Which sounds better ?

[andyjm]

Well, I do not agree. Musical tastes. yes, they are a matter of preferencies, then there are few technical points that have to be made clear when we talk about audio formats and quality.

Why people listen to digital music in form of files do use a DAC? Simple: it need the best possible conversion between digital and ANALOG.

Also CD players do have DAC inside: becouse they also need to translate the 0's and 1's to ANALOG

Why this? Becouse the most part of amplifiers are ANALOG equipment and those Digital (class D) also do have internally a DAC to convert digital to ANALOG.

And what about hi-fi speakers? Yes, they are ANALOG and this is the reason becouse we all need all this equipment to translate our modern digital music to ANALOG, becouse our speakers are a ANALOG piece of equipment, so no ANALOG translation, NO music.

Said so, now why a vinyl listening chain composed by a turntable, a pickup (all ANALOG equipment), a stereo amplifier (in class A/B, so ANALOG) and finally a good pair of speakers (ANALOG equipment them too) sound better, undoubtfully better of any digital music IF the source is an ANALOG recording made with an ANALOG BOARD on an ANALOG tape? I don't think it is needed I write the answer it is sooo obvious... It is ANALOG to ANALOG, no frills, no need of conversion, pure sound quality.

If you want to talk about a hi-fi recording of an acoustic instrument like an acoustic guitar, an electric guitar, a violin, a piano, a punping organ, a drums, there isn't still a better way to record them than ANALOG boards becouse 0's and 1's are simply still unable to correctly record an ANALOG instruments. I'm a musician, I play electric and acoustic guitars, bass, piano, organ and pretty much everything it come in my hands, and I've never been able to properly record my instruments on my Hard Disk. I still record them on tape, and like me very many professionals, simply becouse it is better some little hisss from the tape then a metallic sound with no heart (and simply not similar to how a guitar or a piano really play). I can't even record my vintage and beloved Voxx guitar amps over digital, becouse it simply sux big time! Then this is another story, not too much tho.

Then modern technology, computers, information society pushed us on the digital side, but this doesn't mean that is the right way to go: digital is for sampling electronic instruments, restore old registrations and not much more, if we look for something called HIGH FIDELITY.

Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

 

[Electro]

Bringing the thread slghtly back on track, the OP is asking the wrong question.

Given that we know, (it can be empirically proved) that the appealing nature of vinyl playback is due to the character introduced by the vinyl player, the argument should move on to discussing how we can make digital playback appealing in the same way.

Simple tests have shown that adding noise to an otherwise silent digital recording is percieved by many as an improvement, making the sound more natural.

Surely the way forward is to determine those characteristics that, when added to a 'clean' digital recording, make it sound more real, more analogue.

I am not talking about the crass vinyl simulation software that is currently available but something altogether more sophisticated.

Perhaps music could recorded in a place with a natural acoustic , it would add a natural sounding noise floor to the recording rather than just silence .

Failing that the mastering engineer could add an appropriate level of fake room acoustic noise to make the recording sound more like music played in a live space.

I have noticed that every enclosed space has it's own unique low level noise charachter , if you walk into an empty quiet room with your eyes closed then remain still an listen there are always quiet noises in the ambient noise floor of the room that give clues as to the size shape and height of the room , maybe this is the information that is missing in studio recorded digital playback that makes it sound sterile to some people .

Vinyl adds a noisefloor that might simulate this sense of acoustic to some people when they listen to vinyl and be what they miss in studio recorded digital playback .

Or I could be talking rubbish :shifty:

 

[davedotco]

Bringing the thread slghtly back on track, the OP is asking the wrong question.

Given that we know, (it can be empirically proved) that the appealing nature of vinyl playback is due to the character introduced by the vinyl player, the argument should move on to discussing how we can make digital playback appealing in the same way.

Simple tests have shown that adding noise to an otherwise silent digital recording is percieved by many as an improvement, making the sound more natural.

Surely the way forward is to determine those characteristics that, when added to a 'clean' digital recording, make it sound more real, more analogue.

I am not talking about the crass vinyl simulation software that is currently available but something altogether more sophisticated.

Perhaps music could recorded in a place with a natural acoustic , it would add a natural sounding noise floor to the recording rather than just silence .

Failing that the mastering engineer could add an appropriate level of fake room acoustic noise to make the recording sound more like music played in a live space.

I have noticed that every enclosed space has it's own unique low level noise charachter , if you walk into an empty quiet room with your eyes closed then remain still an listen there are always quiet noises in the ambient noise floor of the room that give clues as to the size shape and height of the room , maybe this is the information that is missing in studio recorded digital playback that makes it sound sterile to some people .

Vinyl adds a noisefloor that might simulate this sense of acoustic to some people when they listen to vinyl and be what they miss in studio recorded digital playback .

Or I could be talking rubbish :shifty:

This is all hugely speculative, but we do have some information to go on. For example.....

Play your best vinyl, using compedent hardware/software, record it digitally to CD-R or Flac. Play the vinyl and the digital copy, they are identical, the 'analogue' sound of the vinyl remains in the digital copy.

