What is a powerful amp?

[Vladimir]

Here is an interesting chart. Apparently one can push only 12 amperes through 11 AWG (4mm2) cable. 12A * 20V = 240W

What happens if in peaks (read:short bursts) I'm pushing more than the cable is electrically specified for? Any ideas?

 

[chebby]

If noise in a workplace was measured to be over 85dB for sustained periods then the company would be obliged to provide appropriate ear defenders.

Just how loud are you guys aspiring to get your systems? I've seen some of you talking about 100, 200, 500 and even 1000 watts for speakers that can reach - potentially - ear damaging levels of 85 - 90dB with just 1 watt at 1 metre distance.

No-one seems to have factored in the significant effect - on the sound levels - of room reflections. Most of these efficiency figures (and max SPL etc.) are done in an anechoic room or outdoors on a pole or similar (to avoid reflecting surfaces).

If I sat outdoors on a calm day with no wind or background noises and listened to my system (on turf to avoid reflections) then i'd need a maximum of 28 watts to get 85dBs with 10dB 'headroom' at my usual 3 metres listening distance and my 90dB speakers.

Listening indoors with all the reflections from ceilings, walls floors etc. I probably need a lot less.

 

[RobinKidderminster]

Here is an interesting chart. Apparently one can push only 12 amperes through 11 AWG (4mm2) cable. 12A * 20V = 240W

What happens if in peaks (read:short bursts) I'm pushing more than the cable is electrically specified for? Any ideas?

The electrons squeal and squeak.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

 

[matt49]

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

Going back to my original answer, more power will only mean (subjectively) louder if we're talking A LOT MORE POWER.

More power will definitely mean better overall performance in the event that the less powerful amp clips and the more powerful amp doesn't. The important question is whether this hypothetical event is going to arise. In my circumstances (thirsty speakers, big room, opera at full blast), it did, and a move from 200WPC to 500WPC made a marked difference.

 

[davedotco]

If noise in a workplace was measured to be over 85dB for sustained periods then the company would be obliged to provide appropriate ear defenders.

Just how loud are you guys aspiring to get your systems? I've seen some of you talking about 100, 200, 500 and even 1000 watts for speakers that can reach - potentially - ear damaging levels of 85 - 90dB with just 1 watt at 1 metre distance.

No-one seems to have factored in the significant effect - on the sound levels - of room reflections. Most of these efficiency figures (and max SPL etc.) are done in an anechoic room or outdoors on a pole or similar (to avoid reflecting surfaces).

If I sat outdoors on a calm day with no wind or background noises and listened to my system (on turf to avoid reflections) then i'd need a maximum of 28 watts to get 85dBs with 10dB 'headroom' at my usual 3 metres listening distance and my 90dB speakers.

Listening indoors with all the reflections from ceilings, walls floors etc. I probably need a lot less.

This is very much the point, unless you have some pretty strange kit or listen at antisocial levels, most recorded music requires very little power to play at 'normal' levels.

What people do not seem to realise is that, when circumstances change and the system is turned up, it takes an awful lot of power to make the difference.

As I pointed out earlier, each time you turn the system up by 3 dB, a pretty small difference on a music signal, you double the output requirement, since virtually all the power in music is in the bass region lifting the bass a notch or two and that's double again.

In a normal room, reflections add to the level at the listening position, but a very heavily furnished room adsorbs power, sometimes a lot of it. It also does not help if you have high levels of background noise, a party say, power requirements quickly go through the roof in such situations. If you are lucky you hear the harshness (clipping) and turn it down, if not, blown up hi-fi.

Blown speakers are the usual result and very often the complaint is that I was 'not playing that loud', in a room full of people chatting and having a good time it probably did not sound that loud, but the power requirement was enormous.

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Decibels....

Like expressing densities in carats per cubic furlong or as one of my thermodynamics professors, expressing heat in BTUs (which he called "barsteward [I think that's what he said] thermal units".

Imy injunearing is korrekt*, if power amp "A" puts out X watts, and power amp "B" puts out 2X watts, the decibel increase is -20log10(2X/X) or -20log10(2) or -6.02 dB, which is slightly more than a doubling in the preceived "loudness" of the source. Most people forget it's 20 times the log, not 10.

* My dugrea iz in mekanikal injunearing so any elektricul injunears pleeze korrekt mee

 

[Vladimir]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Is this nonsense?

