What is a powerful amp?

[matt49]

I'd have thought it would depend on the nature of the distortion. Most decent amps will have protective circuitry that prevents them outputting really nasty stuff when overstretched, e.g. the famous 'soft-clipping' circuits of the original NAD 3020. The sonic effect of these circuits will presumably be to compress the dynamics of the music. This shouldn't do any damage to your speakers, but it still amounts to distortion.

 

[iceman16]

Does distortion usually "harm" an amp or speakers be either minor or major?

Very possibly.

Driving a speaker with a heavily clipped signal from an overdriven amplifier can be dangerous, Such a signal is virtually a squarewave with a power that might be higher than the rms output of the amplifier. Furthermore, the voice coil may be driven and held outside the magnetic gap (the flat, top of the squarewave), no longer subject to the cooling effect of the airflow and the magnet assembly, the coil can burnout in a split second.

Even worse, some amplifiers produce a small but significant DC offset when heavily into clip, again this forces the coil out of the gap and causes burnout. Of couse amplifiers driven hard for long periods may overheat, if the amplifier is not adequately protected the components in the amplifier may well be working outside their safe operating area and actually burn out.

These are of course at the extremes of amp/speaker behaviour, but any dealer will tell you 'monday morning' stories of blown speakers and customers saying they were not playing that loud and the amplifier is less powerful than the speaker rating etc, etc.

So perhaps not that 'extreme' after all!

Cheers DDC.. Many moons ago I have experienced a possibly blown speaker bass driver from my b&w 703s using Naim amp(250.2). While Im doing some gardening I've turned the volume up loud and after a while I noticed one of the bass drivers just making some "garble" noise. Fortunately I've manage to buy a spare bass driver but not so cheap

 

[chebby]

In fact, that doesn't seem to be exactly true either. Shaw admits that the lower level will be inadequate to drive the speakers in some circumstances (playing demanding music loud in a large room) ...

If talking about the little P3ESRs then what idiot would entertain the notion of playing them loud in a large room?

The original BBC monitors (on which these are based) were intended to be used in very small one man 'studios' (more like booths) or in outside broadcast vans and not - generally - for music unless they wanted to gauge the sound from a small speaker device like a transistor radio. The operator would be sat no more then a couple of feet away from them (or 'it' as they often only used a single, mono speaker) and wouldn't be blasting his/her brains out trying to recreate 'concert hall' (or large studio) SPLs! They had big speakers like the LS5/8s for that with these active, bi-amp'ed 'engines' ...

Bespoke Chord SPM800s (AM8/20) with 160 watts - 1 Kilowatt each (depending on the load) and the BBC R&D active cards inside.

 

[Vladimir]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

specs on my amp says 55 watts @8 ohms and 85 watts @4ohms and specs on my speakers state recommended amplificantion 30W-120w into 8ohms unclipped progs.

so that makes me undestand that my amp has enough power to drive the speakers. Now i have 2 questions.

a) what would have happened if my amp was less than 30watts and vice versa more than 120w?

b) what ever is unclipped programme?

< 30W it means you can't go loud enough for typical listening needs with that particular loudspeaker without pushing the amp into clipping. If you go into clipping, you may blow a tweeter or other drivers.

> 120W it means you can go loud enough for typical listening needs with that particular loudspeaker and have sufficient headroom without stressing the amp to its limits. The first to hit its limits will be the speaker when the amp pushes 120W.

< 30W vs > 120W the later will go louder with cleaner sound with that particular loudspeaker.

My B&W 600s (86db) recommend an amp of 30-100watts yet my NAD 3020 (20watts) can drive them to well above normal listening levels easily, in fact anything past 10 o,clock on the volume dial is uncomfortably loud, even on low level (-10db) 12 o' clock is too loud.

So 20 watts can easily be more than adequate for normal & even very loud listening

I bet it's clipping like mad but NAD has that soft clipping circuit so your speakers or the amp don't blow up and the distortion isn't harsh on the ears. You can buy a small chip amp from ebay for $20 and your jaw will drop how loud it can drive speakers and it barely has 10W in it. Remember the big and loud ghettoblaster boomboxes of the 80's? Speakers no more than 5W and amp 3W, but they sure went loud.

It certainly isn't "soft clipping" because that is turned off. lol

As you say it may be shouting but if so it's doing so it's in a very nice, polite & melodic fashion that doesn't sound at all harsh or strained.

It's currently playing Enya with the volune at around "5 o'clock" and I can hear it quite clearly in the next room (1930s house with proper brick walls not plasterboard)

So I still maintain that less than 30w can be perfectly adequate

Must be the PowerDrive doing the magic then. If I could pay you a visit I would demostrate you a non-NAD 30W, 60W or 100W amp clipping and blowing up itself and/or the speakers. It's easy and I've experienced it many times. I'm not in the UK so no magic show sadly. You should try it though.

