What is the Cyrus sound

[Vladimir]

How about the Alan Shaw “all competently designed amps operating within their design limits should sound the same” school of thought?

Should amplifiers have a recognisable ‘house sound’?

But only if his comments are taken in context. When engineers (rather than 'hi-fi people) talk about amplifiers, they are really talking about power amps. With compedent designs and under controlled conditions, I doubt anyone could tell power amps apart.

The real complication comes when we consider integrated amplifiers, it is the difference in the way that the amps sensitivity and gain stages are managed. There was a long thread (prompted by Vladimir) about these effects and, for example, describing how high levels of gain in the input stages of some amplifiers seems to be responsible for their 'fast' slightly aggressive character.

In normal systems I think this is what makes the difference, obvious examples would be the smooth, slightly relaxed feel of a modern Arcam against the pacier more assertive qualities of a Naim, the Arcam having much lower sensitivity and balanced gain structure compared to the sensitive, overdriven Naim.

This is a pretty 'broad brush' explanation, backed only by personal experience, but it does help explain why amps sound different in real world applications with different speakers and in different systems.

Added complication is how loudness is integrated (tapering off as you turn up volume) comparative to input sensitivity. Maybe there is no loudness compensation. Cyrus uses digital volume control, so it may sound different than amp with analogue pot that happens to have significant channel imbalance. etc.

In the end, these are mostly design interface variations that give the impression of different sonic character.

 

[MajorFubar]

Since 1997 I've only owned Arcam and Leema. As both are very different in terms of presentation, I'm not sure the theory of a house sound exists per se.

Surely that's contradictory?

 

[Gray]

...works for me.

In any discussion on the Cyrus sound, it's never long before you hear the term 'fast' is it? But think about what that actually means.

No amplifier can reproduce transients faster than they were recorded - so it (surely) follows that no amp can be too fast.

I've said it before but, to me fast is normal. After all, who wants an amp that's anything less than fast?

My sort of music has brass stabs and percussion - don't want anything slowing this down. Check out 'The Sound Table':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkDmZCsX2v4

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think Cyrus is a fast sound from the context of the transients or dynamics or whatever you want to call it. How quickly and crisply you get on and off sounds with volume shifts. I’d definetely call cyrus a fast sound in my cyrus signature system and I’ve gone through the ranges from a 6dac to x powers with a pre dac and then to range topping signature stuff with x200 signature amps and dac xp signature pre amp/dac. But naim can sound fast too from what I’ve heard but not at a similar price to my cyrus stuff where bass can dominate and be more woolly than cyrus and not as tight. The naim sound is good in the midrange, whereas cyrus has a wider spectrum accross the board, is faster and has loads of detail. But whereas naim has tonal rich bass within the sound, cyrus doesn’t and has a leaner tonal presentation. This often gets mistaken for being bass light, which is not the case with the range topping mono x300 signature power amps, and the x200 signature amps too. I prefer the cyrus sound but I’ve heard more expensive naim stuff sound better unsurprisingly. The cyrus stuff at the price level of my system is more real, faster, dynamic, and clearer and just conveys a better sense of realism and the music than price equivalent naim stuff which is comparatively woolier, less detailed, and a bit more of a mix mash.

Its also very real with Cyrus, good timbre, and the detail brings out the layers of the music which makes it more engaging and involving. I’d say naim systems competing with Cyrus at the same price are a bit more lost in this sense, with Cyrus better value if you like these virtues in music. Best Cyrus systems are quite a bit better than entry or mid level systems, as you perhaps might expect.

On the cyrus one I’d definetely go for one over a 6dac, even less expensive, not sure you could say the same for the 8 2 dac qx, But a lot comes down to whether you like class a/b versus class d of cyrus one.

hope everyone had a good Xmas.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

My last proper stereo was an all Cyrus setup with a CD-XT feeding a DAC-X feeding a Pre-X feeding two X-Powers.

Initially it sounded a bit "thin". Highly detailed but lacking the oomph in the bass department.

Changing from Mordaunt Short Mezzo 6 floorstanders to ProAc Studio 140 floorstanders cured that entirely.

So I would say pair Cyrus kit with £1000 plus speakers with plenty of taut punchy bass capabilities or forget it.

Adding PSX-Rd didn't do much incidentally. Maybe that final 1%, but at sitting room levels not so much. Spend your money on (1) better speakers (2) good interconnects and (3) good speaker cables - ideally bi-amped if your system can be bi-amped - instead.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I wouldn’t agree with some things there benedict but I may have a bit more experience of Cyrus. The x powers are only about 140 watts in mono mode and I’d agree they don’t have the slam (I had two x powers with a pre dac ) comparatively. Also a bit woolly relatively. But the amps like the 8 2 dac qx and cyrus one can be used with sub £1000 speakers very well and are dynamic at their price. This is a cyrus trademark. But I also think you’d tend to find speakers in the sub £1000 bracket aren’t anywhere near as dynamic as those in the plus £1k bracket too.

