I had Art Emotions (great speakers) but have now changed to Harbeth SHL5.....which to my ears are the best speakers I have listened to, previously had Dali Helicon 400, Wilson benesch Arc, then the Emotions.
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benharlley:FrankHarveyHiFi:
MattSPL:Why would you find the scm40 to be less capable than the best at £4-5k speakers if not in the area of bass performance?
Many ways. We have a lot of speakers up to the £5/6k price point, so naturally we do a lot of dems. Some people want to try certain cheaper speakers to make sure they're not paying more than they ned to - the SCM40 doesn't compete with them.
David can you give me a few examples as am a baffled by this assertion.
ben, how did you find the 40's compared to your monitor audio pl300's when you had them both together?
MattSPL:Why would you find the scm40 to be less capable than the best at £4-5k speakers if not in the area of bass performance?
Many ways. We have a lot of speakers up to the £5/6k price point, so naturally we do a lot of dems. Some people want to try certain cheaper speakers to make sure they're not paying more than they ned to - the SCM40 doesn't compete with them.
David can you give me a few examples as am a baffled by this assertion.
ben, how did you find the 40's compared to your monitor audio pl300's when you had them both together?
I went for the PL300s for AV purpose as i preferred their 'sweet'sound, i must also emphasise here that the finished ebony speaker played a part in decision making as it was going to be in full view in my living area, and preferred the soundstage the ribbon tweeter provided.
One difference i realised about the Platinums over the ATC were that they do need a large room to work at their best,SCM40 could easily be positioned against a wall and there were was no boomy effect in sound.
In my 5.1 set up the bass extension of the Platinums is simply breathtaking yet very musical and highly resoluted.
For 2 channel music listening i have upgraded my speakers from the passive SCM40 to ATC actives as the uncoloured presentaion thats presented in the ATC brand appeals to my listening taste.ATC also offers me the ease of positioning (not fussy about placement).
One difference i realised about the Platinums over the ATC were that they do need a large room to work at their best,SCM40 could easily be positioned against a wall and there were was no boomy effect in sound.
In my 5.1 set up the bass extension of the Platinums is simply breathtaking yet very musical and highly resoluted.
For 2 channel music listening i have upgraded my speakers from the passive SCM40 to ATC actives as the uncoloured presentaion thats presented in the ATC brand appeals to my listening taste.ATC also offers me the ease of positioning (not fussy about placement).
FrankHarveyHiFi:
I've not found the SCM40's to be comparable to the best at the £4,000/5,000 price point, an a sub wouldn't really change that as it's not the sub bass area I'm referring to.
On the basis that you must have tried many more speakers than me I woudl not challenge that!
I've not found the SCM40's to be comparable to the best at the £4,000/5,000 price point, an a sub wouldn't really change that as it's not the sub bass area I'm referring to.
On the basis that you must have tried many more speakers than me I woudl not challenge that!
Frank Harvey
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AlmaataKZ:FrankHarveyHiFi: I've not found the SCM40's to be comparable to the best at the £4,000/5,000 price point, an a sub wouldn't really change that as it's not the sub bass area I'm referring to.
On the basis that you must have tried many more speakers than me I woudl not challenge that!
I did another quick comparison yesterday afternoon while I had the chance, where I compared the SCM40's to the Reference 203/2's (not my favourite, but I thought I'd be kind to the 40's and not put on the 205/2's
) on the Bryston BP26/4Bsst2 pre/power with the Bryston BCD1 CD player. As far as treble is concerned - the KEF just seems to have far more finesse in this area, with better transparency. Mid was a closer affair, although both sounded different due to the differences in the driver type. I do usually find the SCM40's mid driver a little too forward or too revealing, I'm not sure which, but I think think the addition of this loses the easier listenability that it's little brothers possess. Bass was probably the biggest difference. The KEF definitely sounded fuller, with the ATC being leaner, although you'd argue that it was the ATC's being more even across the frequency range. I definitely think the sealed cabinets of the ATC help with the leading edge of bass notes, but I think many would hear a 'lack of warmth' in this area which people would find less listenable. Having said that, I didn't play about with the KEF's room boundary compensation controls, which would've cut LF by 2dB, and bring things a little closer to the SCM40's as far as balance is concerned (I wish I'd have thought about that when it was set up!) Overall, i would prefer the bass of the SCM40's (I prefer the bass of the 205's rather than the 203's - huge difference), but I felt that higher up the frequency range the KEF was far more listenable, especially with lesser recorded music, which again for this I used RHCP's Blood Sugar Sex Magic. I also used Rage Against The Machine's self titled album, which I find sounds very rough, sometimes harsh on less capable systems but sounds more and more like an audiophile recording the better the system gets. I also tried the better recordings of Mandalay's Empathy from their Instinct album, and Darkness from Phutureprimitive's Sub Conscious album.