It is in my opinion. I've read explanations where people have used analogies of car engines, where a 100bhp engine shifting 1,500kg of car at 70mph is struggling more than a 300bhp engine shifting the same car at the same speed because one engine's sweating its nuts off at the near-limit of its power and the other has barely jogged past its walking pace. But I really don't think it's an applicable analogy IMO, because achieving 70-80db in an average home environment doesn't even need a '100bhp' amp.

 

[Vladimir]

Is this nonsense?

It is in my opinion. I've read explanations where people have used analogies of car engines, where a 100bhp engine shifting 1,500kg of car at 70mph is struggling more than a 300bhp engine shifting the same car at the same speed because one engine's sweating its nuts off at the near-limit of its power and the other has barely jogged past its walking pace. But I really don't think it's an applicable analogy IMO, because achieving 70-80db in an average home environment doesn't even need a '100bhp' amp.

To achieve fullrange high SPL with handfull of watts, you need big speaker cabinets with big drivers at high efficiency, litterally PA. Considering we want small and furniture like speakers in our homes, then Hoffman's Iron Law says we must have more powerfull amps to push our inefficient speaker to fullrange high SPL, or sacrifice the bass.

 

[ChrisIRL]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

Are watts cheap though? I'm finding that to be increasingly not the case. Take my Elex r at 72.5w, the model up, the Elicit is about €1000 more expensive for a jump to 105w. Some manufacturers have even bigger price jumps than that. I know it's more than just watts as you jump up a range, but watts themselves aren't cheap because your tied into buying all the other claimed bells and whistles.

Roksan kandy offers the most watts per € as far as I can see, outside of unfamiliar pro dj stuff etc. But then they throw the curve ball of the top caspian m2 model dropping to 80watts vs the Kandys 150w. Maybe they're just cheap cheap watts (birdy watts!). Most manufacturers are giving the perception that better amp by default = more watts, why? We are becoming desensitised to €1000 price jumps here and there for slightly more powerful amps, yet some that see no problem with this would call an ipad or macbook or some such very expensive.

 

[Vladimir]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

Are watts cheap though? I'm finding that to be increasingly not the case. Take my Elex r at 72.5w, the model up, the Elicit is about €1000 more expensive for a jump to 105w. Some manufacturers have even bigger price jumps than that. I know it's more than just watts as you jump up a range, but watts themselves aren't cheap because your tied into buying all the other claimed bells and whistles.

Roksan kandy offers the most watts per € as far as I can see, outside of unfamiliar pro dj stuff etc. But then they throw the curve ball of the top caspian m2 model dropping to 80watts vs the Kandys 150w. Maybe they're just cheap cheap watts (birdy watts!). Most manufacturers are giving the perception that better amp by default = more watts, why? We are becoming desensitised to €1000 price jumps here and there for slightly more powerful amps, yet some that see no problem with this would call an ipad or macbook or some such very expensive.

Now we come to the discussion about 'special watts' and 'cheap watts' etc.

 

[CnoEvil]

I have generally found that more power in company's range of amps gets you a "better" sound...but there may be more than a better power supply going on.

Recently, I heard an Arcam 29, 39 and 49 compared. The A49 was in a different class to the other two (control, detail, bass slam etc.)...and the 39 was a noticeable improvement over the 29.

 

[hybridauth_Facebook_664715932]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

specs on my amp says 55 watts @8 ohms and 85 watts @4ohms and specs on my speakers state recommended amplificantion 30W-120w into 8ohms unclipped progs.

so that makes me undestand that my amp has enough power to drive the speakers. Now i have 2 questions.

a) what would have happened if my amp was less than 30watts and vice versa more than 120w?

b) what ever is unclipped programme?

 

[chebby]

Companies like Behringer (is that right) are reputed to furnish you with thousands of watts for pocket-money prices.

There is an often linked test on the web somewhere that proves they are better watts than anyone else's watts once you cover the Behringer with a tarpaulin or blind everyone in the room.

 

[chebby]

Found it ...

Clicky

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

Found it ...

Clicky

Yeah, but what does it sound like?

Probably great if you're having your own Glastonbury in the back garden, but in the front room?

 

[Benedict_Arnold]

b) what ever is unclipped programme?

Clipping occurs when the amplifier can't produce the power that signal demands.

