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Volume levels
- Thread starter tosh
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I personally find that most systems (those I've owned or had a chance to play with over time) always sound best when they're being worked reasonably hard and have had a chance to warm-up... but then I don't have any neighbours to annoy. That's not to say they don't sound good at lower volumes too, but they just seem to come alive when they're heated up and allowed to flex their muscles a bit.
Like Beemers and Mercs (or probably any other car for that matter), which seem to give of their very best when driven within a certain power band.
Like Beemers and Mercs (or probably any other car for that matter), which seem to give of their very best when driven within a certain power band.
Might be worth considering some attentuators in the leads from player to amp to allow the system to be run in its area of best sound.
Andrew Everard:Might be worth considering some attentuators in the leads from player to amp to allow the system to be run in its area of best sound.
+1 for attenuators, particularly if you have to listen at low volumes.
I quite easily start off at 9 o'clock without annoyance to anyone, and I'm more often at 10 o'clock or over unless it's a particularly loud recording.
+1 for attenuators, particularly if you have to listen at low volumes.
I quite easily start off at 9 o'clock without annoyance to anyone, and I'm more often at 10 o'clock or over unless it's a particularly loud recording.
Mine rarely goes much beyond the 8 o'clock setting and in the evening, it sits at the first notch on the dial, which is about 6.35 - powerful amp and the speakers are 89db, so pretty sensitive. Sitting at 8 o'clock's a treat, but it sounds good when at its lowest setting too.
Im so glad this thread exists! I was going to post a question on it today.
I live in a terrace and am forced to keep the volume down. My kit consists of denon 4010 BR & SACD player 4810 receiver and Monitor Audio speakers (Gold 20's). Sometimes i take an afternoon or day off just so I can be home when the neighbours aint.
My frustration is i get no thrill until i crank the volume (between -25 and -15db) - then it sings!..When its quiet, even with dynamic eqalisation engaged - it is just ok and i wonder where my 6-7 grands worth of sound is. yesterday I listed to katie Melua at -20db (1st two tracks on her latest album always remind me where the money went - scintillating).
I started to wonder what i could do to improve the situation (ie make it better at low volumes) - a new amp to interpose between the receiver and the speakers? I wondered what kind of money I would have to spend on dedicated HIFI kit to better the my 2k player and 2.5k amp - I do like the look of the rotel 1520 kit in this months mag but i dont want a 2nd system
am I alone? and please dont tell me I should have gone for pioneer SClx83 or arcam avr600
I live in a terrace and am forced to keep the volume down. My kit consists of denon 4010 BR & SACD player 4810 receiver and Monitor Audio speakers (Gold 20's). Sometimes i take an afternoon or day off just so I can be home when the neighbours aint.
My frustration is i get no thrill until i crank the volume (between -25 and -15db) - then it sings!..When its quiet, even with dynamic eqalisation engaged - it is just ok and i wonder where my 6-7 grands worth of sound is. yesterday I listed to katie Melua at -20db (1st two tracks on her latest album always remind me where the money went - scintillating).
I started to wonder what i could do to improve the situation (ie make it better at low volumes) - a new amp to interpose between the receiver and the speakers? I wondered what kind of money I would have to spend on dedicated HIFI kit to better the my 2k player and 2.5k amp - I do like the look of the rotel 1520 kit in this months mag but i dont want a 2nd system
am I alone? and please dont tell me I should have gone for pioneer SClx83 or arcam avr600
KBaudio:Sometimes i take an afternoon or day off... ...i crank the volume (between -25 and -15db) - then it sings!.. ...always remind me where the money went - scintillating
I think you've answered your own question! There's nothing un-musical about the Denon 4810 - it's very credible and musical in my opinion. To test that theory (out of curiosity), I tried my own Denon 4310 through my regular hi-fi speakers (these http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/cp-8871), and if I didn't already own a separate, dedicated stereo system, I could happily live with playing my music through my AV system... although I'd still need to crank up the volume!
I think you've answered your own question! There's nothing un-musical about the Denon 4810 - it's very credible and musical in my opinion. To test that theory (out of curiosity), I tried my own Denon 4310 through my regular hi-fi speakers (these http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/cp-8871), and if I didn't already own a separate, dedicated stereo system, I could happily live with playing my music through my AV system... although I'd still need to crank up the volume!
Another fan of attenuators here
Best value upgrade I ever made, some of the new DACs were overloading the digital pre-amp in my Cyrus amp until I fitted attenuators.
Also for those having the opposite problem - use the shortest RCA lead possible in your setup, 50cm max will give you suprisingly more level. A pure silver single strand design will help too. I get more than 2db extra level by changing interconnects.
Best value upgrade I ever made, some of the new DACs were overloading the digital pre-amp in my Cyrus amp until I fitted attenuators.
Also for those having the opposite problem - use the shortest RCA lead possible in your setup, 50cm max will give you suprisingly more level. A pure silver single strand design will help too. I get more than 2db extra level by changing interconnects.
plastic penguin
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tosh:Is your amp fulfilling its potential at a certain volume setting or does it make no difference. Mine never goes past 9 o clock, too loud after that for me and the neighbours.