Getting clean 105dB SPL at 3m out of domestic floorstanders with integrated amps is really not as easy as it seems. It requires power and power handling. 30W desktop amps are background music gadgets and I have zero interest in them for a main rig.

 

[matt49]

[...] 30W desktop amps are background music gadgets and I have zero interest in them for a main rig.

On first reading I thought you'd written 'man rig'. Which would have made sense, sort of. *pardon*

 

[iceman16]

Sorry to the OP.. but does quality of internal parts of an amp makes really a "difference" set aside power output and specs?

 

[Vladimir]

[...] 30W desktop amps are background music gadgets and I have zero interest in them for a main rig.

On first reading I thought you'd written 'man rig'. Which would have made sense, sort of. *pardon*

I've owned many 30W-60W amps and I simply could not use them for anything but casual background or informative listening. Everytime I want loud and uplifting the good enough tenwatters suddenly run out of steam very very quickly. Like Dave said, 10W is plentiful most of the times, but for those jumpy songs suddenly you are craving kilowatts. Penis related or not, the progression is not linear.

 

[matt49]

[...] 30W desktop amps are background music gadgets and I have zero interest in them for a main rig.

On first reading I thought you'd written 'man rig'. Which would have made sense, sort of. *pardon*

I've owned many 30W-60W amps and I simply could not use them for anything but casual background or informative listening. Everytime I want loud and uplifting the good enough tenwatters suddenly run out of steam very very quickly. Like Dave said, 10W is plentiful most of the times, but for those jumpy songs suddenly you are craving kilowatts. Penis related or not, the progression is not linear.

The future is Watts. 3000 of them.

 

[Vladimir]

 

[iceman16]

Im just wondering why there are some forum members here on trade who does'nt share their opinions?

 

[Gaz37]

A while back somebody drew a comparison to car engines IIRC saying that a 100bhp car would be straining more at 70mph than say a 300bhp car would be?

Now if we say that 70mph is equivalent to the loudest you will ever play your music and that between 30 & 50mph is typical than the 100bhp car is perfectly adequate, even if you come to a steep hill when doing 50 you have enough power to spare & if you feel like pushing things it's just about capable of 100+. That being the case why waste money on a 300bhp car, especially if you never drive above 80?

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

A while back somebody drew a comparison to car engines IIRC saying that a 100bhp car would be straining more at 70mph than say a 300bhp car would be?

Now if we say that 70mph is equivalent to the loudest you will ever play your music and that between 30 & 50mph is typical than the 100bhp car is perfectly adequate, even if you come to a steep hill when doing 50 you have enough power to spare & if you feel like pushing things it's just about capable of 100+. That being the case why waste money on a 300bhp car, especially if you never drive above 80?

good point

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

Sorry to the OP.. but does quality of internal parts of an amp makes really a "difference" set aside power output and specs?

no need to be sorry, i am quite enjoying this thread. Learing so many new things.

 

[Jota180]

http://geoffthegreygeek.com/amplifier-power/

 

[Jota180]

A while back somebody drew a comparison to car engines IIRC saying that a 100bhp car would be straining more at 70mph than say a 300bhp car would be?

Now if we say that 70mph is equivalent to the loudest you will ever play your music and that between 30 & 50mph is typical than the 100bhp car is perfectly adequate, even if you come to a steep hill when doing 50 you have enough power to spare & if you feel like pushing things it's just about capable of 100+. That being the case why waste money on a 300bhp car, especially if you never drive above 80?

You have the variable of speaker load too. So if the car is towing a 4 ton trailer maybe then the 100bhp car will be struggling at those speeds on hills whereas the 300bhp car will not. So it's important to match the speakers with your amp.

 

[Jota180]

A while back somebody drew a comparison to car engines IIRC saying that a 100bhp car would be straining more at 70mph than say a 300bhp car would be?

Now if we say that 70mph is equivalent to the loudest you will ever play your music and that between 30 & 50mph is typical than the 100bhp car is perfectly adequate, even if you come to a steep hill when doing 50 you have enough power to spare & if you feel like pushing things it's just about capable of 100+. That being the case why waste money on a 300bhp car, especially if you never drive above 80?

That looks like a workable analogy.

Of course 95% of the time I will drive for 50mph, but oh boy those 5% make all the difference in car ownership. I'm sure you understand why it exists, why Ferraris exist. If you can experience excitement and adrenalin from driving 50mph, you are one lucky man. I simply cannot.

Trivia. Did you know that the cause of traffic congestions is slow driving and breaking often? This is why in the German autobahns you have to drive fast or else you get a slow speed ticket. Same reason why circular flow crossroads replace traffic light operated ones.

Roundabouts! America needs more of them.