Imagine a sine wave being output and the output being shown on an oscilliscope. Slowly turn up the volume. The output will remain a sine wave until the amplifier can no longer produce enough power to produce the peaks and troughs of the wave. The output will be flattened or "clipped" at the maximum output of the amplifier. Often, before you hit this point, you'll also get a lot of distortion as the amplifier struggles to keep up.

 

[ChrisIRL]

Could a manufacturer who designs a €1000 amp at 75watts not conceivably modify the amp design slightly to produce 110w instead for much the same price? Instead we find such a design, albeit the increased watts feature kept behind the scenes, costs double. We are just told of better signal paths, output stage etc to justify the hike, when many, as I suspect the manufacturers know, are looking at the watts. Say you had an amp, everything the same except it was offered as a 75watt and a 100w version at much the same price, we all know which would sell. Or lets deliberately cripple the performance of the lower powered models, even slighlty, to give the impression the bigger more expensive models are better. Many a time a design went back to the drawing board I'd say because it sounded too good.

 

[chebby]

Found it ...

Clicky

Yeah, but what does it sound like?

I don't care. Just showing that watts can be cheap. Someone will be along soon to link that hoary old Behringer test where it scorched some audiophile set-up in a blind-test.

 

[Vladimir]

With most things written on this post from all the others but in my case changing from the same make amp 150w to the 250w amp made an overall improvement to the sound from the top end and mostly the bass

so you are saying if i was to swap evo 50 a to a 100a and play the music at same volume level, the SQ will be better?

Going back to my originan question: does more power mean louder or better overall performance too?

More power always means louder, but not always better performance (either from the amp or speaker side). Certanly no speaker performed worse for having more amplifier headroom, but many (if not most) will be bottlenecked by the amp. Whole different matter is if we can't hear the limitation (in peaks) or if we think the deteriorated sound comes off as improvement and higher fidelity. Distortion in certain forms can come off as richness, texture, musicality etc.

Two possible conclusions:

1) Watts are cheap, better have more than less.

2) If you think the Earth is a disc on top of whales, better stick to less watts and enjoy musicality. Less is more. *bomb* *angel*

specs on my amp says 55 watts @8 ohms and 85 watts @4ohms and specs on my speakers state recommended amplificantion 30W-120w into 8ohms unclipped progs.

so that makes me undestand that my amp has enough power to drive the speakers. Now i have 2 questions.

a) what would have happened if my amp was less than 30watts and vice versa more than 120w?

b) what ever is unclipped programme?

< 30W it means you can't go loud enough for typical listening needs with that particular loudspeaker without pushing the amp into clipping. If you go into clipping, you may blow a tweeter or other drivers.

> 120W it means you can go loud enough for typical listening needs with that particular loudspeaker and have sufficient headroom without stressing the amp to its limits. The first to hit its limits will be the speaker when the amp pushes 120W.

< 30W vs [/b]> 120W [/b]the later will go louder with cleaner sound with that particular loudspeaker.

 

[Andrewjvt]

Here is an interesting chart. Apparently one can push only 12 amperes through 11 AWG (4mm2) cable. 12A * 20V = 240W

What happens if in peaks (read:short bursts) I'm pushing more than the cable is electrically specified for? Any ideas?

6mm2 lol

 

[plastic penguin]

I agree with Chebby.

The Hegel boys might as well shut your eyes. How many times recently have we heard from Andrew and a couple of others about how powerful the 360 is. That doesn't impress me at all. What would be far more impressive is how it plays at low/idling levels.

Most of the high end stuff I've heard (Roksan Caspian Monoblocs, Bryston to name just two) were wonderful when cranked to the rafters, but low settings they were complete and utter s###e.

 

[chebby]

I agree with Chebby.

The Hegel boys might as well shut your eyes. How many times recently have we heard from Andrew and a couple of others about how powerful the 360 is. That doesn't impress me at all. What would be far more impressive is how it plays at low/idling levels.

I've no issue with the Hegelians, or their dialectric.

I'm not antithetical to any of their electricals.

 

[Covenanter]

I agree with Chebby.

The Hegel boys might as well shut your eyes. How many times recently have we heard from Andrew and a couple of others about how powerful the 360 is. That doesn't impress me at all. What would be far more impressive is how it plays at low/idling levels.

I've no issue with the Hegelians, or their dialectric.

I'm not antithetical to any of their electricals.

I'm impressed by your erudition!

Chris