On the basis that you must have tried many more speakers than me I woudl not challenge that!
I did another quick comparison yesterday afternoon while I had the chance, where I compared the SCM40's to the Reference 203/2's (not my favourite, but I thought I'd be kind to the 40's and not put on the 205/2's
Great Mini Review David.
I wonder how the Kef 203/2's compare to the MA PL200's
benharlley - I'd agree and say its of the utmost imporatance to have a large room for the PL300's with lots of space around the speaker as well. It makes a massive difference imo.
I wonder how the Kef 203/2's compare to the MA PL200's
benharlley - I'd agree and say its of the utmost imporatance to have a large room for the PL300's with lots of space around the speaker as well. It makes a massive difference imo.
Frank Harvey
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Vinny7: I wonder how the Kef 203/2's compare to the MA PL200's
benharlley - I'd agree and say its of the utmost imporatance to have a large room for the PL300's with lots of space around the speaker as well. It makes a massive difference imo.
Quite favourable actually. After hearing the PL200's in isolation, I didn't really expect them to be up to the competition, but they did well, and would finish in the top half of what I thought were the best speakers in a big shoot out that took place with the KEF Reference 203 and 205, KEF XQ40, MA Platinum PL200, ProAc Response D28, SCM40, PMC Fact 8 and OB1i, and Spendor A9.
My top 3 were the 205/2's, PL200's, and OB1i's. Again, this was using the Bryston system mentioned earlier.
benharlley - I'd agree and say its of the utmost imporatance to have a large room for the PL300's with lots of space around the speaker as well. It makes a massive difference imo.
Quite favourable actually. After hearing the PL200's in isolation, I didn't really expect them to be up to the competition, but they did well, and would finish in the top half of what I thought were the best speakers in a big shoot out that took place with the KEF Reference 203 and 205, KEF XQ40, MA Platinum PL200, ProAc Response D28, SCM40, PMC Fact 8 and OB1i, and Spendor A9.
My top 3 were the 205/2's, PL200's, and OB1i's. Again, this was using the Bryston system mentioned earlier.
I have not heard the Kef Reference series but if all Kef speakers have the same kind of sound through their series then they are to colored to me. When i went to my dad's house i brought my standmount speakers with me to have a listen and compared them to his KEF Q7's, it's not ideal to compare standmounts to floorstanders but i was looking for the tonal signature in a speaker, i was confident my speakers would impress. The Kef's were overly warm to me in the midrange and low registers while his old Technics speakers in that room when switched on were also colored but in the opposite direction, the punchy bass and highs were prominent with this one. That said, a colored speakers isn't nessecairly a bad speaker of coursse. By carefull matching you can remove or add something to the sound but only little i believe. At last i also listened to my Wharfedale Diamonds which i sold in the meantime, they were a little less colored then the Kef or Technics speakers but certainly not in the same league, they sounded smaller and a lot less refined. I search a pretty neutral and natural sound in a speakers but that doesn't mean everyone does or shoud have the same taste of coursse. If i could compare my current speakers to anything then i would compare them to the smooth easy on the ear sound of a Dynaudio but when played a certain "live" recording or genre when the volume is up, they sound a bit livelier and are close to the sound of Klipsh speakers with their horns i found.
