with your own well known system, and purchased a more expensive cable, then there is always the possibility that you will hear a difference, partly to justify that extra outlay.

I don't agree at all, you need a benchmark or you can't make a comparison. By choosing a piece of music you know amazingly well and changing one thing, the cable, any changes in how you hear that piece can only be down to the cable. Like I've said before, I've used cables where there's been no discernible difference, a waste of money, and conversely those that have made me sit up and listen with a smile on my face. This would be impossible if I was unfamiliar with the music.
 

JoelSim

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the_lhc:JoelSim:PJPro:I can't think of a track that I've listened to every day for months. I can't think of a track that I've listened to hundreds of times either.
Really? That shows the difference between a computer man and a CD man! I have 4 or 5 albums that I play 2 or 3 times a week each. To me albums have to be listened to in their entirety.

I don't know where I'd find the time to listen to the same 4 albums 2 or 3 times a week (that's up to 2 hours a day, just listening to music!) or why I'd want to?

Yes, on average I would say 3 hours per day listening to music on my system, sometimes no hours, sometimes 8 or more.
 

gpi

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chebby:
Many decades ago enthusiasts would have built their own speaker cabinet(s) and turntable plinth and even built their own kit amplifier or built from scratch to a design published in journals.

Such activity was far more common than it is now and some designs were not even available (economically) unless the hifi hobbyist were prepared to wield soldering iron and saw to get the system he really wanted.

This DIY approach has all but disappeared nowadays, but the urge to tweak and get 'hands on' with the system has remained. The selection of system elements is not enough for some, so instead of picking capacitors, resistors, transformers, valves etc. (like in the old days) the market in cables has developed in the last 30 years to scratch the same itch of wanting 'to get involved' at some more fundamental level than just passively buying ready made boxes.

Note:- This is not a comment on the efficacy (or otherwise) of the art of cable choosing. I will leave the outcome of that debate to others more willing/happy to play than me. (I just use what is recommended by the manufacturer and get on with it. If I am missing out then so be it.)

Good post. I know of a few people who still favour the DIY approach and build valve amps with great success. DIY CD players is a tad more tricky.
 
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Anonymous

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JoelSim:Alears:
'Scuse my ignorance but couldn't get to grips with Jaxwired 'blind test' ideas.

Surely it is irrelevent whether or not you have heard the system or piece of music before. If cables make such a difference you should be able to hear the difference whatever. It doesn't need long term aquaintance as time does not factor into it!

If you have already gone to such lengths with your own well known system, and purchased a more expensive cable, then there is always the possibility that you will hear a difference, partly to justify that extra outlay.

I don't agree at all, you need a benchmark or you can't make a comparison. By choosing a piece of music you know amazingly well and changing one thing, the cable, any changes in how you hear that piece can only be down to the cable. Like I've said before, I've used cables where there's been no discernible difference, a waste of money, and conversely those that have made me sit up and listen with a smile on my face. This would be impossible if I was unfamiliar with the music.

Mmm. Interesting. First of all let me say I'm a believer. I do believe better quality components make a difference.

Now having said that if in order to hear the difference you have to play a piece that you are very familiar with then surely what we are talking about is a very small change in the sound, that's only just discernable because you know that piece of music very well? If you can't hear the difference with a piece you aren't familiar with, what does that say?
 
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Anonymous

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The prosecution rests its case m'lud.

May I suggest the defendant is taken from this place and forced to listen to Cheryl Cole until dead from boredom.
 
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Anonymous

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Speaking about cables I can not understand one thing - why inside a case manufacturers using a tiny rubbish cables (even unshielded), but in outside must be big, chunky and expensive + tons of discussion about them. Why are there so big difference, even for similarly shorth lengths? Is it because builders are engineers and listeners not? Must say I feel little bit frustrated when I open a case see this difference. Which cables are wrong?
 
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Anonymous

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speaker cables definately make a difference (I bought a boxfull of used speaker cable that was removed from restauarants during refurbishment ... some good ones and some cheaper ones) .... I tested loads and they all sounded different ...

the same goes for interconnects ....

however:

I am a bit sceptical when it comes to powercables. I must say that I have never tried testing different ones and the only upgrade (so far) has been a purchase of a Tacima ...

and on my system, that made no difference at all (to my and my wife's ears)
 

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