 

[Vladimir]

A while back somebody drew a comparison to car engines IIRC saying that a 100bhp car would be straining more at 70mph than say a 300bhp car would be?

Now if we say that 70mph is equivalent to the loudest you will ever play your music and that between 30 & 50mph is typical than the 100bhp car is perfectly adequate, even if you come to a steep hill when doing 50 you have enough power to spare & if you feel like pushing things it's just about capable of 100+. That being the case why waste money on a 300bhp car, especially if you never drive above 80?

That looks like a workable analogy.

Of course 95% of the time I will drive for 50mph, but oh boy those 5% make all the difference in car ownership. I'm sure you understand why it exists, why Ferrari or AMG Mercedes exist. If you can experience excitement and adrenalin from driving 50mph, you are one lucky man. I simply cannot.

Trivia. Did you know that the cause of traffic congestions is slow driving and breaking often? This is why in the German autobahns you have to drive fast or else you get a slow speed ticket. Same reason why circular flow crossroads replace traffic light operated ones.

 

[drummerman]

Vladimir, if you say that 30w/ch amplifiers can't give a visceral and impactful sound you clearly have never heard a really well matched valve amplifier/speaker set-up ... .

No, they may not have the bass grip of a thousand watt solid state amplifier but in some other respects, distortion notwithstanding, probably give as much if not more musical enjoyment to some (clearly not you).

As has been mentioned here before, power isn't everything. How it is delivered clearly matters too.

Give me the above musical and bouncy sounding valve amplifier with excellent micro dynamics anytime over a seemingly frigid sounding multi hundred watt behemot which only comes alive with volume knob turned north of a hundred watts (unless my listening room suddenly is larger than the queens toilet).

Of course, the above compares the best of one kind with the worst of the other. Things are not always that clear cut and there are exceptions to both examples but in my limited experience amplifiers with smaller power supplies still sometimes have the upper hand when it comes to rythm and pace (bounce ... ).

You once posted your opinion on Naim amplifiers and their input sensitivity resulting in overload/distortion. Perhaps but so what? If a little distortion is needed to make a performance enjoyable, why not. Personally I'd rather have something technical 'perfect' and sounding good, unfortunately that is not always the case as most of us which have dabbled in this hobby for decades know.

Yes, they need careful speaker matching but then even if you have 1000 watts, partnered badly it will still sound bad but admittedly, speaker driving ability will be greater.

I have never heard a Class G or even the new hypex powered amplifiers so can't comment on those.

However, having said all of the above, I appreciate this thread is about what is a powerful amplifier, not necesseraly about what makes an enjoyable and musical one which, ultimately, is subjective and may not combine the two.

 

[Vladimir]

Vladimir, if you say that 30w/ch amplifiers can't give a visceral and impactful sound you clearly have never heard a really well matched valve amplifier/speaker set-up ... .

No, they may not have the bass grip of a thousand watt solid state amplifier but in some other respects, distortion notwithstanding, probably give as much if not more musical enjoyment to some (clearly not you).

As has been mentioned here before, power isn't everything. How it is delivered clearly matters too.

Give me the above musical and bouncy sounding valve amplifier with excellent micro dynamics anytime over a seemingly frigid sounding multi hundred watt behemot which only comes alive with volume knob turned north of a hundred watts (unless my listening room suddenly is larger than the queens toilet).

Of course, the above compares the best of one kind with the worst of the other. Things are not always that clear cut and there are exceptions to both examples but in my limited experience amplifiers with smaller power supplies still sometimes have the upper hand when it comes to rythm and pace (bounce ... ).

You once posted your opinion on Naim amplifiers and their input sensitivity resulting in overload/distortion. Perhaps but so what? If a little distortion is needed to make a performance enjoyable, why not. Personally I'd rather have something technical 'perfect' and sounding good, unfortunately that is not always the case as most of us which have dabbled in this hobby for decades know.

Yes, they need careful speaker matching but then even if you have 1000 watts, partnered badly it will still sound bad but admittedly, speaker driving ability will be greater.

I have never heard a Class G or even the new hypex powered amplifiers so can't comment on those.

However, having said all of the above, I appreciate this thread is about what is a powerful amplifier, not necesseraly about what makes an enjoyable and musical one which, ultimately, is subjective and may not combine the two.

I've seen gun hobbyist debate if sniper shooting accuracy can be improved by using a better scope or a better rifle or certain type of amunition etc. Round and round they go.

30W amps can sound as good as 1000W or better, or the same, or worse, whatever. The real world issue for me is if I buy a low powered tube/ss amp, I'll have to go for the matching technology of its age and unfortunatly pay through the nose for good efficient fullrange speakers to get the high SPL, low distortion, fullrange sound I want. On the other hand, if I stick to the typical low efficient speaker (under 90dB) I can just get more powerfull amp for slight price increase since SS watts are cheap and SS electronics are fairly consistent (unlike transducers). I personally want high SPL with low distortion and will first try the route that gives me that for less money. If I can treat myself from extra income I would certanly try variations. Sky* is the limit.

