Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

[FennerMachine]

I've potentially got 100+ records if I want them, including about 30 James Last

You say that like it's a good thing? :O

Well, I like his music!

I have 7 compilation CD's of his music.

I understand he's not everyone’s cup of tea, including most of my friends!

 

[matt49]

Lorde - Pure Heroine is a modern recording

On vinyl it sounds fantastic & wipes the floor with the CD

That CD is horribly compressed, so you're not really comparing like with like.

This is one of the problems with the "debate". The comparison of digital and vinyl has two aspects: the medium and the playback system. On paper, CD is a superior medium, but in fact many CDs of the last fifteen years have been mastered to sound loud and their dynamic range has been compressed. So LPs may well in some cases have the edge.

A further complication is that when people talk about "music", what they often in fact mean is "the music I listen to". So someone who mainly listens to rock/pop of the last 15 years may well decide that vinyl is superior because s/he is comparing tolerably well mastered LPs with horribly compressed CDs. On the other hand, someone who (like me) mainly listens to classical music won't have this experience at all: the dynamic range of classical recordings is almost always better on CD than on LP. Classical CDs are mastered to appeal to people like us who have decent hi-fi systems, so they're not nastily compressed. (As it happens, there is very little classical stuff on the DR Database, but what there is clearly shows that classical CDs aren't spoilt by compression.)

Of course, you may well say: "why should I care if the CD is compressed or not? The LP sounds better and that's all that matters." But that argument doesn't work for me. I have the choice: well mastered CD or well mastered vinyl? And that's why cost becomes such an important factor for me. I can rip the CD losslessly and play it on a digital front end that cost me £300, and it sounds fantastic. Or I can play an LP on a TT costing an arm and a leg, and it may or may not sound as good or better.

Matt

 

[The_Lhc]

A further complication is that when people talk about "music", what they often in fact mean is "the music I listen to".

Just like what you mean then?

 

[Kamikaze Bitter]

Vinyl can sound really nice, but the medium is so fragile. Maybe it's my personality, but I just can not abide the clicks and pops from damaged records. It used to drive me into a deep depression when I found a much loved (and well cared for) record had become damaged. And in an extension to the famed 'wife' test – try getting a wife g/f to handle your vinyl properly – a short trip to her suing for separation on grounds on mental cruelty and unreasonable behaviour in my experience.

I was an early adopter of CD, and at the start it did sound dog rough. But we've come a long way and now most CD players do a pretty good. Also if you love music there are some fabulous bargains these days – for example the box sets made available for the Verdi bicentenary, and Britten centenary last year.

 

[matt49]

A further complication is that when people talk about "music", what they often in fact mean is "the music I listen to".

Just like what you mean then?

Of course.

 

[musical0111]

I have to say that there were two 'events' that allowed me to give up vinyl and switch to digital. Up until these, I was prepared to pay the rather large sums required for top class vinyl playback up until this time.

The first occasion, I was able to compare a top end SME30A/Koetsu/ARC Reference setup with a top of the line Wadia transport and a couple of DACs and with appropriate and pristine vinyl it was genuinly very difficult to hear a difference at all.

This caused me some thought, so I tried recording vinyl onto CDR, and comparing. In this case again their was no difference that I could hear. Several hi-quality systems were used, including my home ARC/Martin Logan system.

As an interesting followup to this we invited a couple of customers to hear our top vinyl system playing a familiar record. Of course although the record player could be seen playing, the music was coming from the CDR. When we lifted the stylus and removed the LP with the musiv still playing, the customers concerned were very perplexed and a bit angry at being 'conned'.

We didn't do it again. nice one also have the same feeling with both formats ilike both and cd can sound amazing as lps can as well,, but cd and streaming from qobuz is now my main music choice ,and so much user freindy and really sounds as good as vinyl imho so really its each to there own.. ps qobus is music lovers paradise go on try it try leonard cohen ten new songs a brilliant listen.

 

[BigH]

Anyways, one of those albums I have on both formats is Branford Marsalis 'Random Abstract'.

All subjectiv of course;

On vinyl; Involving, dynamic and with superb resolution througout the frequency range. Bass hits hard and clean, the trumpet is live (life) like hanging just in front of the speakers plane about man height. Drums have real impact and delicately struck high hats are just that, absolutely lovely to listen to. The whole thing is knitted together beautifully without that sometimes 'wrong' almost phasey spatial resolution that especially high bit players exhibit. Piano again is wonderful with texture and impact.

CD; Clean, orderly but 'flat' with no real depth perspective. High hats almost seem distorted and the signal just seems suddenly to end without that dissappearance into space. - There is more subjective separation to the players but the downside is the play apart rather than together, there is less cohesion which, to me anyway, distracts from the music. Piano tinkels away with no real passion, its difficult to make out keys being struck with different force.

