Vinyl vs. Digital (CD)

[matt49]

In any case, what would you, as a well respected dealer, advise me to do? How much would I have to spend on a TT to get a better result in my system than I'm getting from streaming from my NAS. This is a genuine question: I'm not looking for a fight. I just think vinyl looks really expensive!

If vinyl had increased in price in line with inflation, I'm sure they'd be much more than they are now. Most new vinyl is between £9 and £30, depending on whether it is a single or double (sometimes triple), whether it is remastered or not, or whether it is a collector's piece (coloured or special package vinyl).

EDITED: crossed posts. Yes, I heard an RP6. I thought it was pretty poor. A decent SME deck sounds fine.

Well, we all have our expectations and requirements. Although, an RP6 is far from poor, so whether there was something wrong with the system you heard, I don't know. Personally, I like the Michell Gyro SE (preferably with an SME arm), whereas others might feel that a Rega RP1 or Project Genie sounds amazing.

David, my question wasn't about the media, it was about the equipment. I described my system. I want to know what I'd have to spend on a TT to get decent vinyl replay through my system. I found the RP6 very poor. A £20K SME set-up was OK. But I'm reluctant to spend this much, when I could invest it in better speakers.

:cheers:

Matt

 

[the record spot]

4) If anything CDs gloss over stuff more than vinyl IMO.

I just think you're being overly harsh on vinyl. Personally I don't have any clear preference regards formats, but vinyl does offer the listener something different. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that's what makes this interest/hobby special, isn't it?

CD glosses over more stuff than vinyl? Again, I just don't see this perspective. None of what I hear is lesser on digital, else I wouldn't have dumped vinyl. Not being overly harsh on vinyl at all. My experience with vinyl goes back to the late 1960s, several hundred albums and a reasonable turntable (P3 and AT440MLa cartridge). If anything, all those years led me to come to the conclusion I did and the 20-odd years with digital have only convinced me that the latter is comfortably up there with the former. It was an easy choice for me and wouldn't have been if there'd be more daylight between the two.

I'm not sure the hobby is special because vinyl offers something different. I'd have thought that was something specific to each listener. Not really something I am looking for in a playback system really.

 

[Tear Drop]

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, however.....nah, nevermind.

Did you guys who love to contribute to these endless threads ever think to yourselves, 'Why am I wasting my time typing the same old rubbish when nobody ever listens or makes any attempt to think about other perspectives or ideas?', or 'I could be listening to music instead of doing this'?

 

[lindsayt]

So far, for the albums I've compared directly on vinyl and CD on my system the score is vinyl 5, CD 0 in terms of which has sounded more realistic.

If I were to start comparing compilation albums, CD would probably score a few points back.

Eventually I might find an original album that sounds better on CD than vinyl. Candidates include albums like Eagles Desperados, where they could have cut the grooves a lot wider, instead of leaving a run-off area big enough to land Concorde on.

Matt49, there are a number of good sounding Japanese direct drive record players you can buy for £200 to £400 these days.

 

[cheeseboy]

why does it have to be Vinyl vs digital, why can't it be Vinyl *and* Digital ???? :cheers:

 

[stevebrock]

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example.

David, don't bother this recording is appaling, so much siblance - it really is a poor example if you want to compare!Instead try Lorde - Pure Heroine, this sounds superb on vinylI went into my local Oxfam then other and I saw nothing under £2

 

[matt49]

why does it have to be Vinyl vs digital, why can't it be Vinyl *and* Digital ???? :cheers:

See my posts above re. cost.

In a VFM contest there can only be one winner.

Matt

 

[matt49]

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example.

David, don't bother this recording is appaling, so much siblance - it really is a poor example if you want to compare!

Yes, this will sound carp on vinyl or CD.

If this is to be a meaningful comparison, then a quick look at the DR Database is surely essential. Many rock/pop CDs are horribly compressed compared to the same on vinyl, and one ought really to compare like with like.

