Vote - CD or HD?

[method man]

The most popular 'downloads' will probably be happy memories that can be lived out in full sensory consciousness. (Whether they are actually yours or not will be a minor philosophical pothole on the road to enormous wealth for someone.)

from the film 'strange days' starring ralph fiennes.

 

[Anonymous]

This CD or HD vote spurred me on to perform a little experiment over the weekend to see whether I could better my CD6000OSE KI (which I'm currently looking to upgrade) with a little of this digital music stuff. This is what I did:

Experiment 1:

Wife's new Toshiba laptop running Itunes (Apple lossless files), connected via USB port on Cambridge DACMagic (which currently serves as the DAC for the CD6000). This only allows CD quality (16bit/44KHz) over its USB port. Result, probably as good as the CD, sound might be a little brighter, less warm, but certainly very clear and detailed.

Experiment 2

Add in (my old) USB Creative Sound Blaster box (Audigy 2NX box) WHAT!!, output to the DACmagic via TOSLINK optical now running at 24bit/96KHz into one of the DACMagic main inputs. Result: Possibly marginally better, still no warmth but bags of detail.

Next Experiment planned:

Download some 24bit files (from Linn perhaps) and see how this improves the sound outcome.

It may be a little while before I get this stage done (work gets in the way)

I appreciate that this is all a bit unscientific and that I have a number of limiting factors, namely: laptop as source, Audigy NX, Cambridge DACMagic. I know I would see even better results with a dedicated music server or better DAC etc. What it has demonstrated to me so far is that upgrading my CD player should no longer be the obvious (automatic) path to take. Also, being able to control Itunes on the laptop via an IPhone is a wonderful experience in itself - instant access to any of the music, tracks cued up in advance etc. My future might easily become HD and Vinyl as sources. I do have an issue with the intangible nature of downloaded files and being a bit of an oldie now, I am concerned about the changes in the industry (not all of which are positive) and the impact of not being able to go browsing the record shops etc.

 

[fatboyslimfast]

Sounds similar to my experience.

I still buy all my music on physical media, but then import it into my iTunes - that way I can be sure I'm getting the best quality, and can still look at the sleevenotes if the fancy takes me...

 

[The_Lhc]

fatboyslimfast:I still buy all my music on physical media, but then import it into my iTunes - that way I can be sure I'm getting the best quality, and can still look at the sleevenotes if the fancy takes me...

Yup, I've never downloaded anything in my life.

 

[chebby]

method man:
The most popular 'downloads' will probably be happy memories that can be lived out in full sensory consciousness. (Whether they are actually yours or not will be a minor philosophical pothole on the road to enormous wealth for someone.)

from the film 'strange days' starring ralph fiennes.

Thanks. Interesting.

Looked it up but it only gets 59 percent fresh on RT and after reading the write-ups on amazon etc I don't think it would appeal to me.

 

[The_Lhc]

The most interesting thing about it is the cover of the The Doors' Strange Days by Prong and Ray Manzerak! I remember that as being the first time I noticed my wing mirrors vibrating in time to the music in my car...

 

[idc]

I dispute Chebby's claims that the future is Curries staff drilling holes in your head. At least with streamed music via laptop and DAC, I am future proof.

 

[Clare Newsome]

idc:I dispute Chebby's claims that the future is Curries staff drilling holes in your head..

Coming soon to staff training:

 

[Anonymous]

Since setting myself up with a Sonos system I very rarely use my CD player any more. I've got rid of all of the CD players that I used to have around the house (other than my main one). Having said that I still buy all my music on CD and then rip them to the hard drive myself, I haven't yet downloaded any music.

 

[Anonymous]

Paulwbm:Wife's new Toshiba laptop running Itunes (Apple lossless files), connected via USB port on Cambridge DACMagic (which currently serves as the DAC for the CD6000). This only allows CD quality (16bit/44KHz) over its USB port. Result, probably as good as the CD, sound might be a little brighter, less warm, but certainly very clear and detailed.
[...]

I appreciate that this is all a bit unscientific and that I have a number of limiting factors

Unscientific indeed...

To really compare, you must be able to switch between the music samples immediately, without leaving your listening position. Any delay between samples will mean you're comparing memories; not sound. Any movements will mean changes to the acoustic environment (you can easily test this with a microphone and proper software: Moving the mic as little as half an inch might result in a change in frequency response, big enough to be audible).

Unless the PC messes up things, the only possible limiting factors are the DAC used, the quality of the music files.

As for the samples, I trust the lossless files are ripped from the same CD you're using -- otherwise, it might actually be a different mix. Be sure all 'sound improvement' is turned off in iTunes or other software: EQs and such things will certainly change the sound. Using the default settings might mean there's some 'improvement' going on; be sure you turn it off.

The USB port on the DAC uses a different receiver chip than the S/PDIF inputs. To compare sound quality, all samples should be played through the same kind of input.