Frank Harvey
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Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
The midrange driver used in PMC's OB1, PB1 and EB1 speakers is the same driver that is in the IB1's i used to own. I had an issue with a slight buzzing noise from the mid driver at one stage so removed it for inspection. It has a very small magnet structure and in terms of detail and dynamics it is inferior to even the scm19.
And B&W's midrange unit in the N803's i owned was beaten by the PMC unit in detail and transparency, only bettering the PMC in Dynamic ability.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
The midrange driver used in PMC's OB1, PB1 and EB1 speakers is the same driver that is in the IB1's i used to own. I had an issue with a slight buzzing noise from the mid driver at one stage so removed it for inspection. It has a very small magnet structure and in terms of detail and dynamics it is inferior to even the scm19.
And B&W's midrange unit in the N803's i owned was beaten by the PMC unit in detail and transparency, only bettering the PMC in Dynamic ability.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Totally different planet to Q series
So this means that Kef is a brand that doesn't have the same kind of sound in their different series of speakers? So, every series of speakers sound different like it is an other brand your listening to?? Ok, some brands have different speakers wich sound very different from one an other. For example, i could easely spot this on the belgium "LINK" brand of speakers, they all sound very nice but leave a certain colored signature of their own wich is different with every type of speaker. I'm not easely impressed becausse the pricetag goes up from a certain brand. I was once having B&W nautilus 804's to compare with my Wharfedale EVO 30's at that time and was totally unimpressed by them while they were actually costing a lot more. The Wharfdale's sounded more musical and rhytmic while the B&W's were a bit more refined in the highs. Considering that my Hyperions sound a large step above these Wharfy's... Since then i'm not easely impressed anymore but you never know, i always keep an open mind.
Totally different planet to Q series
So this means that Kef is a brand that doesn't have the same kind of sound in their different series of speakers? So, every series of speakers sound different like it is an other brand your listening to?? Ok, some brands have different speakers wich sound very different from one an other. For example, i could easely spot this on the belgium "LINK" brand of speakers, they all sound very nice but leave a certain colored signature of their own wich is different with every type of speaker. I'm not easely impressed becausse the pricetag goes up from a certain brand. I was once having B&W nautilus 804's to compare with my Wharfedale EVO 30's at that time and was totally unimpressed by them while they were actually costing a lot more. The Wharfdale's sounded more musical and rhytmic while the B&W's were a bit more refined in the highs. Considering that my Hyperions sound a large step above these Wharfy's... Since then i'm not easely impressed anymore but you never know, i always keep an open mind.
Frank Harvey
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MattSPL: Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.I didn't have the B&W's to try, but then, B&W aren't one of my preferred speakers anyway. The PMC's shine depending on model, and on the day I tried this 'supertest', they shone very brightly.
The midrange driver used in PMC's OB1, PB1 and EB1 speakers is the same driver that is in the IB1's i used to own. I had an issue with a slight buzzing noise from the mid driver at one stage so removed it for inspection. It has a very small magnet structure and in terms of detail and dynamics it is inferior to even the scm19.It's not always about the size of the magnets, as some manufacturers use different types of magnets. It's alos not always down to how expensive they are - I'm told that the HF unit in the ATC entry level series is a relatively cheap one - many top quality speakers over the years have used cheaper bass drivers or treble units over the years, after all, everything is built to a budget. It's not always about how expensive the drivers are, it's being able to use what you have effectively.
The midrange driver used in PMC's OB1, PB1 and EB1 speakers is the same driver that is in the IB1's i used to own. I had an issue with a slight buzzing noise from the mid driver at one stage so removed it for inspection. It has a very small magnet structure and in terms of detail and dynamics it is inferior to even the scm19.It's not always about the size of the magnets, as some manufacturers use different types of magnets. It's alos not always down to how expensive they are - I'm told that the HF unit in the ATC entry level series is a relatively cheap one - many top quality speakers over the years have used cheaper bass drivers or treble units over the years, after all, everything is built to a budget. It's not always about how expensive the drivers are, it's being able to use what you have effectively.