I can see that if you listen to a lot of recent rock/pop, the argument tilts in favour of vinyl due to its generally superior DR. However, that doesn't apply to classical, where DR is generally better on CD than on vinyl.

 

[the record spot]

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, however.....nah, nevermind.

Did you guys who love to contribute to these endless threads ever think to yourselves, 'Why am I wasting my time typing the same old rubbish when nobody ever listens or makes any attempt to think about other perspectives or ideas?', or 'I could be listening to music instead of doing this'?

I often am! I think it's the outdated mindset that vinyl is best and digital isn't that makes me laugh. Having come from a vinyl setup and moved away from vinyl, for a variety of reasons, none of which had anything to do with sound quality, except that CD was as good and in some cases better than that offered by LP, I think it's worth pointing out that 40 years use gives me some mileage to play with when it comes to my criticisms of the format. The two can happily sit side by side and should, but the whole "vinyl is just so much more lifelike" is a nonsense.

 

[chebby]

With enough money and space it could be fun to get some iconic old TT (Thorens TD150 or suchlike) as part of a 'period' system and a small collection of nice old LPs as a 'living ornament' in a 1960s themed room. I still get transfixed watching a good turntable in action.

But, for my present purposes, LPs and turntables are now 'archeology'. (Simply because barely anything i'd enjoy listening to would be available on vinyl.)

Before you all jump up-and-down, I enjoyed LPs for the best part of three decades and I appreciate the appeal. (I actually didn't stop getting the odd craving until I finally knocked it on the head by selling my remaining LPs last year.)

I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy turntables / LPs even if it's all new to them. It's just not for me any more.

After 31 years there shouldn't even be debates about this hoary old subject any more. To most people, especially those who are new to hifi, it's an argument their grandfathers started in the letters pages of magazines. (A kind of primitive and very slow 'proto' web forum involving pens and paper and stamps 'n' s###.)

Just like FM radio (distributed digitally since the 1970s), most of the LPs from the last 30 years, and re-issues of earlier content, will have come from the same digital masters as their CD counterparts anyway.

 

[andyjm]

People just like the sound of distortion.

Chris

...and that is indeed the point.

CDs are significantly better than vinyl in every technical aspect except maximum frequency response which is limited to 20KHz on CDs and potentially could reach 40KHz on vinyl. Anyone old enough to be wasting their time on this forum won't be able to hear much above 15Khz, so not much advantage there.

The truth seems to be that whatever mangling the recording and playback process does to music in a vinyl world is considered by many to sound pleasing - and I guess that is what this whole game is all about.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example.

David, don't bother this recording is appaling, so much siblance - it really is a poor example if you want to compare!

Yes, this will sound carp on vinyl or CD.

Fair test then?

 

[stevebrock]

I am out of this one !!

Facts & figures are irreleveant - I know what I prefer to listen too!

 

[the record spot]

Preference is all well and good Steve, statement of fact is something else entirely. Except in my case, 'cos I'm right.

 

[Frank Harvey]

People just like the sound of distortion.

Chris

...and that is indeed the point.

Maybe it is why many people don't like active speakers, and choose to go with passive ones, that produce 'horrendous distortion'. Most people seem to go with what they like the sound of, not something that may be more accurate tonally, regardless of whether it is technically better or not.

 

[stevebrock]

People just like the sound of distortion.

Chris

...and that is indeed the point.

Maybe it is why many people don't like active speakers, and choose to go with passive ones, that produce 'horrendous distortion'. Most people seem to go with what they like the sound of, not something that may be more accurate tonally, regardless of whether it is technically better or not.

Exactly

 

[matt49]

Let's take Adele's '19' album as a random example. Available new on vinyl for £16.86, and used from £11.06. Available new on CD for £5.99, or used for 84p. This is a six year old album. Even though I'm not familiar with this album, I'd be prepared to use it as a 'digital vs vinyl' example.

David, don't bother this recording is appaling, so much siblance - it really is a poor example if you want to compare!

