hi there can anyone tell me if it is possible to use 2 intergrated amplifiers for biamping.I already have a c/a 640a v2 amp and i was wondering if i could use another exactly the same 640a v2 amp to biamp my speakers . I keep reading on the internet web sites you need to use a intergrated amp and a seperate power amps, with no mention of using 2 intergrated amps. many thanks kelly.
useing 2 intergrated amps for biamping
- Thread starter admin_exported
- Start date
In theory I suppose you could but would be very hard to get the volume the same for the low and high frequencies due to having 2 volume controls, if you want to bi-amp go for a power amp.
That's working on the principle that one amp does the bass and one does the treble. This way they stay out of each others power supplies. From what you're suggesting you'd be better off using one amp for the left channel and one for the right. Then it's just a matter of balance to keep the sound field centralised. You need a pair of Y phone connectors to split the signal from your source into two lefts and two rights. Mark Grant makes some very fine ones (I'm using them to bi-amp my front 3 but with a rather nice Audiolab power amp).
Good luck. I paid £30 for each Y cable (1m) and they're damn good quality.
Good luck. I paid £30 for each Y cable (1m) and they're damn good quality.
Thanks for the replies brianmcr and will.
But will what are these Y phone connecters, i thought i could connect my cd player via a interconnect
and then connect the 2 amps via another interconnect and away you go, am i wrong, tell me more about
these Y phone connecters and what do i connect them to.
thanks kelly.
But will what are these Y phone connecters, i thought i could connect my cd player via a interconnect
and then connect the 2 amps via another interconnect and away you go, am i wrong, tell me more about
these Y phone connecters and what do i connect them to.
thanks kelly.
Ok, bi-amping means using 2 channels of amplification for each loudspeaker. But your CD player on has 2 phono plugs at the back, one left and one right. As I'm sure you know, you attach a set of phono cables to connect the CD player to the amplifier. Except that in your case, you need to convert the 2 phono outputs on the CD player into 4 seperate signals, 2 for the left and 2 for the right.
To do this you need a cable that starts as one and splits to become 2, thereby taking the same signal to two seperate inputs on a stereo amp and allowing you to connect the treble half of one loudspeaker to one and the bass half to the other. Repeat with the other amplifier and you have bi-amped your speakers.
Hence the phono connectors you need look a bit like a letter "Y".
See?
To do this you need a cable that starts as one and splits to become 2, thereby taking the same signal to two seperate inputs on a stereo amp and allowing you to connect the treble half of one loudspeaker to one and the bass half to the other. Repeat with the other amplifier and you have bi-amped your speakers.
Hence the phono connectors you need look a bit like a letter "Y".
See?
[quote user="kelly rowlands"]Thanks for the replies brianmcr and will.
But will what are these Y phone connecters, i thought i could connect my cd player via a interconnect
and then connect the 2 amps via another interconnect and away you go, am i wrong, tell me more about
these Y phone connecters and what do i connect them to.
thanks kelly.[/quote]
Yes, you can do it the way you suggest. Just connect your CD player (and any other sources) to the first amp, then run a pair of interconnects from the pre-out on that amp to one of the line inputs on the second amp. Let's say tape in.
Connect the treble inputs on your speakers to the first amp's speaker terminals, and the bass inputs to the second amp's speaker outputs. Then play music through the first amp, setting the volume control to a comfortable level, select the tape input on the second amp and use the volume control on the second amp to balance up the sound - this also gives you a way of tailoring the bass/treble balance.
Once you get the right balance, mark the volume setting on the second amp, just in case it gets unset, and then leave that amp well alone.
From then on you just control input selection and volume on the first amp, and the second one is functioning as a power amp.
But will what are these Y phone connecters, i thought i could connect my cd player via a interconnect
and then connect the 2 amps via another interconnect and away you go, am i wrong, tell me more about
these Y phone connecters and what do i connect them to.
thanks kelly.[/quote]
Yes, you can do it the way you suggest. Just connect your CD player (and any other sources) to the first amp, then run a pair of interconnects from the pre-out on that amp to one of the line inputs on the second amp. Let's say tape in.
Connect the treble inputs on your speakers to the first amp's speaker terminals, and the bass inputs to the second amp's speaker outputs. Then play music through the first amp, setting the volume control to a comfortable level, select the tape input on the second amp and use the volume control on the second amp to balance up the sound - this also gives you a way of tailoring the bass/treble balance.