*Eskimo word for wallet.

 

[drummerman]

Vladimir, if you say that 30w/ch amplifiers can't give a visceral and impactful sound you clearly have never heard a really well matched valve amplifier/speaker set-up ... .

No, they may not have the bass grip of a thousand watt solid state amplifier but in some other respects, distortion notwithstanding, probably give as much if not more musical enjoyment to some (clearly not you).

As has been mentioned here before, power isn't everything. How it is delivered clearly matters too.

Give me the above musical and bouncy sounding valve amplifier with excellent micro dynamics anytime over a seemingly frigid sounding multi hundred watt behemot which only comes alive with volume knob turned north of a hundred watts (unless my listening room suddenly is larger than the queens toilet).

Of course, the above compares the best of one kind with the worst of the other. Things are not always that clear cut and there are exceptions to both examples but in my limited experience amplifiers with smaller power supplies still sometimes have the upper hand when it comes to rythm and pace (bounce ... ).

You once posted your opinion on Naim amplifiers and their input sensitivity resulting in overload/distortion. Perhaps but so what? If a little distortion is needed to make a performance enjoyable, why not. Personally I'd rather have something technical 'perfect' and sounding good, unfortunately that is not always the case as most of us which have dabbled in this hobby for decades know.

Yes, they need careful speaker matching but then even if you have 1000 watts, partnered badly it will still sound bad but admittedly, speaker driving ability will be greater.

I have never heard a Class G or even the new hypex powered amplifiers so can't comment on those.

However, having said all of the above, I appreciate this thread is about what is a powerful amplifier, not necesseraly about what makes an enjoyable and musical one which, ultimately, is subjective and may not combine the two.

I've seen gun hobbyist debate if sniper shooting accuracy can be improved by using a better scope or a better rifle or certain type of amunition etc. Round and round they go.

30W amps can sound as good as 1000W or better, or the same, or worse, whatever. The real world issue for me is if I buy a low powered tube/ss amp, I'll have to go for the matching technology of its age and unfortunatly pay through the nose for good efficient fullrange speakers to get the high SPL, low distortion, fullrange sound I want. On the other hand, if I stick to the typical low efficient speaker (under 90dB) I can just get more powerfull amp for slight price increase since SS watts are cheap and SS electronics are fairly consistent (unlike transducers). I personally want high SPL with low distortion and will first try the route that gives me that for less money. If I can treat myself from extra income I would certanly try variations. Sky* is the limit.

*Eskimo word for wallet.

Understand.

Our needs are different. In my case most of my listening is done at low'ish volumes, partly because of my living arrangements, partly because it relaxes me that way.

For the odd occasions I need/let rip (no funny jokes) my 90watt or so amplifiers usually do the job though I appreciate they would never replicate the 'real' thing.

For that I go out to live gigs.

 

[Vladimir]

But all my favorite artists are either dead or senile. Can't go to their live gigs unfortunately. *unknw*

 

[drummerman]

But all my favorite artists are either dead or senile. Can't go to their live gigs unfortunately. *unknw*

Yes, I can see the problem there

Another way of getting 'live' volume is of course headphones (or iQ's new Hypex mono's at under £1000 partnered with a reasonably sensitive speaker).

I think AVI's ADM's also peak in the lower 100+ decibels.

 

[NS496]

Informative thread - I've learned a lot from some different viewpoints.

But still, I enjoy listening on my 30wpc much more than my 110wpc amplifier via similar speakers, although the rooms are vastly different in size and acoustic 'character', and the amps have vastly different design philosophies. But I don't prescribe to some views that somehow a low power amp categorically cannot deliver a satisfactory listening experience. There are too many variables beside power (listening volume being one). Granted I'm not listening at insane volumes, and when I really push the 30 watter (as an experiment), I've reached its limits, but they're largely 'academic'. So as always the issue is 'fit for purpose', having a massively overengineered amp is nice, but for all practical purposes I manage well with a product that suits my needs 99% of the time.

taking the car anology further - it is like having a Freelander 2 knowing it does not have the offroad prowess of a Defender, but in actual fact it will cope with 99% of the conditions you'll realistically encounter... Unless you want to cross the Namib - that would represent the 1% aspirational use case when you need a Defender.

 

[manicm]

drummerman, what I've sometimes found is that even for smaller rooms, even for lower volume listening, a well-engineered more powerful amp will sound better than lower powered ones. That has been my experience at home as well.

 

[Electro]

If you want to ind out if your ampifier is powerful enough for your speakers and listening distance then this calculator should give you a good indication. *good*

http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html