But in some respects I’d tend to agree with you that the x powers aren’t hugely dynamic. It’s when you go for the mono x200 and x300 power amps that you go up considerably in performance to x powers but you do pay for it. When they brought the anniversary system out 3-4 years ago the spin off became the signature series, and you could then get mono x200 signatures (like mine) and mono x300 signatures (the current model) with upgraded internal power supplies and some filtering changes I think.

The psx-r power supplies do a lot depending on how good the speakers are, what the rest of the system is, and what type of cyrus unit is in question . On CD players they make a good difference, on the current phono signature and the dac xp signature pre/dac that I have it’s essential to use one. Currently they make the most difference on the phono and dac xp sig. The sound is lacking in detail and dynamics without one. The psx-r2 is an improvement too in some circles, but in others it’s slight.

My advice would be if you’ve got decent cables which give good sound, and have cyrus stuff and decent speakers, psx-r power supplies are going to do more, especially as you can pick up psx-r units for a few hundred quid. You can upgrade a psx-r to psx-r2 for £350 via cyrus. Psx rs are comparatively slight on x powers and old pre dac models. Some say they are very good on the 8 dac because I think it takes care of the dac or pre stages separately, so unsurprising.

 

[drummerman]

My dabbling with cyrus is at the lower end. I have to say a psx-r will lift either an amp or cd player to the 'next' level.

More sensible investment than 'better' expensive cabling at this level.

A PSX-r2 is now over £745 so putting that into good speakers does make sense if you have bad ones, bearing in mind that at this sort of money you are still not getting the best new.

The PSX-R previous model Is £500 new. This will not buy fantastic speakers and I'd be inclined to say it's a no brainer for the power supply. It's also interchangeable with different Cyrus products so can be carried forwards if and when upgrades happen.

Versatile, relatively cheap and guaranteed to make a difference.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’d agree and I’m to believe off what others have said, that a psx-r2 isn’t much different to a psx-r. Therefore I doubt it would make sense to pair a new psx-r2 with old generation cyrus amps. Also because a psx-r can be had for £200 or less used whereas a psx-r2 is £545 more, for not much difference. Where it makes sense is if you’ve got a psx-r, you can upgrade it to second generation for about £300 with dealer discount.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

To Quest -

I never got to hear the Signature series as I had returned to the US by the time they came out.

As for power - the X-Powers in twin mono mode deliver(ed) 2 x 100 watts RMS, so using two of them (one for decoupled HF, the other for decoupled LF) arguably delivered up to 200 WPC, quite enough for a 10 x 12 flat living room I assure you! And since increasing the decibels would require a heck of a lot more watts anyway....

Dynamics on the Cyrus stuff can't be faulted IMHO. If anything sounded "wooly" it was probably down to the speakers being used. The Cyrus sound could be described as being almost TOO clinical. Transistor amps at their best or worst, depending on your music and ears, with none of the smoothing of valve amps or transistor amps tweaked to sound more like valve amps.

To Drummerman:

I am sure the benefits of the PSX-Rs of any "mark" are heard more at the lower end of the Cyrus range, but my point is that I think the +£s would be better spent, at least initially, on either going up the Cyrus range a step or two, or added to the existing speaker budget.

The biggest problem Cyrus has IMHO is that by sticking to their trademark cases they can't fit big enough power supplies, smoothing circuitry and the electronics of whichever amp you happen to be talking about into the same case. Hence the need for the separately cased power supplies.

I also think the reason you see a lot of PSX-Rs for sale on eBay is due to people like me trying them and not really hearing a noticeable bang for their buck. Yes they improve things, but only marginally at the top end of the Cyrus range.

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I think the thing is though that once you increase the power of the amp you improve its dynamic headroom, which is what you are really doing with a more powerful amp, not necessarily to go louder. The effect is obviously to make the music more real, so you can listen at same volume level as x powers but get much better sound. They are also cleaner and clearer amps too.

I’m very pleased with the sound I’ve got which I think is fantastic and agree cyrus is one of the best for dynamics. They do get said as being ‘too clinical’ but I think that’s only if speakers are mismatched and it’s possibility bright, or speakers lack warmth, as it’s a bit of a misnomer to say something is too clinical, implying in detail etc. You can never have enough detail in hi Fi if it’s tempered with other sound qualities imho. I like the fact that it’s not smoothed as nothing is added or taken away, and the idea you make the tone of the overall balance of music as bassy when music itself has or should have no bass/treble colouration, only the sum of the parts of the instruments, is wrong.

I think you do on the whole get better benefits going up the range than adding psx-rs to improve sq for same pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) sound quality. But psx-rs definetely have more benefit as you go up the range in my experience. On a £1000 ish stream xa, not much difference. On £1000 x powers they increase soundstage but not huge. If you have a £1600 pre dac qx and an x power, the psx-r will do the most on the pre dac. Similarly if you put the same psx-r on the £3000 dac xp signature it does more than the pre dac. So much so when I inadvertently hadn’t turned my psx-r on at the mains I thought I had a problem with my dac xp signature, until I realised the power supply wasn’t on. It isn’t a marginal change, it hugely takes the detail and dynamics out of the dac xp signature without the psx-r connected.

On the case size, i know the CD transports ( cdt, and cd xt signature) now have the power supplies in them so don’t need a separate psx-r, as well as some power amps, but cyrus wouldn’t be the first to sell you power supplies. It’s an upselling thing I geuss. But it’s only x powers that need them as power amps. I know keeping the case the same enables them to compete better on price, as economies of scale in keeping the same case accross the range.

The reason you get lots of the psx-rs on eBay I think is that when you sell any component it makes the psx-r obsolete, so needs to be sold too. Also if you upgrade from x powers to a stereo 200 or mono x300s you don’t then need the psx-rs anymore, hence flooding the market. Also older cyrus cd transports and most of their CD players, had psx-r sockets, whereas current ones don’t tend too. Plus people tend to buy the pre dacs and then buy a psx-r later for it, driving eBay demand.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

All I can really add is that Cyrus kit is nigh on impossible to get in the US so my next proper stereo probably won't, sadly, be Cyrus, although it will be European. I just don't like the sound of American kit.

 

[newlash09]

IAM sure you know better than me. But I have a parasound halo integrated and absolutely love it to bits. Please try to audition it

Should be easy in the USA sir

 

[newlash09]

To my parasound recommendation. Absolutely neutral , but a bit laid back. Not too much too. Just enough to give a mellow sound

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

All I can really add is that Cyrus kit is nigh on impossible to get in the US so my next proper stereo probably won't, sadly, be Cyrus, although it will be European. I just don't like the sound of American kit.

ill gladly help if I can and I did to a friend in Australia when they lost the cyrus importer. I’m pretty sure lots of uk cyrus dealers would still honour warranties for any returned units under warranty to the dealer, for the sake of vying for overseas business, particularly if you don’t have any us importers or any local cyrus dealer.

Isnt American stuff all about all out brut force but not much quality and nuance. It might be a prejuded view I’ve picked up on from what others have said, but I’m pretty sure not so.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

If / when (week more likely the if) I have the cash for a decent stereo and the Memsahib is on a coma or something and can't stop me, I will look at options. But right now it would all be speculative. Primare looks like a contender though....

 

[seemorebtts]

I would describe the Cyrus sound as filtered and compressed but with lots of detail. Well that's what my cdi sounded like

 

[drummerman]

All this shows how devisive audio is, even within same brand owners. There usually are variables too such as personal preferences, rest of system, speakers and most important the room.

Take personal recommendations (or negativity), as valuable as they can be, with a pinch of salt. Its just that ... personal opinions (including of course mine).

Then there is of course the need to justify the expense of the latest, greatest purchase with heeps of praise (usually followed by a damning of the predecessor). Just saying ...

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

I’d say if it’s detailed but compressed that’s pretty much a contradiction.

 

[seemorebtts]

I’d say if it’s detailed but compressed that’s pretty much a contradiction. 

I found the sound very flat like it was being compressed.vocals were struggling to shine. The cdi wanted to control everything you were hearing which can be a good thing but for me I wanted something to be open and airey giving vocals room to breathe. Put a psxr2 on it and this would improve but not as good as the primare cd32 but the cdi had more detail than the primare which for £1000 is pretty darn good

 

[QuestForThe13thNote]

Put a primare cd source into a primare amp it’s probably designed to work better than a cyrus cdi. But put a cyrus cd xt signature transport or cd-t transport into a cyrus dac xp signature pre/dac with psx-r/r2 power supply and twin mono x200/x300 signature power amps, a great combo. The cdi is a good CD player with a great 32 bit single stereo dac, but best cyrus cd spinners are the transports where you can utilise the digital out into dual mono architecture of the dac xp signature ie 32 bit upsampling dacs for each channel (2 dacs). But system matching is obviously key.