Once you get the right balance, mark the volume setting on the second amp, just in case it gets unset, and then leave that amp well alone.
From then on you just control input selection and volume on the first amp, and the second one is functioning as a power amp.
Just in case many members are reading this and go out to buy 2 matching intergrated amp.....I think 1 very good amp is by far better than running 2 lesser amps!
Yes your proberbly right mr Thaiman, but surely in my case useing 2 award winning 5star amps in a biamp
config, , , , , with all award winning equipment and accessories must sound as good if not better than a
very good amp.
Thanks Will Harris for explaining your theory with the Yphone connecters, and Andrew Everard for explaining
your well detailed theory. I will go with andrews way as ive got a spare pair of interconnects handy, ive also
got my new matching amp bought it yesterday, just running it in for a while before i biamp.
many thanks kelly.
config, , , , , with all award winning equipment and accessories must sound as good if not better than a
very good amp.
Thanks Will Harris for explaining your theory with the Yphone connecters, and Andrew Everard for explaining
your well detailed theory. I will go with andrews way as ive got a spare pair of interconnects handy, ive also
got my new matching amp bought it yesterday, just running it in for a while before i biamp.
many thanks kelly.
I believe and I may be incorrect that Naim have been known to use one stereo power amp for each speaker - so each power amp is driving both treble and bass (or treble and mid + a mono amp for the bass) rather than a stereo amp for each frequency range.
Presumably this is to split the current load more equitably between the amplifiers - i.e. the bass needs lots of current and this is the limiting factor, not the interference between the frequencies.
Having never had the opportunity to try it out - see the thread about upgrading my Audiolab - I'd be interested in a view as to which is "best". Convention says divide on frequency I think, but from a current supply point of view, that would seem to be wrong.
Thoughts from anybody who's tried it out?
Presumably this is to split the current load more equitably between the amplifiers - i.e. the bass needs lots of current and this is the limiting factor, not the interference between the frequencies.
Having never had the opportunity to try it out - see the thread about upgrading my Audiolab - I'd be interested in a view as to which is "best". Convention says divide on frequency I think, but from a current supply point of view, that would seem to be wrong.
Thoughts from anybody who's tried it out?
Well, the point of bi-amping is to improve the sound and if we believe that there may be a real difference to be gained and there may be real, physically meaningful reasons for that, and the difference here is swapping two pairs of cables around, the I suspect that no, life is not too short.
Now I suggest, respectfully of course, that you crawl back under your cold damp bridge.
Now I suggest, respectfully of course, that you crawl back under your cold damp bridge.
Perhaps I mistook the tone of your "You're not a jehovah's witness are you?" comment?
And you have, throughout that thread seemed to have taken a rather combative and itching for an argument kind of manner as has been noted by a few other people. Perhaps you're not trolling in which case I apologise, but if you read some of your own posts I think you may consider my mistake understandable.
Regardless, let us continue in a more polite manner from this point on.
As for the point of bi-amping - well yes it is doubling the available power, but that in itself is a good thing shirley?
If the available power (current perhaps a better term here) is insufficient to meet the demands of the music then what happens is clipping (not trying to be patronising here, bear with me) which, in effect, increases the treble load on the system (fourier transforms and all that) which in a single amplified system must be necessity go through the high pass bit of the crossover to the mid/tweeter.
In a bi-amped system, regardless of whether its active or passive, clipping from the bass can't get to the tweeter, it can only be attenuated by the low-pass filter for the woofer and then by the woofer itself, and must therefore be much less noticeable.
I'm not saying that going active isn't better still of course, but you comment that this is bi-wiring with two amps is patently incorrect.
regards (and I mean it!)
Jim
And you have, throughout that thread seemed to have taken a rather combative and itching for an argument kind of manner as has been noted by a few other people. Perhaps you're not trolling in which case I apologise, but if you read some of your own posts I think you may consider my mistake understandable.
Regardless, let us continue in a more polite manner from this point on.
As for the point of bi-amping - well yes it is doubling the available power, but that in itself is a good thing shirley?