I realise its not always down to cost and size, but from my experience, the scm19's are better in the mids than the PMC's upto but not including the IB2i. And the scm40's midrange performance should be better than the 19's, therefore better than the PMC's also.
MattSPL:
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
Stumpy21:MattSPL:
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
That is why i said the scm40 would outperform PMC's upto but not including the IB2, because the IB2 uses a better mid unit than the models below it.
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
That is why i said the scm40 would outperform PMC's upto but not including the IB2, because the IB2 uses a better mid unit than the models below it.
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
MattSPL:Stumpy21:MattSPL:
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
That is why i said the scm40 would outperform PMC's upto but not including the IB2, because the IB2 uses a better mid unit than the models below it.
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
I was very underwhelmed by the ATC speakers used as reference at WHF Towers, were they the SCM40s? They lacked any kind of involvement with the Bryston pre/power combo for me.
I would plead with you to audition before buying anything at that price, it's very much down to personal taste. My speakers take me in and stroke my ears, the ATCs just shouted at me.
Ive owned PMC's and B&W's in the £5k price range, neither of which had the midrange transparency or sweet trebble that the ATC scm19's have. So i would think that the ATC scm40 with its studio soft dome midrange unit and the same tweeter as the scm19, would Easily outperform a large proportion of the competition in and around the £5k mark.
Nobody builds drive units with the quality and craftmanship of ATC.
You need to spend £8900 for the PMC IB2i to get PMC's own high quality midrange dome if you want to compete with the ATC's mid dome.
I think you will find that the PMC drive units in the IB2's are of a far superior quality to those used in the SCM40's and the mid-range, well actually the whole response, will be a lot more pleasing.
My vote would be to try and audition some second hand IB2's, should be available for less than £5K. BUT they will need to be used with the correct stands.
That is why i said the scm40 would outperform PMC's upto but not including the IB2, because the IB2 uses a better mid unit than the models below it.
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
I was very underwhelmed by the ATC speakers used as reference at WHF Towers, were they the SCM40s? They lacked any kind of involvement with the Bryston pre/power combo for me.
I would plead with you to audition before buying anything at that price, it's very much down to personal taste. My speakers take me in and stroke my ears, the ATCs just shouted at me.
atcs are very revealing of everything upstream, including the electronics, music been played and the way it was recorded.
i think they're about as close to having no sound of their own as you can get from this price range, and that can take some getting used to, i was a little underwhelmed by them at first. a flat frequency response and very little distortion give them a presentation that hides little.
whf usually say that with good recordings there is little to match them, and i think they're right but the trade off is revealing more about bad ones. if the op has a collection full of the libertines, etc. then i definitely wouldn't recommend them, but equally, if they have a lot of well recorded music they might save a lot of money - worth a demo at any rate. and in their own room, rather then a test room.
i think they're about as close to having no sound of their own as you can get from this price range, and that can take some getting used to, i was a little underwhelmed by them at first. a flat frequency response and very little distortion give them a presentation that hides little.
whf usually say that with good recordings there is little to match them, and i think they're right but the trade off is revealing more about bad ones. if the op has a collection full of the libertines, etc. then i definitely wouldn't recommend them, but equally, if they have a lot of well recorded music they might save a lot of money - worth a demo at any rate. and in their own room, rather then a test room.
MattSPL:
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
The IB2's would only be about 3" wider than millerman's current speakers, though they are very heavy!!
Their sound is very exact and true to the original, clinical in some ways, that is why they are used in a lot of studios for mastering/mixing. The recordings you are listening to could well have been assessed using IB2's.
Used IB2's would be good, but the problem with the larger PMC's is their width in comparison to a lot of the competition. They wont fit into the average room quite so easily.
The IB2's would only be about 3" wider than millerman's current speakers, though they are very heavy!!