Myself I use a remote controlled Inday S/PDIF switch (allowing both coaxial and optical connections), that allows me to switch immediately between different digital sources, using the same DAC input.

Still, knowing what source you're listening to, allows for prejudices that might influence your impression. For a fair test you should not know which sample is which. For a reasonably scientific approach, you should not even know when there's actually a change of samples, and when it's the same sample being repeated.

 

[Anonymous]

in theory - does the sound quality differ using a CD transport Vs a media streamer both outputting digital into the same DAC?

Just wondering if I'm missing something in quality terms?

 

[John Duncan]

 

[Anonymous]

woollyjoe:
in theory - does the sound quality differ using a CD transport Vs a media streamer both outputting digital into the same DAC?

Just wondering if I'm missing something in quality terms?

In philosphical theory everything is possible.

In theory that's relevant in this case: No.

 

[idc]

Fahnsen:.......To really compare, you must be able to switch between the music samples immediately, without leaving your listening position. Any delay between samples will mean you're comparing memories; not sound. Any movements will mean changes to the acoustic environment (you can easily test this with a microphone and proper software: Moving the mic as little as half an inch might result in a change in frequency response, big enough to be audible).......

Please cite your source for the evidence for the lack of memory for sound and moving your head an inch and that redering us unable to make real comparisons.

Fahnsen:woollyjoe:

in theory - does the sound quality differ using a CD transport Vs a media streamer both outputting digital into the same DAC?

Just wondering if I'm missing something in quality terms?

In philosphical theory everything is possible.

In theory that's relevant in this case: No.

The differences can be explained by jitter, it is the one definite variable between types of transport and DACs. How much jitter is present when the DAC recieves the data and how well it copes with the removal of jitter.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:The differences can be explained by jitter, it is the one definite variable between types of transport and DACs. How much jitter is present when the DAC recieves the data and how well it copes with the removal of jitter.

But what DACs are not able to cope with the jitter present? And will jitter be audible anyway? I think we're well into the world of theoretical philosophy here.

 

[idc]

Re jitter there is lots of science here http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/385137.aspx and can you cite the sceince behind your claims re memory of sound and head position?

 

[Craig M.]

Fahnsen:woollyjoe:
in theory - does the sound quality differ using a CD transport Vs a media streamer both outputting digital into the same DAC?

Just wondering if I'm missing something in quality terms?

In philosphical theory everything is possible.

In theory that's relevant in this case: No.

in practice - yes. even into my dac which buffers then clocks out the signal with just about zero jitter, there is a slight difference between mac with lossless and a cd transport - both through optical. i know there shouldn't be, but there is.

i preferred the mac.

 

[jc1972]

As i've said on another thread recently about the naim dac, During a demo for speakers i heard the sonos with lossless files going into the dac out through naim nait xs and it sounded as good, arguably better than when using the naim cdx2 ( £3325.00) we had the guy from the shop switching the same track, between the cdp and dac. I thought the dac was so good i will be getting one as soon as i've sold all my current gear!

also argued on the thread was that hard drives retrieve data from cd's better than than the mechanisms in cdp's.

 

[Anonymous]

idc:
Re jitter there is lots of science here http://community.whathifi.com/forums/t/385137.aspx and can you cite the sceince behind your claims re memory of sound and head position?

The thread you refer to is about as science-free as any cable discussion I've seen.

The fact that we have no exact memory of sound and can't compare sound samples with more than a few seconds between them, is common knowledge. So is the fact that your perceptions has more to do with what's going on in your head, than the physical nature of the phenomenons you witness. I would think you'll find most of it in an entry level psychology book.

That sound will change physically with only slight changes to the positioning, is something you can check yourself with a mic and the right software. Or you could find the phenomenon described and illustrated in a number of hi-fi discussion groups...

 

[Anonymous]

Craig M.:even into my dac which buffers then clocks out the signal with just about zero jitter, there is a slight difference between mac with lossless and a cd transport - both through optical. i know there shouldn't be, but there is.

How on earth can you know that? Do you have advanced measuring equipment? Have you carried out blind test series long enough to exclude lucky guesses?

 

[Craig M.]

no, it was far too noticeable. how on earth can you question what i heard? i'm pretty sure you weren't there.

 

[professorhat]

Fahnsen:The fact that we have no exact memory of sound and can't compare sound samples with more than a few seconds between them, is common knowledge. So is the fact that your perceptions has more to do with what's going on in your head, than the physical nature of the phenomenons you witness. I would think you'll find most of it in an entry level psychology book.

Shouldn't be too hard to find a source to back this up then...

 

[John Duncan]

Fahnsen:The fact that we have no exact memory of sound

Is that why I keep forgetting my lyrics?

 

[John Duncan]

Oh, and this bloke might wanna start looking for a new job.

 

[professorhat]

Astonishing to think he's got to that level without reading an entry level psychology book...