If the available power (current perhaps a better term here) is insufficient to meet the demands of the music then what happens is clipping (not trying to be patronising here, bear with me) which, in effect, increases the treble load on the system (fourier transforms and all that) which in a single amplified system must be necessity go through the high pass bit of the crossover to the mid/tweeter.
In a bi-amped system, regardless of whether its active or passive, clipping from the bass can't get to the tweeter, it can only be attenuated by the low-pass filter for the woofer and then by the woofer itself, and must therefore be much less noticeable.
I'm not saying that going active isn't better still of course, but you comment that this is bi-wiring with two amps is patently incorrect.
regards (and I mean it!)
Jim
Jimmy, just because Oldphart doesn't believe in cables, doesn't mean he doesn't know hifi stuff.....his post made sense to me.
The I apologise - I'm not overly familiar with the film. In fact I suppose I need to apologise to all Jehovah's witnesses as well as I've just insulted all of them by implication. Sigh.
But I still think you're wrong about the bi-amping thing. Right about the "just buy a better amplifier" bit but perhaps failing to understand some of the more unfortunate financial implications of that for many of us mortals.
Essentially...
The amplifier presents its voltage amplified signal to a load and current/power happens as a magical consequence Ohm's law. The amplifier has limitations on power and current, and these are different - which is why few amplifiers manage to double their output as impedence halves. Voltage clipping is only part of the issue, and I don't think it's the problem we're trying to solve by bi-amping - because bi-amping isn't a solution for it as you quite reasonably suggest.
What the crossover does is provide high-pass and low-pass filters that vary that load according to frequency - the tweeter is attached to the other side of the high pass filter and the woofer to the low-pass filter. If I attach one amplifier to the high-pass only part of the crossover as in a bi-amped situation, then that amplifier sees a load that varies with impedence. It amplifies the entire signal just as you say, however, the low frequency part of the signal, while amplified in voltage just as much as the high frequency part, does not draw current/power because it faces a high impedance. If you think about it, if it did draw power, then the tweeter would actually have to move in response to that and would bounce merrily off your forehead (assuming a little speaker toe-in of course).
So a second amplifier in this situation will, as discussed in my previous post, be highly beneficial.
Remember also that we are not talking about the average level, we are talking about the transients. If you ever used a cassette deck (back in the days when Dolby was something you turned off rather than on) you probalby had the experience of trying to get music to sit above the noise floor while at the same time actually having some life left in it - something I never really managed to do until I discovered metal tapes where the headroom was just so much greater that the snare drum didn't just slide back down into the mix and everything became dull and lifeless.
And when you doulbe the volume, you need rather more than double the power.
But I still think you're wrong about the bi-amping thing. Right about the "just buy a better amplifier" bit but perhaps failing to understand some of the more unfortunate financial implications of that for many of us mortals.
Essentially...
The amplifier presents its voltage amplified signal to a load and current/power happens as a magical consequence Ohm's law. The amplifier has limitations on power and current, and these are different - which is why few amplifiers manage to double their output as impedence halves. Voltage clipping is only part of the issue, and I don't think it's the problem we're trying to solve by bi-amping - because bi-amping isn't a solution for it as you quite reasonably suggest.
What the crossover does is provide high-pass and low-pass filters that vary that load according to frequency - the tweeter is attached to the other side of the high pass filter and the woofer to the low-pass filter. If I attach one amplifier to the high-pass only part of the crossover as in a bi-amped situation, then that amplifier sees a load that varies with impedence. It amplifies the entire signal just as you say, however, the low frequency part of the signal, while amplified in voltage just as much as the high frequency part, does not draw current/power because it faces a high impedance. If you think about it, if it did draw power, then the tweeter would actually have to move in response to that and would bounce merrily off your forehead (assuming a little speaker toe-in of course).
So a second amplifier in this situation will, as discussed in my previous post, be highly beneficial.
Remember also that we are not talking about the average level, we are talking about the transients. If you ever used a cassette deck (back in the days when Dolby was something you turned off rather than on) you probalby had the experience of trying to get music to sit above the noise floor while at the same time actually having some life left in it - something I never really managed to do until I discovered metal tapes where the headroom was just so much greater that the snare drum didn't just slide back down into the mix and everything became dull and lifeless.
And when you doulbe the volume, you need rather more than double the power.
[quote user="jimwall"]Right about the "just buy a better amplifier" bit but perhaps failing to understand some of the more unfortunate financial implications of that for many of us mortals.