Yes, this will sound carp on vinyl or CD.

Fair test then?

It'd be a level playing field, but the game would be ruined by the terrible state of the pitch. :shifty:

I just tried to listen to it (ALAC rip from CD). Steve is right about the sibilance. Deffo one of those cases where a good system makes a poor recording impossible to listen to. Fortunately I'm (ahem) not that keen on Adele.

 

[Covenanter]

PPS I actually think that most of the posters to this forum have no interest in "fidelity", ie reproduction of a sound that is close to the original, but simply in what sounds good to them.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, however.....nah, nevermind.

Did you guys who love to contribute to these endless threads ever think to yourselves, 'Why am I wasting my time typing the same old rubbish when nobody ever listens or makes any attempt to think about other perspectives or ideas?', or 'I could be listening to music instead of doing this'?

Yep I was bored and it was late. I shouldn't have bothered.

Chris

 

[The_Lhc]

I've potentially got 100+ records if I want them, including about 30 James Last

You say that like it's a good thing? :O

 

[MajorFubar]

Just like FM radio (distributed digitally since the 1970s), most of the LPs from the last 30 years, and re-issues of earlier content, will have come from the same digital masters as their CD counterparts anyway.

This what I was getting at in my previous post on page 2. There is nothing at all to be gained from buying modern recordings on LP, only the huge risk of losing quality because the LP is at least three generations removed from the digital master.

Through the wonders of digital distribution (and lossless FLAC and ALAC file compression), the facility now exists for enthusiasts to download music that is an exact bit-for-bit clone of the digital master sat on the mastering-engineer's hard-drive. Any differences between what he hears in his studio and what we hear in our homes are only because of the replay equipment and listening environment. We've never had it so good. Even the highest-quality MP3s and AACs have the potential to more closely apporoximate the original digital master than any LP ever could or can.

However this of course does not necessarily hold true for older recordings which were recorded on analogue tape.

 

[Frank Harvey]

Fortunately I'm (ahem) not that keen on Adele.

Nor me. It was just an artist and album that I knew would be on vinyl and CD, and being a modern recording, should favour digital.

 

[matt49]

Fortunately I'm (ahem) not that keen on Adele.

Nor me. It was just an artist and album that I knew would be on vinyl and CD, and being a modern recording, should favour digital.

the best comparisons will be with classical music: well recorded and mastered, wide dynamic range, natural instruments. Opera is particularly good. I'm going to do some more demos in the next couple of weeks.

 

[stevebrock]

Lorde - Pure Heroine is a modern recording

On vinyl it sounds fantastic & wipes the floor with the CD

However, I am not a Adele fan (missus) and the CD wipes the floor with the Vinyl - the Vinyl is shocking but so is the CD - Loudness wars run riot again no dynamics, painful to listen too as is Ceremonials by Florence.

Im out of here off to listen to some Moody Blues early 70s recording

 

[Alec]

I've been listening to Peter Bucks first album (only availlable on vinyl) via Youtube today. Can't find his second. Heh.

I'm hungry. Who is Waldorf and how do I get one of their salads?

 

[davedotco]

I have to say that there were two 'events' that allowed me to give up vinyl and switch to digital. Up until these, I was prepared to pay the rather large sums required for top class vinyl playback up until this time.

The first occasion, I was able to compare a top end SME30A/Koetsu/ARC Reference setup with a top of the line Wadia transport and a couple of DACs and with appropriate and pristine vinyl it was genuinly very difficult to hear a difference at all.

This caused me some thought, so I tried recording vinyl onto CDR, and comparing. In this case again their was no difference that I could hear. Several hi-quality systems were used, including my home ARC/Martin Logan system.

As an interesting followup to this we invited a couple of customers to hear our top vinyl system playing a familiar record. Of course although the record player could be seen playing, the music was coming from the CDR. When we lifted the stylus and removed the LP with the musiv still playing, the customers concerned were very perplexed and a bit angry at being 'conned'.

We didn't do it again.