Volume levels

[Sizzers]

plastic penguin:smuggs:

i have found

laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock

cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock

turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though

Just a quick suggestion: Your turntable has to be at 12 o'clock to achieve roughly the same volume as the CDP, so why not just change your cartridge. If you buy one with a higher MVs. I have the same issue: my ClearAudio Cartridge is a fairly low MVs and it means I have to crank it up further.

That's the point of attenuators to reduce a high output voltage from the source relative to the low input voltage of the amp to give you a greater range and control of the volume.

On Smuggs' TT everything is working how it should be and the problem - and only if he were to consider it to be one - is with the CD. I'm not an evangelist on the subject but they work for me under my listening circumstances, but this will probably explain it better.

 

[wireman]

KBaudio:Cheers wireman - those are some very useful thoughts

Are you saying you need to achieve similar SPL's to hear your system really perform irrespective of whether its the stereo system or 4310? ie the issue is not system specfic?
Yes, I think so - or at least that's my experience with a variety of systems big and small. As I said at the top of his thread, I personally think that both hi-fi and AV systems perform at their best when the motor is really running in the middle of the rev band rather than just idling. My hi-fi typically runs at between the 10 and 1 o'clock position, my previous Denon 2310 and my current Denon 4310 I often run at anything up to 0db (no neighbours).

The attenuator and passive pre-amp scenarios I have tried and used when I lived in a city apartment where it was impossible to whack up the volume at all - it helps get more range from the volume control, but it's no answer to letting the thing really rip. It's the same with my mate's Bryston 7B/PMC IB2's, and another mate's Musical Fidelty kw system (both 900 watts per channel); they don't start to motor properly until you give them a loose leash... as you're also finding with your Denon 4810.

The attenuators or passive pre-amp idea might be worth a try for general lower volume day-to-day listening - you can always simply unplug them on those occassions when your neighbours go out!

 

[wireman]

Dan Turner: Anyone interested in a passive pre amp should look at the Creek OBH-12 or OBH-22. The former can be had for around £100 on ebay now and it is a fantastic piece of kit.
Yes, that's the one I was thinking of but couldn't remember, and IMHO sounds better than the QED one I mentioned previously.

 

[plastic penguin]

Sizzers:plastic penguin:smuggs:

i have found

laptop through dac-magic 10o'clock

cd player through dac- magic 9o'clock

turntable 11-12o'clock and that sounds awesome so may look at getting some rothwells myself £40 seems a lot though

Just a quick suggestion: Your turntable has to be at 12 o'clock to achieve roughly the same volume as the CDP, so why not just change your cartridge. If you buy one with a higher MVs. I have the same issue: my ClearAudio Cartridge is a fairly low MVs and it means I have to crank it up further.

That's the point of attenuators to reduce a high output voltage from the source relative to the low input voltage of the amp to give you a greater range and control of the volume. On Smuggs' TT everything is working how it should be and the problem - and only if he were to consider it to be one - is with the CD. I'm not an evangelist on the subject but they work for me under my listening circumstances, but this will probably explain it better.

Fair play - oddly, it isn't just my CDP that gives the most volume... my old wrinkly tuner pumps out more volume than the player, with the TV and DVD player producing the least.

 

[tosh]

So a certain amp with a certain cdp with certain speakers would give you perfect symmetry without the need for attenuators?

 

[Anonymous]

plastic penguin:Fair play - oddly, it isn't just my CDP that gives the most volume... my old wrinkly tuner pumps out more volume than the player, with the TV and DVD player producing the least.
Yes, you are right, high output actually is not a CD Player problem. That 2V standard was set long time ago, since then a lot of changes were made to mastering CD and. It is studio and broadcasting problem. For example, Enya's 1988 album Watermark has average cd rms level about -21 dB and average peak about -5 dB, and year 2000 album A Day Without Rain has rms level about -11 dB and peak about -0.5 dB. Here is our need for a 10 dB attenuators. And that is why I think that some better designed volume controls opposite to sometimes cheap volume pot which just doesn't work properly at ends of turning range is better alternative to attenuators.

 

[Anonymous]

tosh:So a certain amp with a certain cdp with certain speakers would give you perfect symmetry without the need for attenuators?
Probably to choose speakers with lower sensitivity is easiest way. Parameters for CD player and amps is quite standardised nowadays, I think. But maybe not.