Mines pretty consistant at all levels.*
* Have to confess I rarely have it above 9 o'clock.
Mines pretty consistant at all levels.*
* Have to confess I rarely have it above 9 o'clock.
Can a dedicated volume control be a better alternative to attenuators? It is quite expensive compared to attenuators, but is it a much better solution? I have my eye on something like this http://www.spl.info/index.php?id=127&L==
ediots:Can a dedicated volume control be a better alternative to attenuators? It is quite expensive compared to attenuators, but is it a much better solution? I have my eye on something like this http://www.spl.info/index.php?id=127&L
You can use a passive pre-amp as an alternative; in essence, a passive pre-amp is simply a variable (adjustable) attenuator. The trouble with attenuators is that they are of a fixed value - they may attenuate too much or too little. With a passive pre-amp, which is in essence nothing more than a high-grade volume potentiometer (usually an alps or similar), you can adjust the amount of attenuation, thereby perfectly matching the output level of your source component to the input of your preamplifier/amplifier. Passive pre-amps usually also offer you the bonus of an extra switchable input or two as well.
QED used to make/sell them http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/885 but the one featured there, about £60, appears discontinued now. I'm sure others may make them too though (I think Creek do/did one too). Do a google - there are a few good articles on this QED one which explains the benefits in detail, but can't be linked here as it'd infringe MR E's posting rules.
You can use a passive pre-amp as an alternative; in essence, a passive pre-amp is simply a variable (adjustable) attenuator. The trouble with attenuators is that they are of a fixed value - they may attenuate too much or too little. With a passive pre-amp, which is in essence nothing more than a high-grade volume potentiometer (usually an alps or similar), you can adjust the amount of attenuation, thereby perfectly matching the output level of your source component to the input of your preamplifier/amplifier. Passive pre-amps usually also offer you the bonus of an extra switchable input or two as well.
QED used to make/sell them http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.cfm/Product_ID/885 but the one featured there, about £60, appears discontinued now. I'm sure others may make them too though (I think Creek do/did one too). Do a google - there are a few good articles on this QED one which explains the benefits in detail, but can't be linked here as it'd infringe MR E's posting rules.
tosh:Just looked up attentuators and gather they control the power to the speakers? So the more power in the amp and the more sensitive the speaker= louder quicker on the volume dial?If you add an attenuator it means you will have to turn the volume on the amp more than before to reach the same loudness. Attenuators lessen the signal going into the amplifier so it must be turned up louder to compensate.
For example, instead of turning it up to 9 o'clock you'd have to turn it up to 10 o'clock for the same volume if you used an attenuator.
For example, instead of turning it up to 9 o'clock you'd have to turn it up to 10 o'clock for the same volume if you used an attenuator.
plastic penguin
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Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
These Rothwell attenuators are useful if you're finding your volume control is giving a much too loud sound before say 12 o clock - thus giving you a better range. There shouldn't be a massive change to the sound as these simply reduce output levels slightly in a very simple way. Obviously it's better in an ideal world not to use these and select amplifier/speakers that match very well for a range of volume options but its an inexpensive quality fix if you need it
These Rothwell attenuators are useful if you're finding your volume control is giving a much too loud sound before say 12 o clock - thus giving you a better range. There shouldn't be a massive change to the sound as these simply reduce output levels slightly in a very simple way. Obviously it's better in an ideal world not to use these and select amplifier/speakers that match very well for a range of volume options but its an inexpensive quality fix if you need it
plastic penguin:
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
Can't quite grasp the concept of attenuators. Can they benefit all amps or ones with an 'over active volume control'?
I think this here is a good thread on the subject.
Basically they reduce the output of the CDP signal so you can increase the volume level on your amp, and this in turn gives you greater control over the travel you have on the pot.
They are probably best suited to low volume listening; without them I couldn't get much past 8 o'clock without nuisance neighbours complaining about the noise! And any adjustment in volume levels you would be measuring in millimetres in travel on the pot. Now I've got the range on the pot from 9 to at least 10-30 which let's my amp do what it's supposed to do - play the music to it's potential. Couldn't live without them, personally.
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
Can't quite grasp the concept of attenuators. Can they benefit all amps or ones with an 'over active volume control'?
I think this here is a good thread on the subject.
Basically they reduce the output of the CDP signal so you can increase the volume level on your amp, and this in turn gives you greater control over the travel you have on the pot.
They are probably best suited to low volume listening; without them I couldn't get much past 8 o'clock without nuisance neighbours complaining about the noise! And any adjustment in volume levels you would be measuring in millimetres in travel on the pot. Now I've got the range on the pot from 9 to at least 10-30 which let's my amp do what it's supposed to do - play the music to it's potential. Couldn't live without them, personally.
audioaffair:
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
These Rothwell attenuators are useful if you're finding your volume control is giving a much too loud sound before say 12 o clock - thus giving you a better range. There shouldn't be a massive change to the sound as these simply reduce output levels slightly in a very simple way. Obviously it's better in an ideal world not to use these and select amplifier/speakers that match very well for a range of volume options but its an inexpensive quality fix if you need it
I actually travelled from Stratford to buy mine from you. Freezing cold, soaking wet, but well worth the sufferance all those months ago!
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
These Rothwell attenuators are useful if you're finding your volume control is giving a much too loud sound before say 12 o clock - thus giving you a better range. There shouldn't be a massive change to the sound as these simply reduce output levels slightly in a very simple way. Obviously it's better in an ideal world not to use these and select amplifier/speakers that match very well for a range of volume options but its an inexpensive quality fix if you need it
I actually travelled from Stratford to buy mine from you. Freezing cold, soaking wet, but well worth the sufferance all those months ago!
Cheers wireman - those are some very useful thoughts
Are you saying you need to achieve similar SPL's to hear your system really perform irrespective of whether its the stereo system or 4310? ie the issue is not system specfic?
Are you saying you need to achieve similar SPL's to hear your system really perform irrespective of whether its the stereo system or 4310? ie the issue is not system specfic?
plastic penguin
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Sizzers:plastic penguin:
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
Can't quite grasp the concept of attenuators. Can they benefit all amps or ones with an 'over active volume control'?
I think this here is a good thread on the subject. Basically they reduce the output of the CDP signal so you can increase the volume level on your amp, and this in turn gives you greater control over the travel you have on the pot. They are probably best suited to low volume listening; without them I couldn't get much past 8 o'clock without nuisance neighbours complaining about the noise! And any adjustment in volume levels you would be measuring in millimetres in travel on the pot. Now I've got the range on the pot from 9 to at least 10-30 which let's my amp do what it's supposed to do - play the music to it's potential. Couldn't live without them, personally.
Thanks for explaining. The Leema sounds sweet at low levels, and although the CDP does produce more output, I've no problems adjusting the volume accordingly...
Sizzers:This will probably explain it better than me.
Can't quite grasp the concept of attenuators. Can they benefit all amps or ones with an 'over active volume control'?
I think this here is a good thread on the subject. Basically they reduce the output of the CDP signal so you can increase the volume level on your amp, and this in turn gives you greater control over the travel you have on the pot. They are probably best suited to low volume listening; without them I couldn't get much past 8 o'clock without nuisance neighbours complaining about the noise! And any adjustment in volume levels you would be measuring in millimetres in travel on the pot. Now I've got the range on the pot from 9 to at least 10-30 which let's my amp do what it's supposed to do - play the music to it's potential. Couldn't live without them, personally.
Thanks for explaining. The Leema sounds sweet at low levels, and although the CDP does produce more output, I've no problems adjusting the volume accordingly...
i have found
laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock
cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock
turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though
laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock
cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock
turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though
plastic penguin
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smuggs:
i have found
laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock
cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock
turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though
Just a quick suggestion: Your turntable has to be at 12 o'clock to achieve roughly the same volume as the CDP, so why not just change your cartridge. If you buy one with a higher MVs. I have the same issue: my ClearAudio Cartridge is a fairly low MVs and it means I have to crank it up further.
i have found
laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock
cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock
turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though
Just a quick suggestion: Your turntable has to be at 12 o'clock to achieve roughly the same volume as the CDP, so why not just change your cartridge. If you buy one with a higher MVs. I have the same issue: my ClearAudio Cartridge is a fairly low MVs and it means I have to crank it up further.
Anyone interested in a passive pre amp should look at the Creek OBH-12 or OBH-22. The former can be had for around £100 on ebay now and it is a fantastic piece of kit. I used to pair one with Arcam power amps and it was a huge improvement over the pre section of my previous Arcam A32 integrated.
I have this volume issue with my SuperNait to some extent, I very rarely get past 9 o'clock and even that is pretty loud on most tracks. However I primarily listen via my Sonos ZP90 going digitally into the SN. I don't want to use the Sonos volume control as that will presumably deteriorate the sound quality - is there anything else I can do - an equivalent of the attenuators for a digital signal?? seems unlikely somehow.
It sounds fantastic whatever volume it's at, but I have to admit is sounds better when it's wound up a bit although I don't know whether that's because the amp is being driven harder, or because the recordings that have to be turned up higher are those which have a wider dynamic range and therefore sound inherently better anyway.
I have this volume issue with my SuperNait to some extent, I very rarely get past 9 o'clock and even that is pretty loud on most tracks. However I primarily listen via my Sonos ZP90 going digitally into the SN. I don't want to use the Sonos volume control as that will presumably deteriorate the sound quality - is there anything else I can do - an equivalent of the attenuators for a digital signal?? seems unlikely somehow.
It sounds fantastic whatever volume it's at, but I have to admit is sounds better when it's wound up a bit although I don't know whether that's because the amp is being driven harder, or because the recordings that have to be turned up higher are those which have a wider dynamic range and therefore sound inherently better anyway.
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