Adding noise to a quiet digital recording 'appears' to enhance low level detail, making the 'noisy' recording sound more real.

Measured distortion, on even really good vinyl reproduction is much higher than digital, yet it often sounds more appealing.

Maybe we should start from here and find out exactly what it is about vinyl replay that is so appealing. The first thought that comes to me is to see if where the qualities of vinyl actually come from. Ie is it inherent in the compromises of the mastering or cutting process? The record stamping? The character of the playback system? The 'rirual' of playing a vinyl record?

I'll start you off, I have always found that, the better the record player, the closer the sound gets to the CD......... :?

 

[MaxD]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

 

[cheeseboy]

JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

you could learn something from your own posts y'know

 

[matthewpiano]

MaxD, owning instruments and being a musician doesn't change the fact that you are still sharing your opinion and not fact.

I am also a musician - a pianist - and I work with real acoustic pianos every day. IMO digital recording has revolutionised the capture of piano sound. Listen to a piano recording made at Potton Hall, for example (like Martin Roscoe's Beethoven Piano Sonatas discs on the Deux-Elles label), and you will hear recorded sound of a standard that at one time would have been un-imaginable.

Similarly listen to any of the chamber music discs recorded at Champs Hill (on the label of the same name).

In the right acoustic, with the right microphones, and with the right engineer, digital is capable of exceptional results.

 

[davedotco]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

MaxD, you are a treasure........ :rofl:

Keep it up, more fun than a box full of frogs.

Given your infalibility are you really Jorge Mario Bergoglio? I think we should be told.

 

[Cypher]

Given your infalibility are you really Jorge Mario Bergoglio? I think we should be told.

 

[VOE]

"In the right acoustic, with the right microphones, and with the right engineer, digital is capable of exceptional results"

And there lies one of the many conundrums in the whole digital v analogue debate! I feel that the problem today is that with the proliferation of digital technology it is now perceived as being available to the everyman as a DIY package. Computers and software have expanded into the field of sound recording, mixing and mastering. So does this mean that anyone who can operate a PC can also record / mix / master? Of course not, but there are certainly many "home use" kits / studio software packages available and many "studios" now sighted in converted garages and basements to give the ultimate back to basics home-grown feel to the music.

In the field of rock / pop music I'd have to question the merit of some of the recordings made today. Do the "engineers" actually know what they're doing? A lot of awfully bad compressed music has been created over the past 20 years, a time-line that just so happens to coincide with the public up-take of the home PC and the internet. Do so-called professional engineers all have the necessary training and background to do the job properly or are some of them glorified computer operators for hire?

 

[Covenanter]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

MaxD, you are a treasure........ :rofl:

Keep it up, more fun than a box full of frogs.

Given your infalibility are you really Jorge Mario Bergoglio? I think we should be told.

Isn't JMB more into hip-hop?

Chris

 

[cheeseboy]

A lot of awfully bad compressed music has been created over the past 20 years, a time-line that just so happens to coincide with the public up-take of the home PC and the internet. Do so-called professional engineers all have the necessary training and background to do the job properly or are some of them glorified computer operators for hire?

yes, as repeated many times, it's the record companies telling the *mastering* (not mixing) engineers to boost the loudness. If they won't do it, they'll just get somebody in who will, so it's not necessarily that they want to, but at the end of the day, if the person signing your paycheck says boost it, that's what you do.

As for recording in garages etc, that's not really an issue, you can record anywhere, it's just knowing what to do with what you have and what sound you are trying to achieve.

What it has enabled though is bands to record at relatively low cost, either in somebodies house or whatever, then take that in to a proper studio to do the mixing, overdubs etc and save a bucketload of cash, given how expensive it is to hire a proper studio nowadays. That was something that wasn't really available (well nowhere near to the same quality you can do now) back before digital/pro tools came in to the world.

 

[davedotco]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

MaxD, you are a treasure........ :rofl:

Keep it up, more fun than a box full of frogs.

Given your infalibility are you really Jorge Mario Bergoglio? I think we should be told.

Isn't JMB more into hip-hop?

Chris

No Cuarteto is his bag, though he does like a nice tango..... :dance:

 

[Vladimir]

The sound reproduced from analogue formats appeals more than that from digital formats because the distortion in analogue gives a smearing effect, like aliasing in photography. Smoother, softer edges and more rounded presentation. The microphonics give a slight reverb effect that is appealing because it feels more live, ambiental. Noise gives the fake impression of more loudness and we know louder is better, feels more dynamic.

Again I'm posting the test by Harbeth's boss Alan A. Shaw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k

 

[Cypher]

The sound reproduced from analogue formats appeals more than from digital formats because the distortion in analogue gives a smearing effect, like aliasing in photography. Smoother, softer edges and more rounded presentation. The microphonics give a slight reverb effect that is appealing because it feels more live, ambiental. Noise gives the fake impression of more loudness and we know louder is better, feels more dynamic.

Again I'm posting the test by Harbeth's boss Alan A. Shaw. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k

I agree. That's why most digital amps have a bit of a 'dry' sound.

 

[Vladimir]

Basically analogue formats are distortion that resembles music and all digital is a collection of clear artificial tones aproximating music. Only live music is music and no format captures it 100%.

 

[Cypher]

Basically analogue formats are distortion that resembles music and all digital is a collection of clear artificial tones aproximating music. Only live music is music and no format captures it 100%.

But would you agree that a digital amp is more 'honest' sounding because there is less distortion ?

 

[MaxD]

Basically analogue formats are distortion that resembles music and all digital is a collection of clear artificial tones aproximating music. Only live music is music and no format captures it 100%.

True. And live music is all analog even with digital equipment.

 

[andyjm]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

Max,

Funny you should ask. When I graduated with an EE degree, I joined the research and designs group of a well known national broadcaster. Having completed their excellent training program, I was put in the recording section, specialising in digital and analogue recording systems for broadcast use. I moved on, but my early career was in high speed digital / analogue systems.

I have an old Akai 4000D reel to reel tape recorder, a Rega Planar 3, a bunch of old LPs and an old amplifier I built myself when I was 14 (all somewhere in the loft).

My listening room has Krell / Martin Logan ESL / Revel equipment with a Squeezebox Transporter / QNAP NAS as source.

I do have a Fender Stratocaster 'blackie' lookalike and a valve Marshall combo. I had lessons from a guy who played with Eric on '24 nights' (at least that's what he told me..). When I stand in front of the mirror, I can pretend I am Clapton. Strangely, my poor attempts at playing the guitar never sound much like him. I have to admit I haven't played it in a while.

I am pretty sure I know what I am talking about. You?

 

[Vladimir]

Basically analogue formats are distortion that resembles music and all digital is a collection of clear artificial tones aproximating music. Only live music is music and no format captures it 100%.

True. And live music is all analog even with digital equipment.

There is no digital sound, only storage. The AD/DA chip converts analogue to digital and vice versa. Vinyl, tape and wax cylinders are neither analogue sound. They are mechanical storage, unlike digital which is mathematical storage.

 

[pauln]

[Max, you are certainly entitled to your opinion about what you prefer, but I am afraid that most of your post about the technical aspects of digital vs analogue recording and playback is nonsense.

I would suggest that if you are having trouble recoding and playing back the instruments you play, that you either read up on the subject, or you obtain advice from the manufacturer of the equipment you are using. Properly setup, even a modest digital arrangement will be able to outperform an analogue record/playback chain.

IMHO LOOLLLLLL. Are you a musician? Are un a recording engineer and producer? Do you simply own some ANALOG material but your stereo amplifier and your speakers? Can you play any instrument especially chords instruments? Do you own a proper music collection but Hard disk files and cds? Do you own musical gears like guitar and bass amplifiers, acoustics and electric guitars, acoustic and electric piano, acoustic and electric guitar? Do you record them on daily basis? Do you own recording equipment both digital and analog? If not, please, JUST PUT A BIG RESONATING IMHO in front of your poor documented posts. Thank you.

Thing is Max, it's not his humble opinion, it's how things are. It might surprise you to learn that both analogue and digital equipment is deigned by electrical and electronics engineers... not musicians (although some of those engineers may well be musicians as well) The engineers know how things work and you clearly don't. I'm sure you're a great musician though...

 

[Vladimir]

Basically analogue formats are distortion that resembles music and all digital is a collection of clear artificial tones aproximating music. Only live music is music and no format captures it 100%.

But would you agree that a digital amp is more 'honest' sounding because there is less distortion ?

Distortion in transducers is significantly larger than distortion in electronics. I believe no one can hear difference between 0.1% THD and 0.001% THD. That is a factor of 100.

 

[jerryapril]

Hi.

With a limited budget you can get an everyday Hi-Fi: Marantz AVR + universal BD player + a pair of good speakers par example.

Forget what a lot from here preaches. You do not need a standalone CDP. Actually, you'd be surprised how many folks not participating here do have AVR's with universal BDP's and a pair of good speakers - bookshelves or floorstanders and enjoy their Hi-Fi music, movies and games. Simples.

And of course, vinyl is so good and so inconvenient... I once listened to it, remember? My granddad even did not have CDs. And so on...

Hear ya!

 

[Cypher]

You do not need a standalone CDP.

I think you do because most bluray players sound crap..........connect a good DAC to your player and you get a whole different sound.

IMO

 

[MrReaper182]

There is no right or wrong answer. Go to a Hi-fi dealer and try both and find out what sounds best to you. Pro-ject do some fantastic turntables that work well with good budget systems.

 

[MrReaper182]

I think it would be a bit daft to dismiss any form of recorded music, no matter how it sounds.

there's gotta be something good about all mediums, which is why i listen to both cd and vinyl and digital music via ipod.

if a company such as Linn can get behind digital music as it has recently, then surely they have heard something good.

they set a standard in vinyl replay, so they seem to know a thing or two about the subject.

i'd say to all, keep your mind and ears open, and enjoy music, in all its forms.

I 100 percent agree with that.