[/quote]
Buy right 1st time round is essential! If you are demo the amp with your speakers and was happy, there is no reason to be hunger for more power later on!
As for upgrading, too many people out there that doing it wrong imo. If your fund is tight, wait and save up some more rather than "what you are suggesting" buy another identical Int. amp and biwire! The improvment is will be there buy I rather spend that cash elsewhere.
FWIW, the Cambridge audio 740A should sound better than 2 of 640A put together (same price!)
[/quote]
Buy right 1st time round is essential! If you are demo the amp with your speakers and was happy, there is no reason to be hunger for more power later on!
As for upgrading, too many people out there that doing it wrong imo. If your fund is tight, wait and save up some more rather than "what you are suggesting" buy another identical Int. amp and biwire! The improvment is will be there buy I rather spend that cash elsewhere.
FWIW, the Cambridge audio 740A should sound better than 2 of 640A put together (same price!)
Just butting in here chaps. I agree with Jimwalls view of bi-amping and crossovers, for what it's worth.
I also agree with Thaiman that the 740A is a big step up from the 640A, IMHO, spot on. The 640A gets lots of praise, but I was a bit dissapointed - maybe my expectations were too high. Also, from my experience - I agree with Thaimans 'get it right' first time. I'll listen to his and others advice a bit more next time..!
I went from the 640A (see old posts of mine..!) to the 740A and was very pleased. Would be morbidly interested to know what better (new) amps I could have got for the dosh though.
I also agree with Thaiman that the 740A is a big step up from the 640A, IMHO, spot on. The 640A gets lots of praise, but I was a bit dissapointed - maybe my expectations were too high. Also, from my experience - I agree with Thaimans 'get it right' first time. I'll listen to his and others advice a bit more next time..!
I went from the 640A (see old posts of mine..!) to the 740A and was very pleased. Would be morbidly interested to know what better (new) amps I could have got for the dosh though.
"Would be morbidly interested to know what better (new) amps I could have got for the dosh though."
Just don't go there
Seriously - enjoy listening to music through the 740, as I think Thaiman said further above you made the decision to buy it for all the right reasons so it should be good enough, at least for a while. By all accounts it's a very nice piece of kit indeed.
One day of course, you will crave more, and that's part of the joy, and curse, of human nature. When you do upgrade you will be treated to hearing all of your albums for the first time again. Well almost. I can't understand why anybody would ever just go out and buy a top of the range system (well I can obviously) but what a shame to miss out on the fun of that "must get another album on must get another album on" feeling of a brand new piece of kit that gives you more than the old bit did. Well I think so anyway.
As for Thaiman's get it right first time - I also agree whole heartedly in principle, but often it's not so easy - reductum ad absurdem implies you never buy anything unless you can buy something that will fulfill all of your needs forever, which is kind of difficult to do usually. A level of pragmatism perhaps suggests that incremental purchase such as adding power amps to bi-amp/tri-amp/bridge-amps can really help. It might not get the very very best final result though I suppose. You pays your money, lots and lots and lots of it, and you takes your choice.
Perhaps I should start a hi-fi rental business?
Just don't go there
Seriously - enjoy listening to music through the 740, as I think Thaiman said further above you made the decision to buy it for all the right reasons so it should be good enough, at least for a while. By all accounts it's a very nice piece of kit indeed.
One day of course, you will crave more, and that's part of the joy, and curse, of human nature. When you do upgrade you will be treated to hearing all of your albums for the first time again. Well almost. I can't understand why anybody would ever just go out and buy a top of the range system (well I can obviously) but what a shame to miss out on the fun of that "must get another album on must get another album on" feeling of a brand new piece of kit that gives you more than the old bit did. Well I think so anyway.
As for Thaiman's get it right first time - I also agree whole heartedly in principle, but often it's not so easy - reductum ad absurdem implies you never buy anything unless you can buy something that will fulfill all of your needs forever, which is kind of difficult to do usually. A level of pragmatism perhaps suggests that incremental purchase such as adding power amps to bi-amp/tri-amp/bridge-amps can really help. It might not get the very very best final result though I suppose. You pays your money, lots and lots and lots of it, and you takes your choice.
Perhaps I should start a hi-fi rental business?