Their sound is very exact and true to the original, clinical in some ways, that is why they are used in a lot of studios for mastering/mixing. The recordings you are listening to could well have been assessed using IB2's.
shiseido
Sorry mate ive just seen your post. i will be using my schonberg as a second system and put them with the telly. TBH they are too nice and too rare to trade in.
but good luck. I can tell where I got them from though is this is any help.
Sorry mate ive just seen your post. i will be using my schonberg as a second system and put them with the telly. TBH they are too nice and too rare to trade in.
but good luck. I can tell where I got them from though is this is any help.
The Epos Encore 50 are due in the September issue according to Simon Lucas. These are currently priced at £5k. It will be interesting to see what the review team think of them.
Have any other forum members heard the Encore 50's yet?
Have any other forum members heard the Encore 50's yet?
Frank Harvey
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JoelSim:I was very underwhelmed by the ATC speakers used as reference at WHF Towers, were they the SCM40s? They lacked any kind of involvement with the Bryston pre/power combo for me.
I would plead with you to audition before buying anything at that price, it's very much down to personal taste. My speakers take me in and stroke my ears, the ATCs just shouted at me.
Agreed.
I think you've found what we find Joel - the 40's just don't seem as listenable as it's little brothers. Whether this is due to the midrange driver revealing too much I'm not sure, but we just find the whole listening experience far more enjoyabe with the 19's and 11's.
I would plead with you to audition before buying anything at that price, it's very much down to personal taste. My speakers take me in and stroke my ears, the ATCs just shouted at me.
Agreed.
I think you've found what we find Joel - the 40's just don't seem as listenable as it's little brothers. Whether this is due to the midrange driver revealing too much I'm not sure, but we just find the whole listening experience far more enjoyabe with the 19's and 11's.
Frank Harvey
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Craig M.:Whf usually say that with good recordings there is little to match them, and i think they're right but the trade off is revealing more about bad ones. if the op has a collection full of the libertines, etc. then i definitely wouldn't recommend them, but equally, if they have a lot of well recorded music they might save a lot of money - worth a demo at any rate. and in their own room, rather then a test room.
I disagree Craig. We find the 11's and 19's deal extremely well with rougher music, although we do find the 40's are quite different in comparison. Do you now feel your 19's deal with this type of music well? It's the first thing we noticed when we got them in.
I disagree Craig. We find the 11's and 19's deal extremely well with rougher music, although we do find the 40's are quite different in comparison. Do you now feel your 19's deal with this type of music well? It's the first thing we noticed when we got them in.
FrankHarveyHiFi:
Quite favourable actually. After hearing the PL200's in isolation, I didn't really expect them to be up to the competition, but they did well, and would finish in the top half of what I thought were the best speakers in a big shoot out that took place with the KEF Reference 203 and 205, KEF XQ40, MA Platinum PL200, ProAc Response D28, SCM40, PMC Fact 8 and OB1i, and Spendor A9.
My top 3 were the 205/2's, PL200's, and OB1i's. Again, this was using the Bryston system mentioned earlier.
And how did the Proac D28 and the Spendor A9 fare in this shootout? From the discussion here, it seems that the ATC SCM40 is the only speaker in the 2k price range that gets a mention against the others that are twice the price. If the D28 and the A9 didn't fare that well, then I guess the D18 and the A6 (both of which are in the same price range as the SCM40) are totally out of their league?
Quite favourable actually. After hearing the PL200's in isolation, I didn't really expect them to be up to the competition, but they did well, and would finish in the top half of what I thought were the best speakers in a big shoot out that took place with the KEF Reference 203 and 205, KEF XQ40, MA Platinum PL200, ProAc Response D28, SCM40, PMC Fact 8 and OB1i, and Spendor A9.
My top 3 were the 205/2's, PL200's, and OB1i's. Again, this was using the Bryston system mentioned earlier.
And how did the Proac D28 and the Spendor A9 fare in this shootout? From the discussion here, it seems that the ATC SCM40 is the only speaker in the 2k price range that gets a mention against the others that are twice the price. If the D28 and the A9 didn't fare that well, then I guess the D18 and the A6 (both of which are in the same price range as the SCM40) are totally out of their league?
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