 

[Anonymous]

tosh:So a certain amp with a certain cdp with certain speakers would give you perfect symmetry without the need for attenuators?Basically you only need attenuators in a few circumstances. My guess would be that the figure is around the 1% mark, if that.

 

[Anonymous]

If attenuators are so good then why don,t they use them in hi-fi shops when demoing equipment ?

 

[bretty]

johnnyjazz:If attenuators are so good then why don,t they use them in hi-fi shops when demoing equipment ?

In-store demos aren't done at low volume levels, so attenuators would be of no benefit in those situations.

 

[Sizzers]

johnnyjazz:If attenuators are so good then why don,t they use them in hi-fi shops when demoing equipment ?

As I said, they are best suited for LOW volume listening where you are most likely to have minimum range on the pot.

Before neighbour problems I never used them, and as I also mentioned without them I can't really get much past 8 o'clock. With them I get greater range on the pot up to 10 to 10-30 without any neighbour problems which means the amp has opened up with, to my ears, a night and day improvement in sound quality.

 

[Sizzers]

And it was Bretty who put me on to them. Cheers mate!

 

[bretty]

Sizzers:And it was Bretty who put me on to them. Cheers mate!

Welcome, fella.

You got the Marantz pair, then? How are they working out for you?

 

[Sizzers]

bretty:
Sizzers:And it was Bretty who put me on to them. Cheers mate!

Welcome, fella.

You got the Marantz pair, then? How are they working out for you?

Excellent thanks and well happy.

I've also got a Pioneer A-400 but don't use it to much as I need a remote to control the neighbours! I'm moving sometime in the New Year so hopefully I'll get more of an opportunity to use it properly then!

 

[Anonymous]

Thankyou wireman - I appreciate the response

 

[tosh]

Thanks for all the advice folks.

 

[ziggy47]

Hi, I have been reading this thread and am quite interested to try some Rothwells.

My question is this.......where would I fit them?, ie between which pieces of equipment, as I would need to quieten the whole system, not just bits, due to neighbours, etc.

Thanks for any ideas, cheers Richard.

 

[Anonymous]

Attenuators are also helpful because many volume pots have a channel imbalance below, say, 8-9 o'clock (there's been a couple of threads about this). My Rega had that problem, and I went through 3 pots before settling on an Alps blue: the first pot that had a good balance throughout the range. In the meantime I used an alternative solution: a cdp with variable output control (which is basically a built-in attenuator). To be totally honest I thought it sounded a bit muffled, and the sound really opened up once I had properly fixed the amp. But it's an alternative nevertheless.

Jack

 

[Anonymous]

bretty:
johnnyjazz:If attenuators are so good then why don,t they use them in hi-fi shops when demoing equipment ?

In-store demos aren't done at low volume levels, so attenuators would be of no benefit in those situations.
I,ve demoed a lot of hi-end hi-fi, and have always been told that when listening for the first time, you should have the volume at a low, comfortable level and then increase the volume. The reason being that if you can,t hear and enjoy everything at the lower volume then the system is not doing what it should be. In other words, you should not need to turn up the volume to hear everything in the music, it should all be there at any level.

 

[ID.]

johnnyjazz: have always been told that when listening for the first time, you should have the volume at a low, comfortable level and then increase the volume. The reason being that if you can,t hear and enjoy everything at the lower volume then the system is not doing what it should be. In other words, you should not need to turn up the volume to hear everything in the music, it should all be there at any level.

That's what you should do, but in my experience (usually not in particularly good demo rooms or with high end kit) the first thing the sales assistant/dealer does is ram the volume up because things inherently sound more impressive louder.

 

[Anonymous]

ID.:
johnnyjazz: have always been told that when listening for the first time, you should have the volume at a low, comfortable level and then increase the volume. The reason being that if you can,t hear and enjoy everything at the lower volume then the system is not doing what it should be. In other words, you should not need to turn up the volume to hear everything in the music, it should all be there at any level.

That's what you should do, but in my experience (usually not in particularly good demo rooms or with high end kit) the first thing the sales assistant/dealer does is ram the volume up because things inherently sound more impressive louder.
Then that is wrong and the sales assistant isn,t doing their job properly, i would walk out if some guy blasted music out of a system just to show me how loud it could go.

 

[ID.]

johnnyjazz:Then that is wrong and the sales assistant isn,t doing their job properly, i would walk out if some guy blasted music out of a system just to show me how loud it could go.

Yep, the back and forth as we each adjust the volume can sometimes be funny, but once I whip out a few of my own CDs they usually give up and leave me to it.