Ok im not a hifi expert at all far from it infact, all this technical talk is noncence to me.Thaiman has got me worried,
have i wasted my money completely on a new matching amp. Jimalls comments are a bit more encouraging. so
will i get any inprovement in the sound, if yes what will it be. As long as i get some inprovement that will do me.
whats an imo ( imho). by the way.
have i wasted my money completely on a new matching amp. Jimalls comments are a bit more encouraging. so
will i get any inprovement in the sound, if yes what will it be. As long as i get some inprovement that will do me.
whats an imo ( imho). by the way.
Hi Kelly,
Didn't mean to add to any worry for you! I have found that the grass is always greener - most of the kit I've bought, I've wondered if I should have got something else instead at some point.
I've no idea how a bi-amped 640 will sound - not enough experience. If you've got the amp, you may as well give it a try and go from there. Look forward to hearing how it does sound if and when you give it a try!
Didn't mean to add to any worry for you! I have found that the grass is always greener - most of the kit I've bought, I've wondered if I should have got something else instead at some point.
I've no idea how a bi-amped 640 will sound - not enough experience. If you've got the amp, you may as well give it a try and go from there. Look forward to hearing how it does sound if and when you give it a try!
I'm currently bi-amping my front 3 speakers with the 7 channel Audiolab but I could bridge the front pair instead as the power amp offers this option. Should I do this and conventionally wire the front pair instead of their current bi-amp configuration?
I'm currently bi-amping my front 3 speakers with the 7 channel Audiolab
but I could bridge the front pair instead as the power amp offers this
option. Should I do this and conventionally wire the front pair instead
of their current bi-amp configuration?
How hard would it be to try?
but I could bridge the front pair instead as the power amp offers this
option. Should I do this and conventionally wire the front pair instead
of their current bi-amp configuration?
How hard would it be to try?
The distortion products from bass clipping are high frequency.
Read it all again, you've completely missed the point.
Read it all again, you've completely missed the point.
The amplifier does not voltage clip on the bass because the clipping is not voltage related - it's current related.
The amplifier cannot supply the required current for the bass amplitude required for non-clipping voltage generated.
However, bi-amped, the current required is not anywhere near so great, in fact it's negligible, because there's a damn great big hi-pass filter cutting it off at 8dB / octave or probably more and the combined inductance at low frequency is, to coin a phrase, great. So the amp is not clipping when bi-amped. It's only clipping when not bi-amped because the load it sees is grossly different in the two cases.
As an aside, you do realise that for bi-amping you split the cross-over, don't you? That's not meant to be patronising but I'm really not sure from many of your posts.
As I said, read it all again.
Sorry if I'm being short but you really don't seem to grasp the basic physics of what you're talking about. And if you do have a better understanding than I, and I am wrong, then please please try to explain why in a useful manner. I'm completely happy to be wrong - it means I learn something.
The amplifier cannot supply the required current for the bass amplitude required for non-clipping voltage generated.
However, bi-amped, the current required is not anywhere near so great, in fact it's negligible, because there's a damn great big hi-pass filter cutting it off at 8dB / octave or probably more and the combined inductance at low frequency is, to coin a phrase, great. So the amp is not clipping when bi-amped. It's only clipping when not bi-amped because the load it sees is grossly different in the two cases.
As an aside, you do realise that for bi-amping you split the cross-over, don't you? That's not meant to be patronising but I'm really not sure from many of your posts.
As I said, read it all again.
Sorry if I'm being short but you really don't seem to grasp the basic physics of what you're talking about. And if you do have a better understanding than I, and I am wrong, then please please try to explain why in a useful manner. I'm completely happy to be wrong - it means I learn something.
Jimmy, I am gonna be quite rude here and please forgive me.
I think you do write a good post but they always very very loooooooooooooooong!
Normally I wouldn't read it if it that long! but like I said your ones are good and it would be cool if you stay active here.
I think you do write a good post but they always very very loooooooooooooooong!
Normally I wouldn't read it if it that long! but like I said your ones are good and it would be cool if you stay active here.
Similar threads
TRENDING THREADS
-
I'm a LiAV(!) and the future is Not Vinyl or CD, it's DAC / Streaming, what do yo think?- Started by Jasonovich
- Replies: 43
-
-
-
-
-
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram