What does synergy mean?

[John Duncan]

Steve, do you agree that one of the advantages of active speakers is that the manufacturer can closely match the characteristics of an amplifier with the speaker?

Yes.

So closely matching the characteristics of one component with another is a good thing?

 

[steve_1979]

So closely matching the characteristics of one component with another is a good thing?

Yes.

 

[John Duncan]

So closely matching the characteristics of one component with another is a good thing?

Yes.

So you're asking questions you already know the answer to...why, precisely?

 

[steve_1979]

I apologise to everyone if I'm coming accross as being awkward here.

 

[matthewpiano]

I apologise to everyone if I'm coming accross as being awkward here.

I just believe that there's a logical scientific explanation as to why some components sound better together than others. Scientifically speaking what specifically about the sound is 'magic' when you get good synergy?

This is where you have to allow for the subjective. Surely 'magic' is diametrically opposed to anything objective, founded in science?

The truth is that one person's 'magic' might sound truly awful to another.

 

[steve_1979]

So you're asking questions you already know the answer to...why, precisely?

I just believe that there's a logical scientific explanation as to why some components sound better together than others. Scientifically speaking what specifically about the sound is 'magic' when you get good synergy?

Is it just a case of having low distortion and a tonal character that the listener likes or is there some other specific part of the sound that makes a difference?

 

[ifor]

I just believe that there's a logical scientific explanation as to why some components sound better together than others. Scientifically speaking what specifically about the sound is 'magic' when you get good synergy?

You seem to have a very 2D view of it all. Audio / sound quality / Hi Fi sound is far too multifactorial for a simple explanation and even if all the science is understood few of here would understand it.

 

[Overdose]

Two types of synergy seem to exist here.

Electrical synergy, where the components work at their optimum

Sound synergy, where the components give the most satisfying listening experience

The two can be entirely independent of each other or one and the same, depending on tastes.

 

[matthewpiano]

Two types of synergy seem to exist here.

Electrical synergy, where the components work at their optimum

Sound synergy, where the components give the most satisfying listening experience

The two can be entirely independent of each other or one and the same, depending on tastes.

:cheers:

 

[moon]

The room you listen in and your own ears are far more important in the outcome of how your music will sound. Whilst its important to have the right setup for your listening environment, its almost of no value if your ears are shot, and you live in a huge echoey cave.

or a Deathstar,

Although I'm sure The Emperor was pretty well kited out in the HiFi side of things.

 

[moon]

The room you listen in and your own ears are far more important in the outcome of how your music will sound. Whilst its important to have the right setup for your listening environment, its almost of no value if your ears are shot, and you live in a huge echoey cave.

or a Deathstar,

Although I'm sure The Emperor was pretty well kited out in the HiFi side of things.

sorry :beer:

 

[John Duncan]

So you're asking questions you already know the answer to...why, precisely?

I just believe that there's a logical scientific explanation as to why some components sound better together than others.

Why do you believe that it's an advantage to be able to match amps and speakers?

 

[steve_1979]

The room you listen in and your own ears are far more important in the outcome of how your music will sound. Whilst its important to have the right setup for your listening environment, its almost of no value if your ears are shot, and you live in a huge echoey cave.

or a Deathstar,

Although I'm sure The Emperor was pretty well kited out in the HiFi side of things.

:cheers:

 

[steve_1979]

Why do you believe that it's an advantage to be able to match amps and speakers?

If a amplifier is well matched to a pair of speakers it won't have limited dynamic range and/or clip during the dynamic peaks of music. This means it will sound better.

 

[John Duncan]

Why do you believe that it's an advantage to be able to match amps and speakers?

If a amplifier is well matched to a pair of speakers it won't have limited dynamic range and/or clip during the dynamic peaks of music. This means it will sound better.

I thought just having enough power did that.

As did you, of course...

 

[hoopsontoast]

Synergy is basically matching components that compliment each other.

Example : Amplifier matching

I have had two pais of 80dB speaker (ATC SCM10 and Keesonic Kolt). I have tried a variety of amplifier with them-

Bantam Gold (15wpc), T-Amp (8wpc), Decware Zen SET (2wpc), Denon PMA-2000AE (80wpc), Sony TA-F670ES (90wpc), Rega Brio3 (38wpc), Arcam AVR200 (85wpc) and Sony TA-F770ES (90wpc).

And the best with the Kolts was the Decware, T-Amp and 770ES. Now thats quite a large range of power outputs that seem to work really well, when in theory it should not. The Decware worked really well just from a 'hifi' view as it had the best soundstage, amazing mid-range and a very fast, punchy mid bass. We measured it and it was producing about 1% 2nd Harmonic distortion at ~0.6w output, and you know what, it sounded great!

The 770ES was the opposite where the soundstage was nothing special, but it has oodles of power that only really was noticable bass transistents but just sounded 'right' overall.

As an example, the PMA-2000AE had the same oodles of power but really sucked all the life out of it so I would say there is more than distortion/lack of clipping to amp and speaker matching.

In real world use, I could not get either the T-Amp or Decware to clip with 80dB speakers, so IMO, distortion and clipping is only an issue if you are playing far too loud anyway.

 

[steve_1979]

Synergy is basically matching components that compliment each other.

Example : Amplifier matching

I have had two pais of 80dB speaker (ATC SCM10 and Keesonic Kolt). I have tried a variety of amplifier with them-

Bantam Gold (15wpc), T-Amp (8wpc), Decware Zen SET (2wpc), Denon PMA-2000AE (80wpc), Sony TA-F670ES (90wpc), Rega Brio3 (38wpc), Arcam AVR200 (85wpc) and Sony TA-F770ES (90wpc).

And the best with the Kolts was the Decware, T-Amp and 770ES. Now thats quite a large range of power outputs that seem to work really well, when in theory it should not. The Decware worked really well just from a 'hifi' view as it had the best soundstage, amazing mid-range and a very fast, punchy mid bass. We measured it and it was producing about 1% 2nd Harmonic distortion at ~0.6w output, and you know what, it sounded great!

A 2wpc amplifier sounded great with 80dB speakers! This is very suprising because all of the low powered amplifiers that I've heard have limited dynamic range even all normal listening volume levels.

The 770ES was the opposite where the soundstage was nothing special, but it has oodles of power that only really was noticable bass transistents but just sounded 'right' overall.

As an example, the PMA-2000AE had the same oodles of power but really sucked all the life out of it so I would say there is more than distortion/lack of clipping to amp and speaker matching.

If there is more to synergy than just dynamic range/clipping distortion then what specifically causes the difference? Is it just different tonal qualities? If it is just the tonal qualities then you'd expect that a graphic equalizer would be able to sort this. Or is there some other factor that I'm missing here because I just can't see what it is.

 

[hoopsontoast]

Steve, honestly I dont know how it works. Some amps just sound better, and suit particular speakers more than others IME.

I really did not expect it to work at all, even the T-Amp/SCM10 combo was really good. Just to add though, i dont listen at high volumes so I never really get to the point where distortion or clipping would become audable. One thing is that both the SCM10 and Kolts are very easy loads for the amplifier so no large impedence dips or phase angles.

I would not recommend using such low power amps and low efficiency speakers in a large room though.

I did try it in a larger room with someone elses speakers (Jordon JX92S based speakers) and it did really well up to the volume I usually listen, but the bass became soft at over that level and it lost its composure. He then plugged his 18w SET amp in (Ming Da MC368 ) and that did everything you could ask for, and that was 'only' 18wpc.