I have no reason to believe the CD is not recorded from the original as it was produced by the same company but it sounds very different. Less enjoyable only because I also have the vinyl to compare with.

What I'm saying here is not that vinyl sounds better than CD, it doesn't always and to be honest, it doesn't matter to me sometimes, but its a source to be taken seriously. When it is good it is seriously good. It's longevity surely being proof enough but for those doubters out there, do yourself a favour and get a Turntable and some nice vinyl if you can.

So many starting collecting vinyl again can't be wrong.

regards

Are you sure about all that? Trumpet?

 

[drummerman]

Are you sure about all that? Trumpet?

Well spotted

Regards

 

[Al ears]

Yep. If it sounds like a trumpet there is something wrong with your system.

Get the drift though.

 

[davedotco]

Anyways, one of those albums I have on both formats is Branford Marsalis 'Random Abstract'.

All subjectiv of course;

On vinyl; Involving, dynamic and with superb resolution througout the frequency range. Bass hits hard and clean, the trumpet is live (life) like hanging just in front of the speakers plane about man height. Drums have real impact and delicately struck high hats are just that, absolutely lovely to listen to. The whole thing is knitted together beautifully without that sometimes 'wrong' almost phasey spatial resolution that especially high bit players exhibit. Piano again is wonderful with texture and impact.

CD; Clean, orderly but 'flat' with no real depth perspective. High hats almost seem distorted and the signal just seems suddenly to end without that dissappearance into space. - There is more subjective separation to the players but the downside is the play apart rather than together, there is less cohesion which, to me anyway, distracts from the music. Piano tinkels away with no real passion, its difficult to make out keys being struck with different force.

I have no reason to believe the CD is not recorded from the original as it was produced by the same company but it sounds very different. Less enjoyable only because I also have the vinyl to compare with.

What I'm saying here is not that vinyl sounds better than CD, it doesn't always and to be honest, it doesn't matter to me sometimes, but its a source to be taken seriously. When it is good it is seriously good. It's longevity surely being proof enough but for those doubters out there, do yourself a favour and get a Turntable and some nice vinyl if you can.

So many starting collecting vinyl again can't be wrong.

regards

Are you sure about all that? Trumpet?

:rofl:

A typo I'm sure. Everyone knows Branford plays clarinet........ :doh:

Or is it flugelhorn......... :?

 

[Tzutzu]

I'm old enough to have grown listening to fm radio, then to vinyl and tapes. I'm not old enough to get a hip replacement. I'm somewhere in the middle. I listen to my record player, my cd player, I listen to flacs and mp3s and sometimes I play a cassette tape. In my car I listen mainly radio. Life/music is beautiful. :cheers:

 

[drummerman]

Ok ... ok

regards

 

[davedotco]

Ok ... ok

regards

Easily done, don't fret it.

Just take the ribbing on that 'manly' chin of yours.......... :beer:

 

[CnoEvil]

People just like the sound of distortion.

Chris

Chris, which TTs have you owned?

I had a Dual kit turntable (I don't remember the arm but the amp was Sansui) in the early 1970s and then I moved up to a Thorens TD160 with a Hadcock arm (lovely AKG cartridge) in the late early 1970s (bought from Billy Vee in South London). I loved it and then CDs came out and I heard something that actually sounded like the original sound and I have never been tempted to go back.

I don't mind people liking the vinyl sound but anyone who pretends that it isn't simply distortion is out there with the fairies. You have to (a) distort the sound to get it on vinyl (RIAA filtering) then (b) the geometry means you can never get it back accurately and then (c) the RIAA to get it back can never 100% match the RIAA in. To repeat, you might like what it sounds like but it simply isn't accurate.

So guys please don't pretend. Just say that you like the sound, not that it sounds more like the original than a digital source because simply it doesn't and indeed can't.

Chris

PS This is the main problem with this forum. When it comes to this or cables or mains regulators or whatever, the protagonists simply don't have the globular objects to admit that their beliefs are just based on what they hear and have no basis in objective reality. I don't mind you thinking that vinyl is better just as I don't mind that there are people who believe in ghosts. I am used to a world where a good percentage of people live in a fantasy land.

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

Thx for the detailed response.

IME. Every source is a compromise, and as David has rightly said, Vinyl sounds better than it has any right to.....if you get a chance to hear a modern, well set up TT, you might just be surprised at how good "distortion" can sound.

Saying all that, I got rid well over 20 years ago and would never go back.

 

[BigH]

Going back to the OP album, I did play it on Deezer and for me its not the best jazz album I heard, sound quality wise and jazz is usually pretty good, so maybe its not a good comparison. Not really into modern jazz but do have the odd ECM which sound great on cd, like Tord Gustavsen Trio _ Being There, I don't have a working TT at the moment so I can't compare any LP and cds. I do have some Wynton Marsalis as well. For rock I would be trying something like Steely Dan - Aja, most of the cds are meant to pretty good.

The problem i had with LPs was all the other noises you get apart from the music and I got fed taking albums back because there were damaged, scratched mainly and that was before cds came out. The other problem I have now is the price of LPs, £15-£20 when you can get cds for about £1.

 

[stevebrock]

Lorde - Pure Heroine is a modern recording

On vinyl it sounds fantastic & wipes the floor with the CD

That CD is horribly compressed, so you're not really comparing like with like.

This is one of the problems with the "debate". The comparison of digital and vinyl has two aspects: the medium and the playback system. On paper, CD is a superior medium, but in fact many CDs of the last fifteen years have been mastered to sound loud and their dynamic range has been compressed. So LPs may well in some cases have the edge.

A further complication is that when people talk about "music", what they often in fact mean is "the music I listen to". So someone who mainly listens to rock/pop of the last 15 years may well decide that vinyl is superior because s/he is comparing tolerably well mastered LPs with horribly compressed CDs. On the other hand, someone who (like me) mainly listens to classical music won't have this experience at all: the dynamic range of classical recordings is almost always better on CD than on LP. Classical CDs are mastered to appeal to people like us who have decent hi-fi systems, so they're not nastily compressed. (As it happens, there is very little classical stuff on the DR Database, but what there is clearly shows that classical CDs aren't spoilt by compression.)

Of course, you may well say: "why should I care if the CD is compressed or not? The LP sounds better and that's all that matters." But that argument doesn't work for me. I have the choice: well mastered CD or well mastered vinyl? And that's why cost becomes such an important factor for me. I can rip the CD losslessly and play it on a digital front end that cost me £300, and it sounds fantastic. Or I can play an LP on a TT costing an arm and a leg, and it may or may not sound as good or better.

Matt

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

 

[cheeseboy]

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

that's a bit high and mighty don't you think? not all cd's are like that and by saying you don't by cd's you're missing out on a lot of good music, which is what it's all about isn't it?

 

[matt49]

For that reason alone I do not buy CDS

that's a bit high and mighty don't you think? not all cd's are like that and by saying you don't by cd's you're missing out on a lot of good music, which is what it's all about isn't it?

That was exactly my point. Of course compression is a problem, but it's by no means a problem everywhere. Many CDs are well mastered and have better DR than the same recording on LP. You can check this on the DR Database. And with classical music you can pretty much guarantee the CD will have better DR than the LP.

Matt

 

[lpv]

Vinyl has been around for a very long time. There's plenty of well worn vinyl out there that will end up in £1 or 50p bins and many of these are readily available in any number of used vinyl stores, hence their price. Others are so obscure that there's no chance anyone will buy them, so they're reduced to peanuts in order for someone to take a punt! A CD and its case could be mint, and it'd still only sell for a quid or two. My main point is there is no value to a physical digital format, which seems really odd, as it was touted as "perfect sound forever"!

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example.

It is understandable that those who don't like vinyl will be negative towards it, and the positive talk about it will grate on them. If that's the case, then they don't need to be part of threads like this.

same applies to camera gear. I paid £2000 for new Canon 5D in 2006 and it's worth 7 years later £350. I paid £1000 for new Mamiya 7II in 2001 and it's worth 13 years later £1200 - £1500...

true - I've spent A LOT on medium format film and processing in last 13 years but then I would never got the aesthetics I was after from digital..

 

[Womaz]

The Lorde CD mentioned above is a cracking CD.

I did not even notice it was a bad recording as I love the music on it.........surely thats the point!!

It sounds amazing on my hifi.

 

[Womaz]

Also the idea of not buying a CD as it does not keep its value is crazy. Really!!

Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value...

 

[Frank Harvey]

Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value...

Food is a consumable item and therefore has no value once purchased - a CD is re-usable physical item, so there should be some value to it. Look through your old CDs and see if there's anything worth more than £1...a CD collection isn't even worth selling nowadays as it costs you more to post it than you get for selling it. It's now become a throwaway format. I've got quite a few CDs I'd like to get shot of, but it's pointless, I've just put them in boxes in the loft. At least there is some value to vinyl that has been looked after, and even if it hasn't. Let's say you have a cvinyl and a CD copy of Ocean Colour Scene's Moseley Shoals - you can sell your CD for 1p - you can sell your vinyl copy for £50 minimum!

 

[Electro]

How much is a digital download worth second hand to the average collector :?

 

[Vladimir]

Couple of short vids in the mix. :type:

Digital vs Analog Audio Formats in Music - NPR - guest Sean Olive from Harman International

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yG7_x_x8ln4

Vinyl vs CD - Harbeth Audio's owner Alan A. Shaw compares

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k

 

[The_Lhc]

Next time I go to a nice restaurant I wil not eat anything as it has no sell on value...

My next door neighbour would tell you otherwise...